The Problems Oklahoma Dealt With from the Ron Paul Campaign State Coordinator

[CapitalistSooner]

The absence was James Dunn, National Committeeman. He has resigned from the GOP in disgust. I was one of the 6 votes for Ron Paul (originally bound to Santorum, released when he dropped out to vote my conscience). The Ron Paul supporter bound to Romney from my district had his vote voided by our delegation chair, National Committeewoman Carolyn McClarty. Both of those who violated their binding and had their votes voided believed the extensive Rule breaking by the Romney campaign dissolved any obligation they had to honor their binding. The other person believed otherwise, and I will not fault them for that - they were all three trying to do the honorable thing.

 

[parocks]

The absence was James Dunn, National Committeeman. He has resigned from the GOP in disgust. I was one of the 6 votes for Ron Paul (originally bound to Santorum, released when he dropped out to vote my conscience). The Ron Paul supporter bound to Romney from my district had his vote voided by our delegation chair, National Committeewoman Carolyn McClarty. Both of those who violated their binding and had their votes voided believed the extensive Rule breaking by the Romney campaign dissolved any obligation they had to honor their binding. The other person believed otherwise, and I will not fault them for that - they were all three trying to do the honorable thing.

The numbers make sense. Ron Paul won 9 at districts. Some were bound to Santorum some were bound to Gingrich, some were bound to Romney. Santorum and Gingrich released their delegates. The Santorum and Gingrich people were allowed to vote for Ron Paul. The Romney people were still bound to Romney.

 

[QFish]

This is Qadoshyah Fish.

This is Qadoshyah Fish - the original poster about this topic. I was not aware that this was posted on the RPForums, otherwise I would have responded sooner. Being one of the 13 who took Oklahoma’s challenge to the RNC, as well as one of the 3 who was actually present in front of the RNC Committee on Contests and the Credentials Committee in Tampa, I am well aware of all of what went on in Oklahoma this year. This post I put together regarding the state coordinator is something that was long overdue. None of it is made up. It’s all facts. There are many more county coordinators (who were official volunteer coordinators with the campaign) who had the same experience as I did. I hope more of them will speak up about what they saw and went through. I will just mention a couple things and will be happy to answer anymore questions. I'm glad to see Steve Dickson responding on here also, as he is another one of the people heavily involved here in Oklahoma.

Parocks:
“There shouldn't be "grassroots" delegate selections. That's insane, but that's exactly what happened in OK.

The official campaign came up with a list, told everyone to vote for the list. (BTW, that's exactly how it worked in Maine). But, somehow the "grassroots" had their own list. I have no idea why that was, and who thought that would be a good idea, but it happened. And apparently, some Ron Paul supporters said "I want to vote for the unofficial list, that we picked." And that's insane. But it's what happened in OK.”

I find this rather humorous, because I know and have talked extensively with Eric Brakey (the state director from the campaign for Maine). I understand how Eric Brakey worked things in Maine and he did an amazing job. You know why you guys had such good success in Maine? Because Brakey went and got in touch with Brent Tweed who had been “the grassroots” for the past few years and then everyone worked together.

I don’t see why this is so hard for parocks to understand, but the above situation DID NOT happen in Oklahoma. Had that happened, we would have welcomed the campaign and their official delegate list with no problems. If the grassroots in Oklahoma wouldn’t have put together delegate selections, Ron Paul would have not won a single delegate in Oklahoma. The only time a delegate list from the campaign was put together was in my District, and I explained in the original post how that did not work.

We – as in the grassroots – wanted to and were more than willing to work with the campaign. But, when the state coordinator did things time and again to deliberately work against us, and was no help whatsoever for organizing and winning, what else were we supposed to do? We had to pick it up ourselves and go on, otherwise nothing would’ve happened.

Someone noted in one of these posts here that the success some states had – like Maine – had more to do with WHO the “official” person from the campaign was, not the fact that they were associated with the campaign. That is something important to note.

Parocks – “Just pulled out, because the people on the ground were impossible to work with. The people on the ground were so difficult they even sent a letter telling the official campaign to leave.”

This is a complete and utter lie. I would suggest you be careful with your statements, since you have no knowledge of what went on in Oklahoma, because you did not witness this. We sent no letter telling the official campaign to leave. We asked for Mr. Gerhart to be removed and replaced with someone else.

acptulsa – I look forward to meeting you on the 2nd.

Parocks - what is your name, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[sailingaway]

If you are going to ask a poster's name, please do it by PM, but I would personally discourage it. I wouldn't give you mine, on the internet. People have reasons to keep their posting history separate from their off line lives. During the primary GOP were looking for stuff to out and oust delegates with here and elsewhere, for one thing, but it is not the only reason.

I do think you guys did a terrific job in that parking lot, though.

And I'm the one who originally posted this here.

Parocks has a very black and white, 'my way or the highway' approach to things, and he knows it. It is just the way he views things.

 

[sailingaway]

The absence was James Dunn, National Committeeman. He has resigned from the GOP in disgust. I was one of the 6 votes for Ron Paul (originally bound to Santorum, released when he dropped out to vote my conscience). The Ron Paul supporter bound to Romney from my district had his vote voided by our delegation chair, National Committeewoman Carolyn McClarty. Both of those who violated their binding and had their votes voided believed the extensive Rule breaking by the Romney campaign dissolved any obligation they had to honor their binding. The other person believed otherwise, and I will not fault them for that - they were all three trying to do the honorable thing.

thank you for posting. we are all still putting pieces together for the real picture of what happened.

 

[QFish]

If you are going to ask a poster's name, please do it by PM, but I would personally discourage it. I wouldn't give you mine, on the internet. People have reasons to keep their posting history separate from their off line lives. During the primary GOP were looking for stuff to out and oust delegates with here and elsewhere, for one thing, but it is not the only reason.

I do think you guys did a terrific job in that parking lot, though.

And I'm the one who originally posted this here.

Parocks has a very black and white, 'my way or the highway' approach to things, and he knows it. It is just the way he views things.

Yeah, good suggestion. I'm happy to ask his name privately .

Thanks for posting this here. I want others to see it.

 

[acptulsa]

You LOST in OK

We WON in ME

And where were you in Tampa? Then what did it count for?

We got robbed close to home. You got robbed far from home. The official campaign couldn't stop either, no matter what you or we did.

I hope this thing isn't doing to your blood pressure what it seems to be doing to your blood pressure.

 

[sailingaway]

Yeah I think I'm more likely to side with this Allen person. Any sane person would help distance Dr. Paul from this: http://www.atruechurch.info/

Why? This is the first I heard about the Fish's religion. Unless they were making Ron's campaign about their private issues, as happens with all sorts of issues, not just religious ones, I don't see an issue. People of all religions, and none, support Ron Paul, because he thinks that is for each person to work out with their creator. Or not.

 

[sailingaway]

Just to be clear, I am Steve Dickson. The "group" he is talking about is one that met in Oklahoma City - it had been meeting for many months, and was not formed that night. Second, it was not formed to compete with the National Campaign, it was formed to help Ron Paul in Oklahoma City only (other areas had similar groups) and it started the year prior. I was not involved until mid-January at any level - the prior year I was finishing a degree in Network Management and did not have the time.

The "few dozen volunteers from 2008" is anyone who was involved in 2008. I am not one of those people, but many people I know were. We had lists we worked - we gathered names of people at precinct meetings, we had the donor list from 2008 and the volunteer list from 2008, we had other lists such as likely voters, but our small group was focused on delegates. The idea that we can't open an excel spreadsheet is laughable, but that is the usual throwing of insults from Mr. Gerhart.

The county coordinators were not approached and picked off, they left of their own accord after dealing the Mr. Gerhart and his delightful demeanor. There were no threats, nor was there an effort to remove Mr. Gerhart in a public way. That would have hurt the overall effort. When it became clear he was seriously incompetent and was damaging Dr. Paul, an appeal from many, many people was made to the campaign itself - in private. "They refused to put on a campaign" is laughable - that was not our job, it was his job. We're just regular people who were trying to help the candidate we believe in. Dr. Paul himself outlined a delegate strategy, and we employed this effort, to great success.

There are five Congressional Districts in Oklahoma. Each has 3 Delegates and 3 Alternates to the National Convention. While fighting the party establishment, the Romney, Santorum, and Gingrich campaigns, and Al Gerhart/the National Campaign, the "grassroots" managed to win 9 of 15 delegates, and 13 of 15 alternates. At the state convention, where 25 more delegates and alternates are chosen, we managed to bring over 700 people as delegates and had a majority on the first Credentials Report, the second voice vote amended one, the third illegally expanded one, but not the fourth and final illegally amended and expanded one. Even though we lost, we challenged them on their cheating and took it to the Committee on Contests, the RNC, and finally the Credentials Committee of the National Convention - AT OUR OWN EXPENSE AND WITH ZERO HELP FROM THE NATIONAL CAMPAIGN.

Tell me more about your hero Al Gerhart, parocks.

Welcome to the forums, in case I haven't already said that!

 

[fr33]

Why? This is the first I heard about the Fish's religion. Unless they were making Ron's campaign about their private issues, as happens with all sorts of issues, not just religious ones, I don't see an issue. People of all religions, and none, support Ron Paul, because he thinks that is for each person to work out with their creator. Or not.

Mmhmm. I don't really want to get into this but if I'm Ron Paul or his campaign and I do a background search of people trying to work in my campaign at state level, and I find that one or two are referring to people (including Ron Paul) as satanic for attending churches (that Ron Paul does) I too would not be likely to dignify them with a response. It's one thing to take a picture with a stranger from Stormfront, it's another thing to have that person working in any official position.

 

[sailingaway]

Mmhmm. I don't really want to get into this but if I'm Ron Paul or his campaign and I do a background search of people trying to work in my campaign at state level, and I find that one or two are referring to people (including Ron Paul) as satanic for attending churches (that Ron Paul does) I too would not be likely to dignify them with a response. It's one thing to take a picture with a stranger from Stormfront, it's another thing to have that person working in any official position.

Please show me where in there is says people who attend other churches are SATANIC. I must admit I didn't read every word, but it, like the Catholic church, like the Morman church and many others, seems to day you aren't SAVED unless you do it their way, not that you are 'SATANIC' and there is a huge difference between being 'in error' and 'worshiping the Devil' so I think you should be careful about tossing that sort of thing around.

 

[fr33]

Please show me where in there is says people who attend other churches are SATANIC. I must admit I didn't read every word, but it, like the Catholic church, like the Morman church and many others, seems to day you aren't SAVED unless you do it their way, not that you are 'SATANIC' and there is a huge difference between being 'in error' and 'worshiping the Devil' so I think you should be careful about tossing that sort of thing around.

Ok correction: They accuse Ron Paul of being led by satanists and that he's too stupid to understand the Bible that he read. Again if I were a candidate for office, I'd want NOTHING to do with this cult and would not associate myself with them. It sounds like they learned about them after it was too late. I'm just thankful no media latched onto this association while it mattered.

And furthermore for the cult that thinks "Jesus caused 911" like their banner says; that would mean to me that Jesus is an evil bastard from hell if that is true. I don't think that is true. Can you see why I don't want to talk about it? I've probably pissed some people off lol.

 

[sailingaway]

Ok correction: They accuse Ron Paul of being led by satanists and that he's too stupid to understand the Bible that he read. Again if I were a candidate for office, I'd want NOTHING to do with this cult and would not associate myself with them. It sounds like they learned about them after it was too late. I'm just thankful no media latched onto this association while it mattered.

And furthermore for the cult that thinks "Jesus caused 911" like their banner says; that would mean to me that Jesus is an evil bastard from hell if that is true. I don't think that is true. Can you see why I don't want to talk about it? I've probably pissed some people off lol.

show me where they say ANYTHING about 'Satanists' which would be those who worship the Devil, as opposed to giving their opinion that other churches are simply wrong.

And where are you seeing this 'Jesus caused 9/11' on this web site?

Are you thinking of some other group?

 

[sailingaway]

I did control F to search for satan and came up with 'satanic facade' as where the teachings of false teachers appear to offer salvation but in the opinion of the writer do not, it doesn't seem the author is accusing the false teachers of being Satanic but saying the appearance of sanctity where there is none is a satanic facade. The other two places are in mentioning Satan, and in a quote about one person they disagree with thinking the road to heaven must be broad because otherwise Satan's dominion would be bigger than God's (in their opinion) and this person thinks that can't be so.

It is arguing the merits of theology, not calling anyone Satanists.

 

[fr33]

show me where they say ANYTHING about 'Satanists' which would be those who worship the Devil, as opposed to giving their opinion that other churches are simply wrong.

From the homepage:
"Yet, a well or a cloud without water gives a false impression, and false teachers do this well. They fool the masses into thinking God is using them to bring people to Christ, but it is all a Satanic facade"

And where are you seeing this 'Jesus caused 9/11' on this web site?

Are you thinking of some other group?

Nope it's on the home page banner:

Their whole cult is based on a murderous vengeful God and his son being just as bad. I find it hilarious that they don't like Fred Phelps all while acting just like him.

 

[parocks]

If you are going to ask a poster's name, please do it by PM, but I would personally discourage it. I wouldn't give you mine, on the internet. People have reasons to keep their posting history separate from their off line lives. During the primary GOP were looking for stuff to out and oust delegates with here and elsewhere, for one thing, but it is not the only reason.

I do think you guys did a terrific job in that parking lot, though.

And I'm the one who originally posted this here.

Parocks has a very black and white, 'my way or the highway' approach to things, and he knows it. It is just the way he views things.

Yeah, sailingaway is pretty accurate here. I'm not 100% that way all the time, but on this matter, which crops up a lot, I have a view that diverges from most here.

I've noted that the "grassroots" not doing what the official campaign wants happens fairly often. And the overall opinion here is that not doing what the campaign wants is a good thing. People here generally take the side of the people who are doing something the campaign doesn't want, and top campaign officials are routinely attacked here.

I'm against both of those things. So, when I see them, I typically respond in a predictable manner.

I'm arguing in favor of one OK person or another, just arguing that you should be working with the person that the campaign picked. This isn't the first time this has happened. It really shouldn't happen ever.

 

[parocks]

And where were you in Tampa? Then what did it count for?

We got robbed close to home. You got robbed far from home. The official campaign couldn't stop either, no matter what you or we did.

I hope this thing isn't doing to your blood pressure what it seems to be doing to your blood pressure.

Maybe. Don't worry about my blood pressure. I could argue the differences between x and y. But I won't.

 

[sailingaway]

From the homepage:
"Yet, a well or a cloud without water gives a false impression, and false teachers do this well. They fool the masses into thinking God is using them to bring people to Christ, but it is all a Satanic facade"

Nope it's on the home page banner:

Their whole cult is based on a murderous vengeful God and his son being just as bad. I find it hilarious that they don't like Fred Phelps all while acting just like him.

I addressed the 'satanic facade', I don't think they are calling anyone satanic, but are calling the 'facade' of salvation a 'satanic' trick,not by the erroneous teachers but by a spirit that misled them (in the view of the author).

Regarding the 9/11 sign, I must admit I don't get that. However, the grass roots were picked as official campaign themselves, it doesn't sound like they were objected to, on the grounds of their faith or anything else. It is the middle management guy people seemed to object to.

 

[sailingaway]

Yeah, sailingaway is pretty accurate here. I'm not 100% that way all the time, but on this matter, which crops up a lot, I have a view that diverges from most here.

I've noted that the "grassroots" not doing what the official campaign wants happens fairly often. And the overall opinion here is that not doing what the campaign wants is a good thing. People here generally take the side of the people who are doing something the campaign doesn't want, and top campaign officials are routinely attacked here.

I'm against both of those things. So, when I see them, I typically respond in a predictable manner.

I'm arguing in favor of one OK person or another, just arguing that you should be working with the person that the campaign picked. This isn't the first time this has happened. It really shouldn't happen ever.

I think the default should be doing what the campaign wants, until they lost our trust, which was too late, unfortunately. But people on the ground see more than we do, and my default is also to trust the people on the ground.

 

[acptulsa]

All this scrutiny of the Fishes is nothing but a distraction. Their main claim to fame is that the lady was the first to air grievances against Gerhart, near as I can tell.

We had a movement for liberty underway, and it had very good, trustworthy and capable leadership under people like Charles Key--people who were familiar with the 'good ol' boy' network that is entrenched in this state and were dedicated to curbing its abuses. Gerhart popped up with his volunteer position and a dose of Collinsesque self-importance, and assaulted the free market of ideas with, well, no good ideas.

Key led, we followed, Gerhart got out of the way.