The Problems Oklahoma Dealt With from the Ron Paul Campaign State Coordinator

[parocks]

You need to at least know enough to know if your alleged universal principle even is being applied correctly.

State director was not sent, was chosen, out of an available pool of local Ron Paul supporters. Jesse Benton (or whoever) does not know anything about Oklahoma. He doesn't really know who the best person would be. He (hopefully) just does his best to choose someone suitable.

If it turns out the person he picks is not doing a good job, even if just being lazy but certainly if he's acting all crazy and weird and messing things up, then he would want to be informed so he can appoint someone else. So, he was informed. The other campaign coordinators in the state sent a letter conveying this information. They were official campaign just as much as this other guy was. The official campaign people sent a letter complaining about the incompetence of their middle manager. That's the sensible thing to happen. That's how organizations work. You are the one arguing against and criticizing the official campaign in this instance, parocks.

I'm taking the OP on DP at their word, that what they're saying is accurate. And I'm arguing against what happened, according to them. They could be making all that up. I have no way of knowing this.

Well, "sent" doesn't have to come from out of state. Picked = sent. Gerhart was appointed by the official campaign. That makes Gerhart and the OP, both official campaign, even if they're from in state.

 

[parocks]

For all I know right now, the volunteer 'state director' was trying to get District Two to do things at odds with what activists from the rest of the state were going to do at the state convention, and the national campaign was too distracted to police him. I'm not saying that's the case, but I feel it's possible. Stranger things have happened in the last six years.

If not putting up with being divided and conquered makes the rural Eastern Oklahoma Ron Paul supporters 'unruly' in your eyes, then by all means they're unruly. And if they wind up in a FEMA camp, they'll be even more unruly. I guarantee it.

Meanwhile, since we seem not to have any Okies from Muskogee on the board at the moment, I'll see what facts I can discover. Since you can't wait that long, feel free to rush to judgement without the bothersome burden of facts. It's still sort of a free country.



Oklahoma is also no exception to the rule that many aren't particularaly happy with the official campaign. I suppose you're now going to tell me that some skepticism is healthy, and other skepticism is unhealthy. But I doubt you're going to tell me anything specific as to how to make a skeptic into a part-time skeptic.

But I do know this. If an 'officially approved' mole were to tell some of us to support the Romney slate of delegates, that is one specific detail that will make us unruly indeed. Whether you care about that specificity or not. And if you think it impossible, you're just silly.

The campaign couldn't even micromanage it's own staff, much less Cherokee County, Oklahoma. And here's a bit of specificity for you to ignore--Oklahomans learned a very long time ago that when someone on the national level says 'one size fits all', they mean 'one size fits Pennsylvania'. They aren't talking about flyover country. Why the hell do you think we're so libertarian?

Well, I was in PA in 2007, I'm in Maine now. Maine is also a Convention state. PA isn't. PA has direct election of delegates.

I'm just throwing out the idea that you should follow the orders of the state director. Apparently Ron Paul fans don't really like that idea. Many seem to think that instructions from the state director are optional, only to be followed when you want to.

 

[Okie RP fan]

Why waste the time with the difficult Oklahomans?

You still don't understand that the grassroots is supposed to do what the campaign says/

You think that it's some sort of debatable point.

What "the grassroots" did was completely unacceptable. And you don't get that.

Not sure what you are meaning here, but, we were punched and called Obama lovers by our own governor. All because we were fighting for a fair convention.

 

[Matthew5]

Well, I was in PA in 2007, I'm in Maine now. Maine is also a Convention state. PA isn't. PA has direct election of delegates.

I'm just throwing out the idea that you should follow the orders of the state director. Apparently Ron Paul fans don't really like that idea. Many seem to think that instructions from the state director are optional, only to be followed when you want to.

In all the campaign coordinators I dealt with, this was never the case. We were asked to do many things against our better judgement and we notified national. 27 people sent that letter and I'm here confirming that orders were followed within the best of our judgment.

What more do you need? Or would you like to still be a doubting Thomas?

 

[sailingaway]

Well, I was in PA in 2007, I'm in Maine now. Maine is also a Convention state. PA isn't. PA has direct election of delegates.

I'm just throwing out the idea that you should follow the orders of the state director. Apparently Ron Paul fans don't really like that idea. Many seem to think that instructions from the state director are optional, only to be followed when you want to.

Or that it depends on the state director, his competence and degree of self aggrandizement, or whatever.

I agree that should be the DEFAULT position, but I don't think you have to watch the campaign coordinator throw the candidate's campaign away.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

Questioning authority, good.

 

[parocks]

Not sure what you are meaning here, but, we were punched and called Obama lovers by our own governor. All because we were fighting for a fair convention.

Not talking about that. Only talking about Ron Paul supporters not working for the campaign. Not talking about all things in OK.

 

[parocks]

In all the campaign coordinators I dealt with, this was never the case. We were asked to do many things against our better judgement (some things illegal, technically) and we notified national. 27 people sent that letter and I'm here confirming that orders were followed within the best of our judgment.

What more do you need? Or would you like to still be a doubting Thomas?

What am I doubting. I'm don't think the OP on the DP was lying about what they did.

There's a general tendency in a lot of places to not do what they're told to do.

Did the national campaign tell the "grassroots" to come up with their own slate of delegates?

No. That's what the official campaign does. In OK, that was Gerhart.

Gerhart was being accused of not picking the right people. That's a judgment call, and there's no right procedure for that.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm taking the OP on DP at their word, that what they're saying is accurate. And I'm arguing against what happened, according to them. They could be making all that up. I have no way of knowing this.

You did not read the OP closely enough. And then you didn't read my post closely enough. I even knew exactly which part you would ignore/miss and I would have to repeat ten times, so I bolded it. The people who sent the letter to the national campaign headquarters, these people were official campaign. Gerhart was also official campaign, fine. But no more nor less official than Mrs. Fish & Co.

Now, what could you come up with to say was he more official? Perhaps he was paid? No, I don't think so. Oklahoma wasn't part of the national strategy. One volunteer was just chosen to be the head volunteer. Even if he was paid, though -- and at this point you have no reason whatsoever to think he was; no evidence at all -- I don't think that makes him more official.

What we have here is:

People in Oklahoma who are "Official Campaign"
One of the "Official Campaign" people in Oklahoma acting crazy and counter-productively
The rest of the people in Oklahoma who are "Official Campaign" complaining about it to their superiors.

You, naturally, want to defend the "Official Campaign". However, in this particular case you are actually attacking the Oklahoma "Official Campaign". You are defending one particular part of the OK "Official Campaign" -- one loony person. You are attacking the rest of the OK "Official Campaign". So stop attacking the Official Campaign.

 

[parocks]

You did not read the OP closely enough. And then you didn't read my post closely enough. I even knew exactly which part you would ignore/miss and I would have to repeat ten times, so I bolded it. The people who sent the letter to the national campaign headquarters, these people were official campaign. Gerhart was also official campaign, fine. But no more nor less official than Mrs. Fish & Co.

Now, what could you come up with to say was he more official? Perhaps he was paid? No, I don't think so. Oklahoma wasn't part of the national strategy. One volunteer was just chosen to be the head volunteer. Even if he was paid, though -- and at this point you have no reason whatsoever to think he was; no evidence at all -- I don't think that makes him more official.

What we have here is:

People in Oklahoma who are "Official Campaign"
One of the "Official Campaign" people in Oklahoma acting crazy and counter-productively
The rest of the people in Oklahoma who are "Official Campaign" complaining about it to their superiors.

You, naturally, want to defend the "Official Campaign". However, in this particular case you are actually attacking the Oklahoma "Official Campaign". You are defending one particular part of the OK "Official Campaign" -- one loony person. You are attacking the rest of the OK "Official Campaign". So stop attacking the Official Campaign.

I think what I did there was respond, but without responding. I think that I didn't want to get into the philosophical question of "when one person is official campaign and other, more numerous, but lower people are official campaign" which is the official campaign? It's a philosophical question. It doesn't have a clear answer.

It appears that the National Ron Paul campaign wanted very little to do with Oklahoma after that. But again, it is true that arguments can be made on both sides of this.

I outlined a few specific actions that shouldn't have been done.

 

[acptulsa]

Well, I was in PA in 2007, I'm in Maine now. Maine is also a Convention state. PA isn't. PA has direct election of delegates.

I'm just throwing out the idea that you should follow the orders of the state director. Apparently Ron Paul fans don't really like that idea. Many seem to think that instructions from the state director are optional, only to be followed when you want to.

And Ron Paul spent his entire Congressional career suffering under the delusion that instructions from the party leadership are optional, only to be followed if it's actually the right thing to do...

And that's why we trust him, too.

 

[parocks]

And Ron Paul spent his entire Congressional career suffering under the delusion that instructions from the party leadership are optional, only to be followed if it's actually the right thing to do...

And that's why we trust him, too.

The Ron Paul Campaign is not the equivalent to the RNC, to the party leadership.

Ron Paul is often opposed to the party leadership. Ron Paul often wants something different from the party leadership.
We should not be working against the Ron Paul Campaign.

 

[LibertyEagle]

And Ron Paul spent his entire Congressional career suffering under the delusion that instructions from the party leadership are optional, only to be followed if it's actually the right thing to do...

Not in all cases. Remember that he said he couldn't endorse against a sitting Republican that was running for re-election. But, I agree with parocks that it is an entirely different scenario, anyway.

Honestly, I don't understand this idea that it will somehow work out to work against a candidate's campaign. There is no way that such a situation will end up in a win.

 

[acptulsa]

Honestly, I don't understand this idea that it will somehow work out to work against a candidate's campaign. There is no way that such a situation will end up in a win.

Once upon a time, Collins considered himself 'the official campaign'. The problem with having blind faith is Ron Paul is no micromanager. So, I shall keep an open mind until I get some facts.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I think that I didn't want to get into the philosophical question of "when one person is official campaign and other, more numerous, but lower people are official campaign" which is the official campaign? It's a philosophical question. It doesn't have a clear answer.

What are you talking about? It is not a philosophical question! It is a highly mundane, down-to-earth, practical question, and one that has a painfully obvious, indisputable answer. It only becomes "philosophical" when one has a bizarre quasi-religious devotion to all things Official Campaign. Then, yes, it's a theological issue, like defining whether it's OK to worship the Holy Ghost or making a flowchart of the 7 different levels of angels in heaven.

I outlined a few specific actions that shouldn't have been done.

And you are absolutely wrong. When you are part of an organization, like a campaign, and your supervisor is a lunatic, if there is an organizational level above him you complain to that level. That is how the world works. That is how Official Campaigns work. You are asserting that the world should not work that way. That that's the wrong way. You are asserting, very strongly and repeatedly, that workers in the official campaign should never ever try to get an incompetent supervisor terminated.*

Of course, when you have a campaign you can run it that way. Every manager of every boondock branch office can be set in stone, appointed for life, and above reproach as Parock's One True Representative in Timbuktu. You can make all your workers live in barracks and get up at 5 AM every morning to chant and do calisthenics in the street. You can have the most rigid, top-down campaign structure ever conceived.

* I'm glad you did, by the way. Having a second opposing point of view made for an interesting conversation and debate. And certainly no one else would have taken the extreme contrarian stance like you. Without you, this thread would be lame and boring.

 

[acptulsa]

Well now. Al has weighed in at DP. And what did we learn? We learned that Al decided he needed to distance the movement from the Fishes because he felt (and perhaps not without some justification) that their religious views--and maybe their ethnicity--would be disconcerting to some Oklahoma Republicans. And this led to a pissing contest.

What it did not lead to was District 2 being out of step with the rest of the state during the convention fight. I'm also extremely doubtful that it led to one ounce less effort in the way of canvassing or outreach in Wagoner, Tahlequah, Jay, or anywhere else.

Shakespeare said it best. Ten pages of ado about nothing.

 

[kathy88]

The Ron Paul Campaign is not the equivalent to the RNC, to the party leadership.

Ron Paul is often opposed to the party leadership. Ron Paul often wants something different from the party leadership.
We should not be working against the Ron Paul Campaign.

Yes, the Ron Paul Campaign, run by Jesse "I hate the grassroots, but I'm going to use that "grassroots" thing for my next neo-con gig" Benton. Don't go against that.

 

[fr33]

Well now. Al has weighed in at DP. And what did we learn? We learned that Al decided he needed to distance the movement from the Fishes because he felt (and perhaps not without some justification) that their religious views--and maybe their ethnicity--would be disconcerting to some Oklahoma Republicans. And this led to a pissing contest.

What it did not lead to was District 2 being out of step with the rest of the state during the convention fight. I'm also extremely doubtful that it led to one ounce less effort in the way of canvassing or outreach in Wagoner, Tahlequah, Jay, or anywhere else.

Shakespeare said it best. Ten pages of ado about nothing.

Yeah I think I'm more likely to side with this Allen person. Any sane person would help distance Dr. Paul from this: http://www.atruechurch.info/

 

[acptulsa]

Yeah I think I'm more likely to side with this Allen person. Any sane person would help distance Dr. Paul from this: http://www.atruechurch.info/

I would distance Ron Paul from that in a New York minute. But I would distance him from religious intolerance even more quickly. Fortunately, none of this amounted to a hill of beans until the Fishes went attention whore over the deal. That said, at least they waited until after the fact to do it.

The whole thing makes me bored. There were worse things this past election cycle...

 

[CapitalistSooner]

On January 18th the grassroots (people who volunteer, and are not affiliated with an official campaign) chose State Rep. Charles Key and former State Senator Randy Brogdon as state co-Chairs for the Ron Paul Grassroots effort in Oklahoma. There was no official campaign person we could find at this time. Shortly after this, the Ron Paul Campaign appointed Al Gerhart as State Coordinator. On February 23rd, the grassroots effort officially ended and placed themselves at his disposal as campaign volunteers - until he started threatening GOP officials and volunteers, in the press. We did not want to distance ourselves from him, we were forced to do so by his gross incompetence.

Read what Qadoshyah posted. Do your own research. Organizing on their own, we were able to win 60% of the Congressional District National Delegates and 83% of the Alternates. We should have won more - but we lost by a few votes in Ms. Fish's 2nd District (which she partially attributes to the actions of Gerhart) and we lost the 1st CD due to the breaking of Rules. We lost at our State Convention after more Rules were broken - and we challenged it, with no help from the National Campaign, all the way to Tampa - through the Committee on Contests, the RNC, and the Credentials Committee. We were prepared to bring it up on the floor - after Maine was brought up - but we were unable since the Chair at National would not recognize anyone.

Read what she wrote - it's all true.

Steve Dickson
2012 GOP National Delegate from Oklahoma's 5th Congressional District