The Mission Advancement Framework - A new site initiative!

The joy of the NAP it that it is 100% about interpretation. [...]

:confused: Of course it is. So what? There is not nor can there be any ethical precept about which this is not true.

What is there to interpret about NAP? [...]
What is property? Who can own it? Both of these are essentially arbitrary in their definition and lead to most of the schisms between advocates.

The NAP is corollary, not "primary" - i.e., application of the NAP necessarily presupposes answers to questions such as "what is property and how can it be acquired?" and "what is violence and when may it be used?" But the fact that there are disagreements among exponents of the NAP concerning the answers to such questions does not stand as a sensible criticism of the NAP per se. All socio-political "isms" (not just those that incorporate the NAP) must address such questions - and proponents of those "isms" are just as prone to "internal" disagreements over the answers. Socialists, for example, may dispute among themselves over what is "capital" and what is not ... or Constitutionalists may dispute among themselves over who is a "natural-born citizen" and who is not ... or etc., etc., etc. Any "ism" that does not exhibit such so-called "schisms" is either very small or very sterile or both ...
 
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:confused: Of course it is. So what? There is not nor can there be any ethical precept about which this is not true.

When claiming objective moral truth that one could kill to defend based on self-evidence, it really should be self evident.
 
When claiming objective moral truth that one could kill to defend based on self-evidence, it really should be self evident.

*shrug* I agree - when claiming anything based on something being X, that something really should be X. (I dare even say that this is "self-evident.")

On numerous occasions you have made allegations of claims of "self-evidence" (just as you have done here and in post #91), but I do not recall your having cited any specific sources of such. You may have done so, but I am not aware of it (perhaps I have missed them). If you will identify a particular one, I will gladly join you in critiquing it.

Neither the NAP nor its applications are "self-evident" in the sense of being obviously indisputable primaries - as I previously stated, they are corollary upon presuppositions about which reasonable people may disagree. However, it is important to understand that a claim that a propostion is "self-evident" is not necessarily intended to mean that the proposition is an obviously indisputable primary. It might be intended to mean that - or it might merely be intended to mean that the proposition is clearly and obviously derivable from presuppositions that have been assumed to be true within the context of the presentation.

For example, given presuppositional statements A, B and C, and given a clear and obvious derivation of proposition D from A and B, and given a clear and obvious derivation of propostion E from B and C, it is not unreasonable to say that D and E are "self-evident." Of course, one may dispute whether any of A, B and C are actually "true" (or "correct" or "desirable" or whatever other term may be appropriate), but that in no way invalidates the claim that the derivations of D and E from A, B and C are "self-evident." To illustrate: if all green things are made of cheese, and if the moon is green, then within the context of those premises, it can be said to be obvious - i.e., "self-evident" - that the moon must be made of cheese. Or for a "real world" illustration, consider this from Herbert Spencer (bold emphasis added):

As a corollary to the proposition that all institutions must be subordinated to the law of equal freedom, we cannot choose but admit the right of the citizen to adopt a condition of voluntary outlawry. If every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man, then he is free to drop connection with the state - to relinquish its protection and to refuse paying toward its support. It is self-evident that in so behaving he in no way trenches upon the liberty of others, for his position is a passive one, and while passive he cannot become an aggressor. It is equally self-evident that he cannot be compelled to continue one of a political corporation without a breach of the moral law, seeing that citizenship involves payment of taxes; and the taking away of a man's property against his will is an infringement of his rights.​

It is clear from this that Spencer's assertions of "self-evidence" are made within the context of "a corollary to the proposition" he identifies, and that they are also contingent upon the specified condition "if every man has ..." being true. Spencer is not asserting that his "self-evident" claims are obviously indisputable primaries.

Thus, from your post #91, which I mentioned in an earlier parenthetical:
If proponents [of the NAP] can be at such odds over the terms then clearly it invalidates the premise that they are self-evident.

Given the above considerations, whether this statement by you is true is contingent upon the context in which those ostensibly "self-evident" propositions are proffered. If and when they are presented as obviously indisputable primaries, then you are correct, and the fact that they are disputed over clearly does render false any assertions of "self-evidence." But if and when they are presented as being "self-evidently" corollary to presuppositions over which reasonable people might disagree, your statement is true only if you can demonstrate that they are not obviously derivable from the relevant presuppositions (and this may involve subjective assessments of what is or is not "obvious"). Furthermore, in either of these cases, even if you were able to demonstrate a lack of "self-evidence," this would serve only to show that the quality of being "self-evident" is absent from the relevant propositions - i.e., it would not serve to show that those propositions are invalid or false, but merely that they are not "self-evident."
 
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DOOD.

VALUE IS SUBJECTiVE. THEREFORE INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY.
HARM IS BAD FOR IT CAUSES SUFFERING, THEREFORE JURIES.

WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT SYRIA?

1. IS IT A WAR? IF YES, DON'T DO IT. BECAUSE HARM IS BAD

WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT FOOD STAMPS?

2. DOES IT PLACE VALUE OUTSIDE OF THE HANDS OF AN INDIVIDUAL? IF YES (YES) DON'T DO IT, BECAUSE VALUE IS SUBJECTIVE

THIS IS NOT DIFFICULT STUFF
 
We need core principles in an easy to read, understandable format for the masses. Along with our message of ending the wars (War on Terror & War on Drugs) we need a list of principles that appeals to both red team and blue team. Here is my attempt:

The Five Steps to a Free Country

1. Fight Corporate Privilege. End limited liability protections and corporate personhood. Hold shareholders accountable for the actions and crimes of their corporations. End corporate welfare by abolishing subsidies and restoring market competition. In a free country, corporations do not have more power than individuals.

2. Fight the Wall Street Banking Cartel. End the Fed and the Fractional-Reserve Banking system that causes the boom-bust cycle while enriching the 1%. Allow currencies to compete by recognizing the Right of all free people to choose the currencies they trade and save in. Remove all legal tender laws and taxes on commodities restoring a true free-market to our money. In a free country, banks and governments cannot print money from thin air.

3. Return Justice to the Justice System. Recognize the Right of defense attorneys and the accused to use all evidence and testimony available to them in their defense, including arguments based on Natural Law. Restore the Right of Jury Nullification which allows the jury to protect people from unconstitutional laws that violate their Natural Rights and set them free. In a free country, only citizens send criminals to jail, never government employees.

4. Protect the Environment by Protecting your Environment. Allow landowners to sue anyone, including corporations, who pollute their air, water or soil. Remove property taxes & regulations so people can truly own their land, pass it to their children, invest in making improvements and create an incentive toward sustainability for the long-term. Redefine land ownership to allow all neglected public and private land to be settled and claimed by individuals which make improvements to the land without fees or taxes. The term "improvement" shall be defined in court by a jury of peers. In a free country, land is only owned when used.

5. Reestablish the Right to Choose your Government. The Declaration of Independence is right when it states that A. All men are created equal B. All men have Natural Rights C. The governments role is to protect your Natural Rights D. If the government does not protect your Natural Rights, you have the Right to alter or abolish your government. Any group of people, anywhere and in any number, that demands independence from their country has the Right to declare independence and attempt to make their own way in the world and just maybe, through trial and error, make a better world for their children. In a free country, you have the right to declare independence, at any time for any reason.

Say these five points over and over and over...

And I don't think we can lose.
 
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The following describes a new long-term site initiative! Much more detail is to come!


Forward
I have been formulating ideas and plans on how gain liberty since 2007, these ideas keep getting reprocessed and rethought over and over to continue to refine the best path forward towards liberty. I have acted on a variety of points and ideas but there was still a larger set of ideas that have not been put into motion yet. I purchased RPFs in 2013 with the hopes of acting upon these rough ideas; I spent a good amount of time and effort in 2013-2015 to continue to refine a path and worked to reshape the website to achieve these goals. Almost all of the changes I have made to the site have been calculated to this vision to which I am dedicated.

As these efforts started to come together more I decided it would be best to defer the involvement of others until after the conclusion of Rand’s campaign to prevent any interference with his campaign on the site. As Rand’s campaign is now in the past, I am moving forward.

I have tentatively referred to the plan under consideration simply as the “Mission Advancement Framework” (MAF) and have broken down the efforts to deploy the MAF into different phases. This introduction you are now reading just focuses on the initial goals of the framework; the phases of actual effort to implement the MAF will be forthcoming.


Mission Advancement
The Mission of the site and the liberty movement in general is no small undertaking. The reality is there is no perfect solution; there is no right way to achieve success. Still, past experiences within the liberty movement have shown there are many, many roads to failure. These failures are not hard to see with numerous cases of large amounts of money and energy being put forth which have netted little results. The liberty movement has also seen failures with organizations trying to direct volunteers into efforts that the volunteers don’t value highly, little comes from these as well. There are lessons to be learned from these failures! I submit that a high level analysis of our failures would show that we are not using the right strategies and tactics to achieve success and we often don’t properly identify or understand the goals.

In order to help make sense of our historical failures and to identify better strategies for success, I am proposing an effort with the following three initial goals:

1) Develop a Foundational Knowledgebase characterizing our end goals. – The objective of this effort will be to gain clarity of what we are trying to achieve and to help educate new members about our goals.

2a) Conduct a movement retrospective study on our past efforts and on the tactics used to achieve our end goals. The study would include issues of applied resources, messaging tactics as well as measured and perceived results such as the overall public perception that resulted.

2b) Conduct a study on the tactics used by other campaign, organizations and groups to achieve their end goals. [credit site member "thor" for this point.]

2c) Conduct a study on significant historical elements that relate to our Mission in order to catalog and characterize them. Topics should include major world events and significant works in philosophy, law, history, economics and fiction that form the intellectual pedigree for our Mission. [credit site member "thoughtomator" for this point.]

3) Feed the results of the studies into the development of a Foundational Knowledgebase that can characterizes the use of tactics, highlight paths that lead to failure and direct people to use proven methodologies for common projects. This effort should drill down into the root cause of all issues including topics within management, marketing and human psychology.

The objective of this effort will be to drive toward the effective use of resources in the future and to help formulate strategic plans.

4) Encourage adoption of the Foundational Knowledgebase and continual improvement of it. – The objective of this effort will be to broaden the circle of use and contributors to the Foundational Knowledgebase, a work product that can provide wide and long lasting value in the achievement of our goals. The Foundational Knowledgebase can become the go-to resource for almost all topical discussions.

In short, we need to correct the problem of acting without adequate thinking and planning. After we have identified the right common ground and have developed better tactics and tools, we will optimize the results of our efforts. Note, common ground does not mean that everyone agrees on the same end goals and optimal tactics, it’s that we share an agreed understanding of them.

While many written works already exist about our goals, none satisfy what I see as the key requirements for success of this effort, which include for the Foundational Knowledgebase to:
• Be complete in encompassing all issues within our scope in a single source format.
• Be freely available to read on the internet.
• Be broken down into small, easy to read sections.
• Be massively hyperlinked to allow for easy navigation from subject to subject and to navigate up and down subject matter details.
• Develop the logical reasoning behind important principles and then apply the principles throughout the work.

Existing works will certainly play a role in shaping the content of the Foundational Knowledgebase and can be referenced from it, but existing works have not proven to be the big solution that is needed; it is now time for a more complete Foundational Knowledgebase to rally around and support our Mission.

To achieve these goals an operational framework needs to be established as a prerequisite goal. This structure will be called the Mission Advancement Framework (MAF), a construct designed to work towards the achievement of these and other goals in a voluntary yet organized and effective manner.

While the established goals as outlined above are no small undertaking, much like our Mission itself, this effort is designed to provide permanent value and is something that is needed now and will forever be of value regardless of the current situation on the planet!


Continue with the next step in the MAF here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...n-Advancement-Framework&p=6141187#post6141187

Laudable.

However, you are missing a key element: Philosophical underpinnings.

Without an understanding of the philosophical basis driving the other goals, the chances of longer term failure (even generations down the road) are high because people will not know why they are where they are in terms of being free. This, in turn, leaves them ill-equipped to deal with the usual carpet-bagger sorts like the regressives who label themselves "progressive". Why were the hippies so effective as useful idiots to the regressives? Largely because the people whom they attacked were not of the right mind to put them in their proper places when they came forward with their blank-check iconoclasm. What may have begun as a reasonable questioning of who we were and where we were headed was rapidly coopted by the left and perverted, the targets of the regressive debauchery too ignorant and naïve to understand what was being done to them; how they were being manipulated.

Without a very well thought out, correct, complete, and clear philosophical framework showing WHY we are inherently free and why it is the best state of living possible, future generations will be unequipped to resist the snake-oil salesmen who will tempt the non-achievers with the very same notions the regressives used on the same class of youngsters, and which are employed with such catastrophic effect even today, playing upon feelings of inadequacy, justification, envy, hatred, fear, avarice, and so forth. It was a perfect strategy to target the lowest men on the totem, telling them that they were as good as the rest and that it simply wasn't fair and that "the system" was evil and had to be destroyed in order that the corrupt ill-adepts would stand shoulder to shoulder with the achievers.

That aside, the philosophical foundation is needed not only to convince people of the validity and desirability of real freedom, it also DEFINES it such that people understand exactly what it is for which they would strive and why they should do so, as well as the reasons some would reject proper freedom. Words and notions are all too often thrown around willy-nilly without rigorous understanding. That cannot be the case here. It simply CANNOT be allowed because that will lead to failure.

For hypothetical example: imagine a general civil war broke out today and "we" slaughtered "Themme" to the man. Just as with VJ-Day, there might be great celebrations. But then what? With what is the old regime replaced? THAT is the greater problem. Why? Because in a nation of 300 million people, you would have at least 300,000,001 opinions on the matter. Consider what happened after we cleaned up in Eye-Rack - we had no exit strategy and no vision for what we were to accomplish there, aside from kicking the local tyrant's ass, which we did. Now what? Between Bush and Obama, many thumbs resided in many sphincters, the only people having a real clue of what to do being concerns such as Haliburton who were there to suck the American taxpayer's dry. The military at least knew that there was a problem, but the nitwits in DC kept waving the penises around, shouting loudly that they had it all under control and condemning anyone who questioned their methods.

There was NO PLAN because there was no understanding of the situation beyond the actual military operations. The POLITICAL goal was almost nonexistent beyond putting Hussein and al Qaeda out of business. The situation reminded me of the episode of South Park with the underpants gnomes where on their black board they had "Steal Under Pants --> ???? --> Profit". It is the classic "and then a miracle occurs" situation, as was the "mission" in Eye-Rack in terms of politics. There WAS no real mission because there was no plan because there was no understanding.

And so it would be in the wake of this hypothetical civil war, part deux. Because there would be no clear and sufficiently broad philosophical basis for understanding that for which we had fought - because all we would know is that we had fought for "freedom" with no knowledge of what that really means - there would instantly arise faction up faction with differing opinions. There would survive those even on the "winning" side who would want "socialism" because they were too damned pig-ignorant and corrupt to realize that it is one of the worst possible solutions - a "non-solution", in fact. Even barring that, you would have a million differing visions of what post-war America should be and that would likely result in more fighting. Taken to its logically absurd conclusion, the day would come when the last two cavemen would find themselves on opposite sides of the fire, eyeballing each other nervously and getting no sleep at all.

You cannot even begin to take this journey with any rational hope of achieving anything worthy of good note without being armed with a fully framed philosophical skeleton upon which to pin your strategy and the attendant tactics. Without this framework, I daresay you are doomed to failure.

To that end, I offer as a starting point items such as the Canon Of Proper Human Relations, which IMO should be based upon a philosophical proof of the absolute equality of all human rights. It's all there in the Canon as it now exists, but methinks a restructuring would be in order for the sake of rigor, clarity, completeness, and proven correctness. I am not suggesting that it need become a work of ultimate philosophical rigor right up front, for that could take years and endless volumes of tiresome language, analysis, and synthesis to produce. That is a task for philosophers to take up if they so choose. What I would seek and suggest it a work that is intuitively proven to a 6-sigma standard such that any challenge to its validity could be crushed by any semi-dull sixth-grader having been gifted with an understanding of the basic principles in question. Having that basis would go a very long way toward "standardizing" the philosophical world-view, thereby making it broadly accessible to the people of the nation and ultimately the world. With such broad dissemination of the knowledge of the principles, people of all ages and backgrounds would be able to engage in intelligent discourse on the matter, based upon facts in evidence, reason, and logic in favor of the current trend to wild, flailing emotionalism being allowed to damn fact and reason to hell, no matter how insanely destructive to self and others.

Whatever your basis, you must have this if you intend on avoiding the same failure points that have sunk men's efforts to get out from under the tyrant's thumb for centuries. Less ignorance is what it needed, not more; but the quality of the principled basis and definition must be better than it has ever before been such that the philosophy cannot be credibly defeated by ignorants and other malefactors. It allows for the questioning of itself, saying "prove me invalid and I will leave of my own free will", so to speak. I do believe I have contrived the basis for this impermeability: the Cardinal Postulate which says that all men are equally endowed (or gifted) with life. The whole strategy I have in mind revolves around getting challengers to accept it as axiomatically and apodictically true. Once that happens, their ships of argumentation are sunk, leaving them nowhere to go but to brunch with Davey Jones.

Let me know if you want to proceed.
 
"Leave it to the states" is not passing the buck on abortion, it's restoring the issue back to where it belongs. Removing an issue as a centralizing concern is an excellent counter to the statist impulse. This devolution away from federalizing everything is indeed more unifying than the one-size-fits-all policymaking of monolithic philosophers.

Absolutely incorrect. It is by all means passing the buck. The issue is NOT validly determinable in randomly differing ways from one state to the next. This issue is a REALLY big deal, especially when it is considered murder. Given that potential, this is one of those core issues that must have IDENTICAL valence and treatment across all state lines. One doesn't have women in NYC running about to get hoovered with impunity while Louisiana sends them to prison for doing the same. This "states rights" argument is so hopelessly failed in all its dimensions as to boggle the mind of thinking men when others raise it as some sort of grand political virtue. The very thought that KneeGrows could validly be forced to the back of the bus once again in New Jersey as a matter of "state's rights" is absurd on its face. No state holds valid power to violate the rights of men. PERIOD.
 
Laudable.

However, you are missing a key element: Philosophical underpinnings.

Without an understanding of the philosophical basis driving the other goals, the chances of longer term failure (even generations down the road) are high because people will not know why they are where they are in terms of being free. This, in turn, leaves them ill-equipped to deal with the usual carpet-bagger sorts like the regressives who label themselves "progressive". Why were the hippies so effective as useful idiots to the regressives? Largely because the people whom they attacked were not of the right mind to put them in their proper places when they came forward with their blank-check iconoclasm. What may have begun as a reasonable questioning of who we were and where we were headed was rapidly coopted by the left and perverted, the targets of the regressive debauchery too ignorant and naïve to understand what was being done to them; how they were being manipulated.

Without a very well thought out, correct, complete, and clear philosophical framework showing WHY we are inherently free and why it is the best state of living possible, future generations will be unequipped to resist the snake-oil salesmen who will tempt the non-achievers with the very same notions the regressives used on the same class of youngsters, and which are employed with such catastrophic effect even today, playing upon feelings of inadequacy, justification, envy, hatred, fear, avarice, and so forth. It was a perfect strategy to target the lowest men on the totem, telling them that they were as good as the rest and that it simply wasn't fair and that "the system" was evil and had to be destroyed in order that the corrupt ill-adepts would stand shoulder to shoulder with the achievers.

That aside, the philosophical foundation is needed not only to convince people of the validity and desirability of real freedom, it also DEFINES it such that people understand exactly what it is for which they would strive and why they should do so, as well as the reasons some would reject proper freedom. Words and notions are all too often thrown around willy-nilly without rigorous understanding. That cannot be the case here. It simply CANNOT be allowed because that will lead to failure.
You are absolutely correct, and I acknowledge that this intro was short on details to make it more readable. To get an idea of how these issues are being addressed, I refer you to the following threads (in order):

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?492690-Finite-Set-Logic-and-Political-Philosophy
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...owledgebase-Scope-Limitations-and-Assumptions
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?493146-Societal-Development-amp-Civil-Advancement
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?493219-Foundational-Knowledgebase-Dictionary


For hypothetical example: imagine a general civil war broke out today and "we" slaughtered "Themme" to the man. Just as with VJ-Day, there might be great celebrations. But then what? With what is the old regime replaced? THAT is the greater problem. Why? Because in a nation of 300 million people, you would have at least 300,000,001 opinions on the matter. Consider what happened after we cleaned up in Eye-Rack - we had no exit strategy and no vision for what we were to accomplish there, aside from kicking the local tyrant's ass, which we did. Now what? Between Bush and Obama, many thumbs resided in many sphincters, the only people having a real clue of what to do being concerns such as Haliburton who were there to suck the American taxpayer's dry. The military at least knew that there was a problem, but the nitwits in DC kept waving the penises around, shouting loudly that they had it all under control and condemning anyone who questioned their methods.

There was NO PLAN because there was no understanding of the situation beyond the actual military operations. The POLITICAL goal was almost nonexistent beyond putting Hussein and al Qaeda out of business. The situation reminded me of the episode of South Park with the underpants gnomes where on their black board they had "Steal Under Pants --> ???? --> Profit". It is the classic "and then a miracle occurs" situation, as was the "mission" in Eye-Rack in terms of politics. There WAS no real mission because there was no plan because there was no understanding.
I completely agree, this is an issue that needs to be addressed. In a large regard, I consider this a two part problem. The first is to make sure that people are philosophical aligned on the ideas of liberty. The second is a somewhat different issues, in that we need the define structures on how to best defend liberty, be it with a state or not (which is somewhat immaterial). Defining liberty is a complete philosophical process; determining how to defend it requires some concrete decisions to be made that are full of pros and cons. I did not address this element here, but did within the Liberty Blueprint:

7. a) Organizational structure plans needed to preserve liberty. b) Execution of the plans.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?494373-A-new-site-vision-a-new-era

And so it would be in the wake of this hypothetical civil war, part deux. Because there would be no clear and sufficiently broad philosophical basis for understanding that for which we had fought - because all we would know is that we had fought for "freedom" with no knowledge of what that really means - there would instantly arise faction up faction with differing opinions. There would survive those even on the "winning" side who would want "socialism" because they were too damned pig-ignorant and corrupt to realize that it is one of the worst possible solutions - a "non-solution", in fact. Even barring that, you would have a million differing visions of what post-war America should be and that would likely result in more fighting. Taken to its logically absurd conclusion, the day would come when the last two cavemen would find themselves on opposite sides of the fire, eyeballing each other nervously and getting no sleep at all.

You cannot even begin to take this journey with any rational hope of achieving anything worthy of good note without being armed with a fully framed philosophical skeleton upon which to pin your strategy and the attendant tactics. Without this framework, I daresay you are doomed to failure.

To that end, I offer as a starting point items such as the Canon Of Proper Human Relations, which IMO should be based upon a philosophical proof of the absolute equality of all human rights. It's all there in the Canon as it now exists, but methinks a restructuring would be in order for the sake of rigor, clarity, completeness, and proven correctness.
Upon reflection, and past discussions, I think we are defining the same concept with two different terms, you with "Canon Of Proper Human Relations" and me with "Civil Advancement". This is something we can get into more later.

I am not suggesting that it need become a work of ultimate philosophical rigor right up front, for that could take years and endless volumes of tiresome language, analysis, and synthesis to produce.
Agreed, that is why I am suggesting a long form and a short forum of the knowledgebase. The goal will be to cover a lot of ground building out the short form and filling in the long form later.

That is a task for philosophers to take up if they so choose. What I would seek and suggest it a work that is intuitively proven to a 6-sigma standard such that any challenge to its validity could be crushed by any semi-dull sixth-grader having been gifted with an understanding of the basic principles in question. Having that basis would go a very long way toward "standardizing" the philosophical world-view, thereby making it broadly accessible to the people of the nation and ultimately the world.
This is the exact goal of the knowledgebase, completely air-tight logic.


With such broad dissemination of the knowledge of the principles, people of all ages and backgrounds would be able to engage in intelligent discourse on the matter, based upon facts in evidence, reason, and logic in favor of the current trend to wild, flailing emotionalism being allowed to damn fact and reason to hell, no matter how insanely destructive to self and others.
Exactly, a main benefit of the knowledgebase. It also keep one from having to repeat the same arguments over and over. So debates on the internet could be effectively ended by posting one link to the knowledgebase.


Whatever your basis, you must have this if you intend on avoiding the same failure points that have sunk men's efforts to get out from under the tyrant's thumb for centuries. Less ignorance is what it needed, not more; but the quality of the principled basis and definition must be better than it has ever before been such that the philosophy cannot be credibly defeated by ignorants and other malefactors.
Completely agreed.


It allows for the questioning of itself, saying "prove me invalid and I will leave of my own free will", so to speak. I do believe I have contrived the basis for this impermeability: the Cardinal Postulate which says that all men are equally endowed (or gifted) with life. The whole strategy I have in mind revolves around getting challengers to accept it as axiomatically and apodictically true. Once that happens, their ships of argumentation are sunk, leaving them nowhere to go but to brunch with Davey Jones.

Let me know if you want to proceed.
Let's continue to discuss. Be sure to review the 4 linked threads. I am very committed to this effort, some has been slow going of recent due to other site issues but this is a long term project.
 
Absolutely incorrect. It is by all means passing the buck. The issue is NOT validly determinable in randomly differing ways from one state to the next. This issue is a REALLY big deal, especially when it is considered murder. Given that potential, this is one of those core issues that must have IDENTICAL valence and treatment across all state lines.

Homicide itself, not even considering abortion, is a state crime that is differently determined and treated across the 50 states. And the differences are not random, they were determined by the separate deliberative procedures and laws developed by the representative processes of each state. At the start of the country on federal level, only three offenses---treason, counterfeiting and piracy---were considered within its jurisdiction, all else was understood to be the province of the states to determine or prosecute. State's rights is relevant because it accordingly decentralizes government, and thereby makes it easier to correct or reverse its centralizing abuses, on this or other subjects.
 
Homicide itself, not even considering abortion, is a state crime that is differently determined and treated across the 50 states. And the differences are not random, they were determined by the separate deliberative procedures and laws developed by the representative processes of each state. At the start of the country on federal level, only three offenses---treason, counterfeiting and piracy---were considered within its jurisdiction, all else was understood to be the province of the states to determine or prosecute.

You seem to be under the common and false impression that the Constitution does not apply to "states". Even if that had been the Framers' original intention, it is wrong.

The United States is a club of sorts, made up of individual territories that at one time claimed sovereignty. They did each in turn "apply" for membership (original 13 colonies were a bit different, but not so much so that we could not say the same of them in the relevant senses) and were granted it on the proviso that they accepted certain conditions and rules. One of them, the most important one by a vast margin, was the Bill of Rights, which enumerated certain key rights of men, recognizing and holding them sacrosanct, as well as acknowledging the innumerable rights of all free men (Amendment IX and, lesser, X). The BoR could actually have served as the body of the Constitution, the rest of it being left on the cutting room floor for all I could have cared, because it remains the ONLY thing that keeps those last manacles from being clapped on to our wrists and ankles.

To suggest that the 1A applies only to the fedgov, the direct and unavoidable implication being that "states" hold the 10A right to establish mandatory state religions and silence the speech of free men is absurd and beneath contempt on its face. The idea that "states" are empowered to disarm their respective populations, to deny due process, to quarter military or police in others' homes at will, to employ cruel and unusual punishments (including torture to extract confessions in subversion- or arbitrary redefinition-of due process, is equally abhorrent even in the face of the least critical scrutiny.

The BoR was an addition that says, "if you want to be in this club, here are the rules by which you shall comport yourselves, and the fedgov SHALL have the power to enforce these rules of comport upon you because those edicts are the Law of the Land. PERIOD." There is no other interpretation that even makes sense on this issue. The "states rights" interpretations basically say that free speech is only defensible against arbitrary violation by the fedgov, but that states are free to silence their people. Must I point out how revolting and abhorrent this notion actually is on its face?

State's rights is relevant because it accordingly decentralizes government, and thereby makes it easier to correct or reverse its centralizing abuses, on this or other subjects.

That is the theory, but we see how well it has worked in practice.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a "state". The term itself is an abstract construct of shorthand speech, a mere linguistic convenience that points to nothing possessing a reality of its own above and beyond that of a group of people acting in accord with a script. That is IT. When one conducts a noiseless analysis of the notion of "the state", we see there are nothing but vapors and people. Yet those people would have the rest believe that the vaporous shades are stone and steel. This is lies, deceit, and grotesque ignorance at play. It is idiocy of the first order and of such danger that it claimed 200+ million lives in the course of a single, miserable century of humanity run wildly insane behind ideas so lacking in validity that the fact that so many people accepted them as true and sound "law" constitutes proof of how quietly deranged the human race has become. Or would you argue that the notions and pursuant actions of the likes of Stalin and Mao were sound, valid "law" in action?

The 10A is a horrible stain upon the face of the BoR and ought to be either excised or rewritten for clarity, completeness, and correctness.

Secondly, a "state", being a non-extistent entity (or at the very least a non-living one) cannot have RIGHTS. A right is a claim. Can my '32 Ford three-window coupe make claims to anything, even leaded, high-octane fuels? Short of ingesting a very stiff dose of LSD, I am unable to see how it could; and even then. Can your kitchen sink lay a claim of any sort, even to its own existence? No. Then how can a "state"? Short answer: it cannot because even if we grant that it has an existence of its own, which it does not, it is nonetheless INANIMATE. Therefore, "states" have no rights of which to speak. Being non-existent, they really do not even have powers, but that is a discussion for another day.

Our Constitution is a study in the grand political short-shrift. But once again I voice my forgiveness to the Framers and assume their best intentions, rather than that of ensnaring the people with pretty words ( a BIG assumption, I admit, but valid for the purpose of this discussion). As I have pointed out at least once before, they were children of Empire, monarchy no less, raised on basic assumptions so deeply seated, such as the king being a given in the world, that the fact that they wandered far enough off the plantation to conceive of this in-hindsight weak mishmash of specifications for a free nation, is something of a miracle. But that miracle of the day, which still holds a greatness in its bosom as valid now as ever before, comes under need of clarification such that it may be better and more broadly understood by people, more deeply respected and valued through the lens of one's own precious and rightly esteemed freedoms, and either edited, replaced, or at least viewed with different eyes such that the people will no longer be vulnerable to the brands of abuse to which they have acceded since the earliest days of the Republic, in main due to the understandable absence of certain perspectives that we have been privileged to acquire through the agency of many decades of said abuses and the horrors of the Twentieth Century's mass-mechanization of oppression and murder.


Decentralization is not the issue in question here - I am fully on board with that notion, more so than most. It is the question of a "state's" valid powers I take to task and assert that they have few, if any, and that the shorthand of "state" is dangerous and should be excised from general usage. Forsake "state" as a deceptive term, as well as that of "government", their validity being near zero, the dangers they carry nearly without limit. Replace it with governance, which is what we should all be doing in order to keep one another on the right paths of behavior at the margins of our rightful prerogatives as individuals. Dispense with the lousy notion of the "state" and the "government", which corrupt and dangerously ignorant men have employed to justify their outrages against their fellows, and come back to plain language not of things but of deeds or functions. Think not in terms of what the "state/government" is, but what it is supposed to do. Form v. function. In truth, so-called "government" is should be nothing other than people guaranteeing and protecting each others' rights, and nothing more.

There are no "state interests", "states' rights", and so forth as the courts and other dangerous malefactors have asserted in the past. To assert that the "state" has a "compelling interest in..." is definitive proof at the very minimum of an ignorance so deeply dangerous that the person uttering such blathering nonsense should be shunned by all such that he becomes an exile in situo, his ability to negatively effect the lives of others staunched off in fullest measure, at least until such time as he comes to a better understanding of truth and propriety in proper human relations. I would not, in fact, be completely opposed to caning or horse-whipping such men when such grotesque mis-pronouncements and other abuses of sacred language are made in their official capacities as guardians of freedom - and that is precisely what ALL politicians are supposed to be: sentinels and protectors of the inborn freedoms of all men.
 
The joy of the NAP it that it is 100% about interpretation. It is an incredibly jargon heavy term with each word defined beyond common usage and loaded with meaning. In fact most of my issues with anarcho-capitalism stem from how greatly advocates can differ over the meanings of terms and act like its nothing. If proponents can be at such odds over the terms then clearly it invalidates the premise that they are self-evident.

Perhaps if you did a semantic analysis of the NAP and presented it here, we would be able to, a: confirm or refute your claim and, b: contrive something more rigorous, rigor being the true key in these matters as the first line of defense against trespass by malefactors whose intentions are irrelevant.

The principles of Anarcho-capitalism do however rapidly construct arguments that are compellingly hostile to participation.

How so? I am not an ancap and do not really know the details of that particular position, or whether there is even that much formal structure to it.

I don't think voting is consent, I think continuing to hold citizenship or to live within the borders of a system is consent.

How do you reason this? I am afraid I do not see it.

The simplest way to reconcile this, I think, is to float the premise that working within the current system is the most effective and least self-defeating option.

Now THIS you have to explain. It makes little sense at the margins where the "system" is so corrupted that there is no hope of accomplishing anything "good".

I think the smaller the system gets, the closer we get to not violating peoples rights.

This certainly makes intuitive sense to me. This would seem the natural tendency when everyone knows each other on a first-name basis, especially.
 
Laudable.

However, you are missing a key element: Philosophical underpinnings.

Without an understanding of the philosophical basis driving the other goals, the chances of longer term failure (even generations down the road) are high because people will not know why they are where they are in terms of being free. This, in turn, leaves them ill-equipped to deal with the usual carpet-bagger sorts like the regressives who label themselves "progressive". Why were the hippies so effective as useful idiots to the regressives? Largely because the people whom they attacked were not of the right mind to put them in their proper places when they came forward with their blank-check iconoclasm.

Absolutely incorrect. It is by all means passing the buck. The issue is NOT validly determinable in randomly differing ways from one state to the next. This issue is a REALLY big deal, especially when it is considered murder. Given that potential, this is one of those core issues that must have IDENTICAL valence and treatment across all state lines. One doesn't have women in NYC running about to get hoovered with impunity while Louisiana sends them to prison for doing the same. This "states rights" argument is so hopelessly failed in all its dimensions as to boggle the mind of thinking men when others raise it as some sort of grand political virtue. The very thought that KneeGrows could validly be forced to the back of the bus once again in New Jersey as a matter of "state's rights" is absurd on its face. No state holds valid power to violate the rights of men. PERIOD.

osan, my principled and erudite friend, do you not see how completely you resemble your own remarks, how thoroughly you fall into the trap you so correctly warn against, how one of your principles knocks over another, equal or superior conviction?

You do not leave abortion law to the localities because one region can exist in so different a universe as to make basic right and wrong change places there. You leave it to the localities because, as Jefferson said and time has proven, if the instance comes to pass of the central government micromismanaging every little thing about this nation, it would be the most corrupt government on the face of the earth.

This principle trumps your principle that right is right and that is that. The right thing is to let each locality determine that for themselves, so that the corrupt central government cannot outgrow itself, and that is that.

Obviously you were not of the right mind to put them in their proper places when they came forward with their blank-check iconoclasm. And I must laud you for demonstrating the principle so convincingly. But not even when we all agree wholeheartedly all across the land what does and what does not constitute murder is it the right thing to let the central government define and condemn it, because the right thing to do is to force the central government to defer in all things which can be done at a local level--and clearly this can be done at the local level.
 
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osan, my principled and erudite friend, do you not see how completely you resemble your own remarks, how thoroughly you fall into the trap you so correctly warn against, how one of your principles knocks over another, equal or superior conviction?

You do not leave abortion law to the localities because one region can exist in so different a universe as to make basic right and wrong change places there. You leave it to the localities because, as Jefferson said and time has proven, if the instance comes to pass of the central government micromismanaging every little thing about this nation, it would be the most corrupt government on the face of the earth.

This principle trumps your principle that right is right and that is that. The right thing is to let each locality determine that for themselves, so that the corrupt central government cannot outgrow itself, and that is that.

Obviously you were not of the right mind to put them in their proper places when they came forward with their blank-check iconoclasm. And I must laud you for demonstrating the principle so convincingly. But not even when we all agree wholeheartedly all across the land what does and what does not constitute murder is it the right thing to let the central government define and condemn it, because the right thing to do is to force the central government to defer in all things which can be done at a local level--and clearly this can be done at the local level.

I see what you are saying here, but methinks we are speaking in two differing contexts; I in the principled and you in the real-world. What is right is right, regardless of where we choose to consider an issue. Am I right to rape just because in some middle-eastern nations it is OK, for all practical purposes and I just happen to be vacationing there?

Your argument can be reversed on the localities. Tyranny does not arise solely from large central hubs of violation. We see it at the lowest levels of government. Cops and sheriffs murdering people with impunity. Townships and counties arbitrarily reassessing real-estate values upward because they want more money for whatever God-forsaken idiocy they have vomited forth from the bowels of their demented brains. Meter maids writing false tickets, knowing the courts are going to make the suckers pay, or worse still, having your vehicle towed.

I fear the tyranny of the grasses every bit as much as that of the large predatory cats. People are the root everywhere.
 
I fear the tyranny of the grasses every bit as much as that of the large predatory cats. People are the root everywhere.

Then give yourself an out. Stand by the principle that all politics should be kept as local as possible, and try to keep the tyranny contained. That way, if this community loses their collective minds, you have somewhere to run.

No matter how strongly you feel that an evil is a universal evil, do not call for some kind of national or international or worldwide or universal body of power to combat it on a larger scale. Say, every locality should condemn it but it isn't necessary to open Pandora's Box to do so.

This federal tyranny has grown up around us one rational step at a time. This is so evil it's evil not to pass a federal law against it, even though that federal law is an evil in and of itself because it violates the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. So every step of the growth of this federal tyranny has been, and you have done us the favor of demonstrating just how strong that temptation is at each step. We say the federal government has no business in education, and the progs say we're against education. This is how it works. We feel so strongly about this evil that we will commit that evil to fight it--without even stopping to ask if that's necessary.

If there's a fundamental principle that libertarianism can offer the world that will do the world a world of good, it's this: Thou shalt not have one ounce of government on one tiny bit larger a scale than absolutely possible. That could even be more important than the non-aggression principle.
 
No matter how strongly you feel that an evil is a universal evil, do not call for some kind of national or international or worldwide or universal body of power to combat it on a larger scale.

I do not recall having made such a call. The Constitution structures things a certain way and so long as that is what we have, I say that the so-called "states" are obliged to toe the line of the BoR.


This federal tyranny has grown up around us one rational step at a time.

And in very much the same way, the smaller tyrannies have done the same thing. The Sullivan law of 1911 is a New York City phenomenon, not federal. Long before the feds began attacking the 2A in some earnest, the scoundrels in Manhattan were busily trampling on the rights of its residents.

This is so evil it's evil not to pass a federal law against it, even though that federal law is an evil in and of itself because it violates the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

You seem to be arguing that the federal tyranny is somehow worse than those of the localities. I cannot agree. Its scope is broader, but in many cases the local tyrannies are in fact far and away worse, Sullivan being a case in point.
 
I do not recall having made such a call. The Constitution structures things a certain way and so long as that is what we have, I say that the so-called "states" are obliged to toe the line of the BoR.




And in very much the same way, the smaller tyrannies have done the same thing. The Sullivan law of 1911 is a New York City phenomenon, not federal. Long before the feds began attacking the 2A in some earnest, the scoundrels in Manhattan were busily trampling on the rights of its residents.



You seem to be arguing that the federal tyranny is somehow worse than those of the localities. I cannot agree. Its scope is broader, but in many cases the local tyrannies are in fact far and away worse, Sullivan being a case in point.

Nooooo, I'm saying that so long as your pet peeve is so damned important that there ought to not only be a law, but a federal law, against it, and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments of the B of R you hold so dear be damned, then those same tyrants of New York who hold so many of the wolf votes in this democracy can get their little pet peeves passed on a federal scale, too. It's called precedent. And there is plenty of precedent for big cities clamping down and that fact being used to export tyranny to the whole countryside, where it is neither wanted nor needed. If we say, oh murder is so reprehensible we are evil if we don't pass every law against it we can, on every level we have, even in the federal legislature where such a law is in violation of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, then we have given the people of New York who elect tyrants for their local offices, and tyrants with names like Schumer and Hillary Rodham Clinton to federal office, precedent to pass their own pet federal laws over the objections of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. And we have given them precedent to ignore any part of the Bill of Rights when they find it inconvenient to obey it.

That is how these local tyrannies get enlarged and exported, and wind up ruining a whole country. Because someone says, well, this law doesn't need to be a federal law, but the thing it outlaws is so horrible what harm can it do? How can I fight this law just on the grounds that it shouldn't and doesn't need to be a federal law? Wouldn't stupid people then think I am in favor of the reprehensible act it bans?

This is the fuzzy edge that tyranny always uses to loosen the Constitution's grip on the guarantors of our liberty just a bit--just a little bit.

And it goes back to the thread topic, too. The principle is free speech, so obviously hordes of paid trolls should be allowed to overrun and spam the site, because the amount of money that can be poured into paid speech to enable it to drown out the free speech of individuals is theoretically irrelevant, right? You carve a basic tenet in stone, after months or years of crafting it just so, and a million seekers-after-loopholes will always find ways to chip away at its edges by getting everyone to agree that this exception and that exception are all for good cause, setting precedent, while another million seekers-after-loopholes will try to keep certain basic tenets carved in stone so long as they can use them to subvert their actual purpose.

Let's face it. If you're going to create the perfect system and carve it in stone, and then make an exception every time someone makes a reasonable request to ban at the wrong level a reprehensible practice, you are a damned fool. If a lack of a federal law banning murder is all that is standing between you and New York exporting their local tyranny and creating a federal tyranny, then someone ought to tell you that you're a damned fool for banning murder on a federal level. And if the someone who warns you of that cannot be heard because New Yorkers are utilizing their free speech rights to drown the wise person out, you're liable to make a critical mistake.

You said you were standing in the principled world and I in the real world. I say you stood in neither when you advocated for a federal law against a reprehensible thing, not because of but in spite of the Ninth and Tenth parts of the Bill of Rights. If our principles don't produce desirable results, what fracking good are they?

If our principles don't produce desirable results, what fracking good are they? What yardstick do you use to measure principles? You claimed to stand in the real world, and seemed to relegate me to meaningless principle, when you saw no harm in passing a federal law banning a reprehensible thing. But if an exception can be made to the Bill of Rights, then what good is it?

I got banned from this place for answering something Bryan said to me in a PM in a public thread. I did not copy what he said in the PM, but only revealed it's gist through answering it. That was overturned, with a little help from my friends, and I started a thread addressing some concerns I have about this site. In that thread, LibertyEagle repeatedly accused me of a sin she is far more often guilty of and thoughtomator repeatedly implied that I was a child rapist. Bryan utilized my thread to apologize to them for some nameless past alleged transgression and repeatedly said that it was okay that thoughtomator was violating forum guidelines in my thread with his false and reprehensible implications because he was merely trying to make a point.

And anyone who wishes to form their own opinion of what went down is welcome to do so.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?493387-Once-Upon-a-Time
Anyone who figures out why Bryan was apologizing in my thread to the rude people who were trying to hijack my thread is also invited to let me know, because I have no clue.

Of course, his point was false. He was accusing me of something I was not because he was mad at me for pointing out that certain people were things that those certain people actually were--specifically that I refuse to be shy about pointing out that people who spam Trump are Trump spammers. So, he was making no point at all, he was merely trying to say his implied lies and my clearly stated truths were the same sort of thing. So, here we have a principle disregarded for a seemingly good cause because we're all adults here and can have this conversation, and all that accomplished was to equate implied lies with clearly stated truths--an 'accomplishment' only to a propagandist.

So, on the one hand we have the quest for the perfect set of rules that covers every contingency, which has a structure of principle and real world savvy so perfect that it covers every contingency. And then we have an arrogance that says we can find real world, adult reasons to disregard even the Bill of Rights. What were you saying about foolish people again...?

If your system is perfect then there are no harmless exceptions. If your system is perfect then exceptions are never necessary. If you need to make an exception to your principles, they're imperfect, and if you don't have the fortitude to stand by them even when they're working, then they're worthless.
 
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Nooooo, I'm saying that so long as your pet peeve is so damned important that there ought to not only be a law, but a federal law, against it, and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments of the B of R you hold so dear be damned

Whoa there young fella... That is NOT what I have been saying. Not sure how you came to that inference. The BoR speaks to universal human rights, and therefore ALL states are obliged to respect them. That is part of what it means to be one of the "states" in "united states". I can see no possible argument that might credibly refute this.

, then those same tyrants of New York who hold so many of the wolf votes in this democracy can get their little pet peeves passed on a federal scale, too. It's called precedent.

I think I see what you are saying, but do not see the relevance whether it comes from on high or down low to those affected by the tyrant's whim. OK sure, it sucks more to have a given tyranny spread farther, but it ought not be happening at all and that is why the BoR applies to all states, IMO.

What we have here is a two-edged sword. When the mandate is viewed as "good", everyone has a woodie, dances in the street, kisses dental assistants in Times Square, and so forth. When deemed "bad", they complain, kick their dogs, and on occasion start insurrections.

And there is plenty of precedent for big cities clamping down and that fact being used to export tyranny to the whole countryside, where it is neither wanted nor needed. If we say, oh murder is so reprehensible we are evil if we don't pass every law against it we can, on every level we have, even in the federal legislature where such a law is in violation of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, then we have given the people of New York who elect tyrants for their local offices, and tyrants with names like Schumer and Hillary Rodham Clinton to federal office, precedent to pass their own pet federal laws over the objections of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. And we have given them precedent to ignore any part of the Bill of Rights when they find it inconvenient to obey it.

Well and good and agreed, but I still don't know what I wrote to precipitate this because this isn't even on the same planet as me. Given my druthers, America would be an anarchy yesterday, come what may. But IF we are going pretend to have this idiocy called "the state", then yes, there should be certain codifications in place that it be clear what Theye can and cannot do. It's shyte as far as I am concerned, but it is better than not having it because without it Theye claim whatever dominion suits them and with which they think they can get away.

That is how these local tyrannies get enlarged and exported, and wind up ruining a whole country. Because someone says, well, this law doesn't need to be a federal law, but the thing it outlaws is so horrible what harm can it do? How can I fight this law just on the grounds that it shouldn't and doesn't need to be a federal law? Wouldn't stupid people then think I am in favor of the reprehensible act it bans?

Let us be clear that I am not saying that. At all.

You said you were standing in the principled world and I in the real world. I say you stood in neither when you advocated for a federal law against a reprehensible thing, not because of but in spite of the Ninth and Tenth parts of the Bill of Rights. If our principles don't produce desirable results, what fracking good are they?

BuhWHO? Where did I do this? If I did, I must have just put a sentence together poorly, or you somehow misinterpreted my meaning because this is not how I roll. It is 180* out pf phase with my basic world view.

If our principles don't produce desirable results, what fracking good are they?

Doesn't necessarily mean the principles are bad, but just that the people are not up to living by them.

What yardstick do you use to measure principles?

That of freedom, which has been well defined here more than once.

You claimed to stand in the real world

I did? I thought I'd proposed that perhaps it was YOU who were in the practical world whereas I stood in that of theory. Either you are pulling my leg or I am losing my mind because I am not recalling having expressed myself this way. The latter is by no means the less likely possibility.

, and seemed to relegate me to meaningless principle, when you saw no harm in passing a federal law banning a reprehensible thing. But if an exception can be made to the Bill of Rights, then what good is it?

You really need to point this out because I feel like I've fallen into a crack between two worlds.
 
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You really need to point this out because I feel like I've fallen into a crack between two worlds.

I did. In post 113.

I feel that the principle of local control is completely vital to libertarian principle. I think it as vital as the non-aggression principle, and that it should stand right beside it, or even above it in the basic basics of libertarian thought. In a sense, it belongs beneath the non-aggression principle, because it derives from it--what Washington is doing to us today is just as aggressive as what Moscow did to the USSR. In another sense, I think it belongs above the NAP, because those who would go to battle against certain forms of aggression naturally want to do it on as federal--as universal--a level as possible. But to make a federal law which does not need to be federal is to do harm while doing good.

Some principles must come first, and to me, the principle of local control is that principle. It is first even among equals. I wouldn't have made it the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Knowing what I know now I'd have made it the First and Second.

Not that I came to this conclusion without help...

Thomas Jefferson said:
still should the whole body of New England3 continue in opposition to these principles of government, either knowingly or through delusion, our government will be a very uneasy one. it can never be harmonious & solid, while so respectable a portion of it’s citizens support principles which go directly to a change of the federal constitution, to sink the state governments, consolidate them into one, and to monarchize that. our country is too large to have all it’s affairs directed by a single government. public servants at such a distance, & from under the eye of their constituents, will, from the circumstance of distance, be unable to administer & overlook all the details necessary for the good government of the citizen; and the same circumstance by rendering detection impossible to their constituents, will invite the public agents to corruption, plunder & waste: and I do verily believe that if the principle were to prevail4 of a common law being in force in the US. (which principle possesses the general government at once of all the powers of the state governments, and reduces us to a single consolidated government) it would become the most corrupt government on the face of the earth. you have seen the practices by which the public servants have been able to cover their conduct, or, where that could not be done, the5 delusions by which they have varnished it for the eye of their constituents. what an augmentation of the field for jobbing, speculating, plundering, office-building & office hunting, would be produced by an assumption of all the state powers into the hands of the general government. the true theory of our constitution is surely the wisest & best, that the states are independant as to every thing within themselves, & united as to every thing respecting foreign nations. let the general government be once reduced to foreign concerns only, and let our affairs be disentangled from those of all other nations, except as to commerce which the merchants will manage the better, the more they are left free to manage6 for themselves, and our general government may be reduced to a very simple organization, & a very unexpensive one: a few plain7 duties to be performed by a few servants.
 
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I did. In post 113.

I feel that the principle of local control is completely vital to libertarian principle.

Methinks it the better choice to dispense with labels such as "libertarian" and stick with the primitives such as "freedom". The former serve mostly to cloud the more vital issues. Complementary to noiseless analysis is noisless synthesis. I believe that that is what we need, moving forward.

I cannot answer in greater detail at the moment because I am in the back of my mother's car, driving around Linden NJ in the wake of a truly forgettable Chinese buffet. Someone please call an ambulance.

CONTINUING, NOW THAT I'M ESCAPED FROM NJ...

I think it as vital as the non-aggression principle, and that it should stand right beside it, or even above it in the basic basics of libertarian thought. In a sense, it belongs beneath the non-aggression principle, because it derives from it--what Washington is doing to us today is just as aggressive as what Moscow did to the USSR. In another sense, I think it belongs above the NAP, because those who would go to battle against certain forms of aggression naturally want to do it on as federal--as universal--a level as possible. But to make a federal law which does not need to be federal is to do harm while doing good.

Some principles must come first, and to me, the principle of local control is that principle. It is first even among equals. I wouldn't have made it the Ninth and Tenth Amendments. Knowing what I know now I'd have made it the First and Second.

Not that I came to this conclusion without help...

Your implicit assumption is that all federal law is wrong, simply because it is federal. This doesn't cut muster. Local law can be as bad, or as good. If law is right, then it matters no whit whence it issued. If it is bad, the same applies.

If the fedgov adopted as a matter of the law of the land the principles of proper human relations and governed in stern and competent accord with them, would you still prefer to see corrupt localities exercising their perfidies on their direct constituents?

What counts in my book is the what and not the who or where. A proper foundation and implementation of governance is a good thing no matter who contrives the architecture.
 
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