The Problem of the Libertarian Moocher (Re: Paul Fest)

[Barrex]

I love your new avatar. I just love it. It is the best avatar that I ever saw.

 

[angelatc]

Was not impressed with him prior. Another overhyped personality cult dude was my impression from those here who talked him up. I ain't a big Lew Rockwell/Mises Institute fan either. They are simply reading material I can glean basic data from and toss the opinions..like i do with everything else i read from any source. Can't stand Schiff or Stossel either. Talking heads are not my cup of tea. I don't need telling what to think or have a ditto dude i can listen to to back up my internal thought processes. And probably it is due more to people being sycophants about these people that turn me off. Just like Just Bieber hype or Lady gaga.


Rev9

Who do you like, Rev?

 

[angelatc]

I'll be serious for a sec.

My stance is as follows: People have every right to gripe about pricing etc, but no right to the product. Pretty simple?

Why aren't they allowed to complain, I could see if someone threatened harm to Mr. Woods that this would be a tort and direction violation of our principles but merely posting random internet comments should be permissible?

Even Tom is allowed to complain about the complainers.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I think Tom makes a good, but unfair point. Many in the movement do a great deal pro bono, and they are important to the cause as well. I would have preferred if Tom drew that distinction in his vlog. I certainly hope he agrees with me on that point. I have donated over my annual salary to liberty causes over the years, I do know what he is talking about to some degree, so as long as there is some benefit of doubt to be given, Tom does get that very benefit of the doubt from me.

His video was awkward. Event organizers certainly need to be cost conscious, as it can get out of hand fast. How much is reasonable? That is purely subjective. To some, charging a penny to preach to the choir is too much. For others, what is seen as a reasonable fee can vary greatly. Tom's idea that a "chip-in" could be created for the fees of a given speaker would be problematic. Any controversy he has seen about fees to this point would be multiplied many times if it was put out to a "chip-in" vote.

This is always an issue for a campaign like this. If you are a true believer and are lucky enough to be in a position to charge for your services, how much do you charge? Many feel that pro-bono is their contribution. How much would you be comfortable charging? It might be much easier to work for a candidate or cause that you don't really beleive in, therefore there would be no considerations other than time and money.

Quite the sticky wicket.

 

[jj-]

His video was awkward. Event organizers certainly need to be cost conscious, as it can get out of hand fast. How much is reasonable? That is purely subjective. To some, charging a penny to preach to the choir is too much. For others, what is seen as a reasonable fee can vary greatly. Tom's idea that a "chip-in" could be created for the fees of a given speaker would be problematic. Any controversy he has seen about fees to this point would be multiplied many times if it was put out to a "chip-in" vote.

This is always an issue for a campaign like this. If you are a true believer and are lucky enough to be in a position to charge for your services, how much do you charge? Many feel that pro-bono is their contribution. How much would you be comfortable charging? It might be much easier to work for a candidate or cause that you don't really beleive in, therefore there would be no considerations other than time and money.

Quite the sticky wicket.

Way too much thought. Everyone should charge whatever they want, and everyone should offer to pay whatever they want.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Way too much thinking. Everyone should charge whatever they want, and everyone should offer to pay whatever they want.

Certainly, but this issue does arise. How many people on this forum got very agitated about the fact that a certain person from this forum might have received some kind of payment from the official Ron Paul campaign?

If you are a professional, how much would charge the Ron Paul campaign if you worked for them? Would you charge an industry standard rate? Would you give a discount because you believe in the cause? Would you charge more than you have ever made before in your life because you felt you were doing something more important than before? Some people face these very questions. Woods seems to be jumping into the middle of these common controversies.

 

[jj-]

If you are a professional, how much would charge the Ron Paul campaign if you worked for them? Would you charge an industry standard rate? Would you give a discount because you believe in the cause? Would you charge more than you have ever made before in you life because you felt you were doing something more important than before? Some people face these very questions. Woods seems to be jumping into the middle of these common controversies.

Each situation is different and each person probably will consider the context of his decision to charge what he thinks is the best price according to his objectives.

I do think that getting mad at angry anonymous internet posters and making a video about it is a waste of time.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Each situation is different and each person probably will consider the context of his decision to charge what he thinks is the best price according to his objectives.

I do think that getting mad at angry anonymous internet posters and making a video about it is a waste of time.

Fair enough.

The additional complication seems to be that these negotiations somehow became public, and people then gave their always helpful "input".

 

[jj-]

The additional complication seems to be that these negotiations somehow became public, and people then gave their always helpful "input".

lol.

If you let 'the internet' tell you what to do, you'll run into some problems.

 

[soulcyon]

Was not impressed with him prior. Another overhyped personality cult dude was my impression from those here who talked him up. I ain't a big Lew Rockwell/Mises Institute fan either. They are simply reading material I can glean basic data from and toss the opinions..like i do with everything else i read from any source. Can't stand Schiff or Stossel either. Talking heads are not my cup of tea. I don't need telling what to think or have a ditto dude i can listen to to back up my internal thought processes. And probably it is due more to people being sycophants about these people that turn me off. Just like Just Bieber hype or Lady gaga.


Rev9

Do you mind if I make you my personal talking head? Your opinions are far more intriguing than whats normally found on the interwebs :d

 

[anaconda]

The grassroots doesn't ask for pay. So, who is part of the grassroots and who is not? Maybe Napolitano is not part of the grassroots. It seems if a million people are working for liberty for free and donating gobs of money, maybe Napolitano should join in and speak for no fee. Did MLK have "speaking fees?"

 

[Crystallas]

The grassroots doesn't ask for pay. So, who is part of the grassroots and who is not? Maybe Napolitano is not part of the grassroots. It seems if a million people are working for liberty for free and donating gobs of money, maybe Napolitano should join in and speak for no fee. Did MLK have "speaking fees?"

Supply and Demand. We claim to understand economics in this movement, it's about time we apply the same rules. Everyone is welcome to fill Judge Nap's shoes.

 

[anaconda]

Supply and Demand. We claim to understand economics in this movement, it's about time we apply the same rules. Everyone is welcome to fill Judge Nap's shoes.

Well, I have enjoyed Napolitano...but he's not gonna get a dime from me for giving a speech. So I guess my contribution to the Napolitano "demand curve" is quite minimal.

 

[Revolution9]

Who do you like, Rev?

Facts and processes. I ain't too keen on celebs having worked for a slew and known many personally. I get along better with salt of the earth common sense folk that are curious. I looked through a rag while getting tires recently chronicling all these "people" and the BS they are up to daily. My good lord Jesus..what a bunch of inhuman monsters with their tight assed pulled out grimaces, their mass infidelities, their pregnancies and biological dysfunctions, psychological melodramas and bootlicking money grubbing publicity BS. I eschewed all that and it's benefits when I was young and I have even more wisdom now.

I like authentic people is probably another way to put it succinctly if we are discussing people and not how to receive and transmit info and data.. This is why RP has my attention. I liked John Lennon for the same authenticity. Yogi Bera. Nikola Tesla. I hope for him/RP to be a role model of authenticity...to be who you are and not your brand or have someone else own the real estate between your ears. The world is so full of phonies and poseurs I rarely venture out into it anymore as I cannot hold my tongue for too long and wish to remain well mannered. I don't own a TV. I don't listen to radio. I go for facts. I toss opinion garnishing those facts.

Rev9

 

[Revolution9]

Do you mind if I make you my personal talking head? Your opinions are far more intriguing than whats normally found on the interwebs :d

Probably because I actually go through thought processes that take into account all corner cases when listening to ideas and philosophies. I went to school when you actually had to answer questions and write essays and not just tick a checkbox with a one in four chance of getting the right answer and you could fail or get put back a grade. Whhen I finally got all the reading and writing and 'rithmetic down I skipped class and spent it in the library. I got my diploma in some of the darkest hollows of North American underground society. Like Ron Paul..I want YOU to be your own talking head. I have a tendency to scoot the other direction when I start getting guru robes trying to adorn me against my true nature.

Rev9

 

[parocks]

The grassroots doesn't ask for pay. So, who is part of the grassroots and who is not? Maybe Napolitano is not part of the grassroots. It seems if a million people are working for liberty for free and donating gobs of money, maybe Napolitano should join in and speak for no fee. Did MLK have "speaking fees?"

Is the grassroots turning down money? Are people offering grassroots money?

 

[Travlyr]

+ rep Tom Woods.

People in the liberty movement seem to think that Freedom means that everything is free. It's bullshit. They like to think that stealing is okay as long as it is not government sanctioned. Steal artwork, or ideas, or copyrights, or IP. That is all okay because Robert Murphy says it is okay. Don't pay your way into the concert because the artist should be giving his work away. Don't pay for the festival because it is just Capitalists taking advantage of the poor. Seriously, many people in the liberty movement read the first page of a book and promote ignorance. ProIndividual is a prime example. He actually cut 1/2 of my quote and then posted it in his signature as if that is what I posted. It's only 1/2 right. It pisses me off because the people in the liberty movement who are not honest discredit the movement. + rep Tom Woods. Good video.

 

[Cowlesy]

If I think a fee for a liberty event is too high, then I don't go to the event. I don't feel like it's my place to make demands on the organizers. Generally, I am appreciative of the organizers because it can be a royal pain in the ass for very little thanks to organize these events.

It's not just "Hey Tom Woods, we'll buy you a plane ticket come to NYC to speak!" and then the event happens.

It's more pick a date that everyone wants, find a venue? Is it the summer and hot? Could it rain? Better be indoors. Indoors usually costs money. Do you want tables for vendors? Is there enough electric for them? Are there bathrooms to support the crowd volume? Is there water available if it's an extended event? How about food? Is there audio setup? How do regulate crowd control? How do you make sure everyone who comes has tickets? Do you need to rent tables or are they available? Are there enough? What about skirting for the tables? Are there seats available? Are there enough vantage points to see/hear the speakers? If vendors are bringing setups, can they bring them early? What if they need help setting up? Do these vendors not want to be near these vendors? After a 14 hour day, who is responsible for tearing down everything? Did half the staff leave, and now it's you? What is the policy on trash? Is there going to be a medical tent, or how do we deal with medical emergencies? Do we need liability insurance? How do event staff communicate with each other-walkie-talkies? How do you deal with disruptors? Is there alcohol? How do make sure only 21 year olds are served?

^^Stuff like that is why I would never organize an event for free. And there are some folks who will do all that for basically nothing, but they do need to raise money via fees for a plethora of those small items that add up to a large cost.

And by the way, I think Judge Napolitano's fee is $5,000. That's actually a pretty low speaking fee. Some people with an 1/8th the knowledge of Judge Napolitano but with bigger self-brand recognition can get $75,000 to $150,000. And his speech is awesome!

 

[PaulConventionWV]

That was somewhat obnoxious, and I'm no moocher.

Besides a few people, I don't see anyone complaining about cost. Seriously, the cost is nearly nothing for what is being offered. Any extras go toward electing liberty candidates.

Instead, they're whining that 1/20 of the event might be taken up by someone they disagree with. I'm not sure how those people live in a world where they encounter people every day, who don't 100% agree with them. Wtf? I spent 6 years convincing my own father that Paul was right instead of this "protecting our interests around the world" bullshit. And for perspective, he was a Goldwater guy.

"Where is the money going?" is a legitimate question, but at least around here, I don't see a lot of people saying it should be free. $77 for 3 days of stuff is almost free anyway. If anythone thinks they can come down to Tampa and not spend double or triple that over 3 days, you're delusional.

I tend to agree. I'm no moocher, and I haven't seen people act like this. Maybe there are, but I still think $77 for Paul Fest is over-valued. I understand it costs a lot to put on the event, but what are you really getting for your money? That's why I wouldn't go. I'm not saying they should do it for free. I'm saying I don't think it's worth the $77 for me. They may very well need $77 to put on the event, but it's not worth it to me. It may be to other people, but that's under their own discretion.

I also agreed that sounded a bit obnoxious to me, and I think he may have misunderstood some of those people. There may be moochers here, but for the most part, I think most people on these boards know that for-profit ventures are just part of the market.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I may have to rethink Tom Woods.

Rev9

In what way? Fer or agin'?