Rick Santorum The Origins of the Nick Name "Frothy"

[Sola_Fide]

"Contrary to the UN propaganda, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right and, according to the drafters of the Constitution, the guardian of every other right. Many victims of tyranny were first disarmed by their governments."

-Ron Paul, 2003

I'm sorry man, the right to bear arms IS the guardian of every other right.

The conversation is over in my mind unless you want to try to refute Ron on this point.

 

[LawnWake]

I'm sorry man, the right to bear arms IS the guardian of every other right.

If that were the case, you would be able to walk into an airport without getting groped, not worry about the government reading your emails or worry about what you're putting in your body.

Walk on the street naked with a loaded gun. You'll have cops arresting you for indecent exposure and if you were to protect yourself from cops arresting you for a victimless crime, using your gun, they'll get more cops with more, bigger guns and you'll be dead.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Is there some disagreement you have with Ron on this point?

Let me know.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Ron Paul is the defender of the fundamental right of liberty: self defense...

Ron Paul co-sponsored individual right to self- defense at home and as self-defense

Declares that a person not prohibited under the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of:

1. imminent and unlawful infliction of serious bodily injury; person of a violent felony against the person or a member the person's family;

2. and felony by another person.

 

[LawnWake]

Is there some disagreement you have with Ron on this point?

Let me know.

I think the right to defend yourself from force is a fundamental right.

However, if you can't use it to defend yourself from government actively infringing upon your right to do with your body whatever you want, it is sort of pointless. Government is the biggest innitiator of force. So it's ok to use a gun against someone who breaks into your home when they're a citizen, but not when cops break into your home and use guns to stop you from having consentual sex with a prostitute?

It's not a black and white issue where 'owning a gun' automatically helps you establish freedom. You mentioned that drugs are meant to pacify the populace, but the more think about it, American gunlaws truly pacify the populace with the illusion that they're protecting themselves. And they are to a degree, from citizens. But as I said, what's the point of owning a gun if you can't use it to protect yourself from the biggest coercive force known to mankind, known as the government?

 

[Sola_Fide]

I think the right to defend yourself from force is a fundamental right.

However, if you can't use it to defend yourself from government actively infringing upon your right to do with your body whatever you want, it is sort of pointless. Government is the biggest innitiator of force. So it's ok to use a gun against someone who breaks into your home when they're a citizen, but not when cops break into your home and use guns to stop you from having consentual sex with a prostitute?

It's not a black and white issue where 'owning a gun' automatically helps you establish freedom. You mentioned that drugs are meant to pacify the populace, but the more think about it, American gunlaws truly pacify the populace with the illusion that they're protecting themselves. And they are to a degree, from citizens. But as I said, what's the point of owning a gun if you can't use it to protect yourself from the biggest coercive force known to mankind, known as the government?

....you are posting this from the Netherlands, where you can't legally defend yourself with a gun from an attacker OR a government. You understand this right?

 

[Dr.3D]

But as I said, what's the point of owning a gun if you can't use it to protect yourself from the biggest coercive force known to mankind, known as the government?

The U.S. Constitution says we can when necessary, thus we can should the need arise. If we didn't have 'guns', we wouldn't have that option.

 

[LawnWake]

....you are posting this from the Netherlands, where you can't legally defend yourself with a gun from an attacker OR a government. You understand this right?

Yes? And in this country, the government won't aggress against me for doing with my body whatever I want nearly to the same degree that they would in America?

Hence my argument that the Netherlands are every bit as totalitarian/libertarian as the USA. We have some deregulations in the market they you don't have, we have some civil liberties that you don't have and so forth. Keeping the Dutch from arming themselves is a form of aggression of the government, and I'm against it. But as I said, what's the point of owning a gun if you can't use it to protect the right to do with your body whatever you want?

The U.S. Constitution says we can when necessary, thus we can should the need arise. If we didn't have 'guns', we wouldn't have that option.

What's the point of a consitution if no one upholds it? I know the consitution permits it, but seeing as you live in a country where 90% of the laws are unconsitituonal and even strip you of constitutional rights, it's kinda pointless.

In a perfect world with a consitutional America, the right to bear arms means something. These days it's just handing someone a fly-swapper to fight a lion. And it's good that it's there to some degree. But consitution or not, the guys with the bigger guns don't care about it and, as I said in my previous example, they will kill you for walking around naked on the streets with a loaded gun.

All I'm saying is, for the right to bear arms to truly mean something, you should have the right to do with your body as you please without having the government interfere with bigger guns. Both rights are co-dependent. I think this the most pro-liberty position you can take on the subject.

 

[rambone]

 

[PierzStyx]

This is crass and beneath the dignity of the Ron Paul movement.

There is national media watching everything we post on these boards. Perpetuating this nasty image is not becoming of a Ron Paul supporter in the national spotlight, imo.

Oh blow it out your nose.

 

[PierzStyx]

You can't really see past black and white thinking can you? I've already said that Europe is totalitarian and libertarian in different areas. I mean, here in the Netherlands, we don't have a death penalty while plenty of states and so many Americans believe it's ok for the government to end someone's life if a group of people and a judge with government granted authority believe it is. And only a government official can pardon that person. That's tyranny. And we don't have nearly the level of police brutality that America has. And the government pardons it, obviously.

I mean, out here, a friend of mine hugged a police horse while clearly rollin' hard on MDMA without getting tazered. Drug laws are hardly enforced (which I know from experience). We have legal prostitution (which, by the way, is still too heavily regulated by the government) We don't get sexually assaulted by the government at airports either. Recent studies have also shown that the Netherlands has more press freedom than America has.

And so on and so forth. It's not as black and white as you think it is. I'm not saying that the Netherlands are a bastion of liberty, I have as many issues with my country as I do with America, but they're in different areas.

You have been fooled. Three words "Brave New World." Your government has you thinking you're free using drugs and sex but those are merely distractions, tools to keep you blind.

 

[LawnWake]

You have been fooled. Three words "Brave New World."

Your government has you thinking you're free ownings guns but those are merely distractions, tools to keep you blind.

At this point I'm not even trying because you're claiming that I think I'm free and all that crap.

Go to the start of the thread, read all my argument and cry about the fact that you can't refute them or something.

 

[ConsideringRonPaul]

Hahahahahaah netherlands guy claiming he's go liberty. You've been hoodwinked my friend. Good commentary by Aqua Buddha

 

[LawnWake]

Hahahahahaah netherlands guy claiming he's go liberty. You've been hoodwinked my friend. Good commentary by Aqua Buddha

Yes, this is exactly what I claim and you are a genius.

 

[Danke]

I dare you to think about that one for a bit.

nvm, see this isn't in HT yet...