The Loss of the Right to a Trial by Jury: Child Support and Divorce Cases in America

[MelissaWV]

When I worked for the battered women's shelter, there was a guy who was using the dead-beat laws to punish his wife for leaving.
He beat her severely, and she was unable to take the child when she left, so he filed child support on her while she was living at the shelter knowing she couldn't pay.
I had to go as her rep. to the trial and collections police to stare in disbelief that they were putting her in jail.
She was victimized twice.

Which is why cases deserve to be heard on individual merits, instead of these cookie-cutter messy laws. Spousal support works like that, too, to some extent. If the person doing the beating was also mooching, they can still come after the other person for support. Double-dipping.

Poor kid. Mom's in jail, dad's a wife-beating jerk.

 

[moostraks]

at what age does a "child" "become" an adult?
do they shed a coocon?
I was driving trucks and tractors at the age of 10. I carried firearms, cut wood. I was an adult at 10.
I could grow my own food, i had the skills to survive. Of course, I wasn't treated like a child, so i wasn't a child. Childhood is man-made idea. The process of socialization is real, but a lot of our problem with older teens stems from treating them like children. it is arbitrary.

I really enjoy your thinking even if I disagree with you Torchbearer.

Childhood is not a man made idea it is a real concept. A child does not come equipped with the skills to be self sustaining and must evolve into adulthood. I spoke specifically previously of the lack of ability a child has due to law to be self sustaining. Nor can they enter into a relationship to own property upon which to hunt or grow. So until age of majority in the state of residency they cannot be self sustaining. Don't like it, then change the laws, but I doubt, no change that, I KNOW I would not want to live in a state run by under 18 year olds.

Contrary to your view of your 'childhood' you did not have the experience or emotional maturity a true adult should have nor should you be expected to have such. I have seen most people are not truly capable of rational maturity until sometime around 25 years old in the current society. One can force a bloom on a plant but they are more fragile than if the normal course of life took effect. Something will inevitably suffer.

If your childhood is as you say it was it explains why there is a certain defiance, authoritativeness, and independance in your nature. There is also something quietly unsettled. Child rearing is an art and not a science.

I disagree with the issue being treating them as children being the problem. I think it lies in the arbitrary nature of what we expect out of them and the herd treatment of government schools.

 

[torchbearer]

If your childhood is as you say it was it explains why there is a certain defiance, authoritativeness, and independance in your nature. There is also something quietly unsettled. Child rearing is an art and not a science.

I disagree with the issue being treating them as children being the problem. I think it lies in the arbitrary nature of what we expect out of them and the herd treatment of government schools.

If my childhood produced a natural libertarian, for I've been this way all my life. even registered libertarian at 18. then maybe the problem with our obamabot nation is the ideas of childhood that you seen intent on repeating.
How much time have you dedicated to the study of child socialization?

 

[moostraks]

I am sure you call her a deadbeat, too. I am also sure you tell her that if she doesn't want to pay, she shouldn't have played. She should have kept her legs closed. Isn't this what you're saying of the men involved?

First off my experience was male but by no means is the situation gender exclusive.

Second off I agree with your viewpoint regarding deadbeatness in theory but if one is left with the children to rear them alone with no assistance from the former partner and the custodial parent is providing all their income for their care at the loss of the other's income and physical assistance and unable to make ends meet how is the custodial parent a deadbeat when their entire income provides all the support it is possible to pay for?

At this point living a life of destitution for both the custodial parent and the children is the consequences of her choice (your example) but that does not absolve the non-custodial parent of their responsibilities. No?

And yes she should have kept her legs closed, live and learn and be an example of what not to do and why....

 

[moostraks]

If my childhood produced a natural libertarian, for I've been this way all my life. even registered libertarian at 18. then maybe the problem with our obamabot nation is the ideas of childhood that you seen intent on repeating.
How much time have you dedicated to the study of child socialization?

can you count my psycho-analyzing my parents lack of skill as a child?

What ideas of childhood are you assuming I have that run contrary to forming an adult with emotional stability and the physical capability to be self sufficient?

 

[moostraks]

To think that the current spirit of the law is stalwart self-reliance is fooling oneself, as it is the government here we're talking about.

For one, accepting responsibility for one's choices rarely applies to the female side of the aisle, and to imply that it should is usually met with gasps of horror. I'm not going to get into the abortion side of things because that would just completely derail the thread, but Safe Haven laws allow a mother to simply leave a newborn in front of a hospital, firehouse or other places and completely emancipate oneself for responsibility for that child. The father never needs to be informed, no-one in fact needs to be informed, and that is that. Imagine if a father had the right, at any point in the process, to completely detach himself of any parental responsibility? Blood would run through the streets.

Shoot, let them rescind their rights. Most deadbeats don't though. They often use the money as a way to punish the custodial parent.

This really isn't a gender issue but a custodial issue, imo. Sex has consequences and two people made the decision. Know your partner is really where the problem lay...

 

[moostraks]

When I worked for the battered women's shelter, there was a guy who was using the dead-beat laws to punish his wife for leaving.
He beat her severely, and she was unable to take the child when she left, so he filed child support on her while she was living at the shelter knowing she couldn't pay.
I had to go as her rep. to the trial and collections police to stare in disbelief that they were putting her in jail.
She was victimized twice.

Ugly situation. Having been involved with a similar ex I can understand her pain but it was also her decision to be involved with him. So it was a consequence of her choices. Also I don't know about the shelter she was at but the one I was in helped me find gainful employment so was she incapable of working due to her injuries or hiding within the system? The justice system is not fair and largely revolves upon the capacity of one to purchase a better attorney than their opponent.

 

[kahless]

When I worked for the battered women's shelter, there was a guy who was using the dead-beat laws to punish his wife for leaving.
He beat her severely, and she was unable to take the child when she left, so he filed child support on her while she was living at the shelter knowing she couldn't pay.
I had to go as her rep. to the trial and collections police to stare in disbelief that they were putting her in jail.
She was victimized twice.

If we lived in a free society our options would be in this order of choice with government involvement only after all choices have been exhausted between the parties.

1. Shared parenting. Both parents in the childs life rather than having one as a visitor IS in most cases in the best interests of child. I am sure someone will point out how this will not work for deviants but the overwhelming majority of men are not deviants as some here would like you to believe.

2. If the parent that cannot afford to raise the child and does not wish to participate in option 1 then full custody goes to the parent that can best support the child. Either work it out or lose custody before burdening the system - taxpayers.

3. If one parent wants full custody while the other does not and does not want to participate in options 1 or 2 then no child support changes hands.

4. If a parent cannot afford to raise the child and the other parent does not wish to participate in option 1, 2 or 3 only then should there be a trial. If the last sentance is in fact true then the non-custodial parent should be expected to provide support based on actual documented expenses split 50/50 with the custodial parent. All monies must be accounted for.

The custodial parent must be held accountable for the expenses and maintain receipts. If the non-custodial fails to pay then you have a court date set to deterimine the reason for neglect. It is then determined if the failure was intentional, was it due to job loss, illness or just a dead broke dad with a best effort being made.

What I describe above would prevent honest people from wrongly being victimized by the system as well as horrific example that torchbearer described. It is also in the best interests of the children since it encourages a two parent household. It also keeps the government in most cases out of it so it does not become a burden to the courts or taxpayers.

Of course lawyers, all levels of government regardless of party and greedy lazy custodial parents hate the plan above since they lose power and their free ride off the backs of slaves.

 

[torchbearer]

can you count my psycho-analyzing my parents lack of skill as a child?

What ideas of childhood are you assuming I have that run contrary to forming an adult with emotional stability and the physical capability to be self sufficient?

you mean to say, what part of prolonged childhood develops dependancy on a nanny state?
Their every rule is set by the state. The state is their father, you are just an interim care giver.

 

[moostraks]

you mean to say, what part of prolonged childhood develops dependancy on a nanny state?
Their every rule is set by the state. The state is their father, you are just an interim care giver.

prolonged childhood? when are they an adult in your eyes? Apparently before 10 which shows your lack of experience with children as 10 year olds do not have the emotional or physical capacity of being self sufficient. You might be able to hunt but it takes more than having killed a deer to provide all of one's daily needs. You might have been capable of running a piece of machinery but proven rational decision making decides when one should be given the keys to the car.

Should murder be legal? Should their be a consequence for broken contracts? Should there be no consequence for leaving a child to perish in a locked car on a hot day when they are strapped in a car seat? Should parents be held accountable for failure to provide food or shelter? Where do you draw the line of acceptable loss of life and where do you believe the protection of the sanctity of life occurs?

So you want anarchy?

Me, not so much...

 

[moostraks]

If we lived in a free society our options would be in this order of choice with government involvement only after all choices have been exhausted between the parties.

1. Shared parenting. Both parents in the childs life rather than having one as a visitor IS in most cases in the best interests of child. I am sure someone will point out how this will not work for deviants but the overwhelming majority of men are not deviants as some here would like you to believe.

2. If the parent that cannot afford to raise the child and does not wish to participate in option 1 then full custody goes to the parent that can best support the child. Either work it out or lose custody before burdening the system - taxpayers.

3. If one parent wants full custody while the other does not and does not want to participate in options 1 or 2 then no child support changes hands.

4. If a parent cannot afford to raise the child and the other parent does not wish to participate in option 1, 2 or 3 only then should there be a trial. If the last sentance is in fact true then the non-custodial parent should be expected to provide support based on actual documented expenses split 50/50 with the custodial parent. All monies must be accounted for.

The custodial parent must be held accountable for the expenses and maintain receipts. If the non-custodial fails to pay then you have a court date set to deterimine the reason for neglect. It is then determined if the failure was intentional, was it due to job loss, illness or just a dead broke dad with a best effort being made.

What I describe above would prevent honest people from wrongly being victimized by the system as well as horrific example that torchbearer described. It is also in the best interests of the children since it encourages a two parent household. It also keeps the government in most cases out of it so it does not become a burden to the courts or taxpayers.

Of course lawyers, all levels of government regardless of party and greedy lazy custodial parents hate the plan above since they lose power and their free ride off the backs of slaves.

I actually sort of agree with you here, excepting the fact that you seem to think that all decisions in life should automatically come with a do over switch. Some decisions in life come with weightier consequences. In the case of children, especially those that were mutually desired in a former relationship, one doesn't just get to say parenting stinks and quit. They can quit when the age of majority hits or there should be something more aggressive to punish then just loss of parental rights.

Someone posted previously the safe haven laws, yeah great for infants but maybe they should research what happened in Nebraska I believe it was when it was extended to teens. If you dump a child over the safe haven infant age on the state you pay child support. Consequences suck....

If there is no consequences then there is no reason to be responsible.

 

[torchbearer]

prolonged childhood? when are they an adult in your eyes? Apparently before 10 which shows your lack of experience with children as 10 year olds do not have the emotional or physical capacity of being self sufficient.

I was emotionly and physical capable of surviving on my own at 10.
People got married at 13 in some cultures.
You really should study the facts on human development before you continue to project your distortions on your children. though it may already be too late for that.

can every 10 year old do as I did. no. age is arbitrary marker. some humans will never develop beyond a retarded mind.
Once you get abstract thinking and empathy down- you can negotiate successfully with other adults and enter contracts of meaning. learning survival skills come from parents, not the government.
if you can't teach your child to survive on their own by an early age, you have failed them.

i believe in small local government for sure. definitely no anarchy.
though i find it completely amusing that statist call me an anarchist and anarchist call me a statist.
People need to read more Thomas Jefferson and the dispersement of power.

 

[moostraks]

I was emotionly and physical capable of surviving on my own at 10.
People got married at 13 in some cultures.
You really should study the facts on human development before you continue to project your distortions on your children. though it may already be too late for that.

can every 10 year old do as I did. no. age is arbitrary marker. some humans will never develop beyond a retarded mind.
Once you get abstract thinking and empathy down- you can negotiate successfully with other adults and enter contracts of meaning. learning survival skills come from parents, not the government.
if you can't teach your child to survive on their own by an early age, you have failed them.

i believe in small local government for sure. definitely no anarchy.
though i find it completely amusing that statist call me an anarchist and anarchist call me a statist.
People need to read more Thomas Jefferson and the dispersement of power.

We aren't talking about some cultures we are talking about our culture, no?

Lol on you getting it from both sides. I believe in small local government as well so to that end we agree.

Parents fail children by expecting them to be mini adults and providing situations beyond their maturity level and expecting the rationalism of an adult. By allowing a person to evolve into themselves slowly with sensitivity to certain halmarks of one's age and provide increasing success/failure opportunities and security you will reap better results. Try your method and let me know how it works for you.

Furthermore, your method has been tried by government schools. Wean them from the family unit while emotionally immature and teach them to thrive in community with a stranger in charge and conform to their peer groups standards.(small local government, you see) Eat or be eaten...

As for human development (and not from a book only but real life humans), I have studied enough to know you are out of you gourd in your assessments,imo. We clearly stand as polar opposites in our views.

BTW I think you think too highly of yourself at ten and time has done grave things to your memory. Unless you are elderly you would be incapable of self sufficient existence at 10 due to the laws which limit the capacity of a minor to be self sufficient (and even way back when it was probably impossible-legally) Assuming we are still refering to the lack of need for child support on this thread?

 

[torchbearer]

Parents fail children by expecting them to be mini adults and providing situations beyond their maturity level and expecting the rationalism of an adult.

do you see everything you posted right there^
how do you know that is beyond their maturity level? if you treat a 14 year old like a child, he will behave like a child. if he is retarded, that is because of mental disability. but if the brain is normal, it is because of expectation.
Did I mention that this isn't my opinion but scientific research?
My degree is in sociology.
the post about child brain development and what they can be expected to learn and task they can do comes from a detailed study of socialization of children.
it is not determined by age, but by steps or progressions that all minds go through. a lot of it is environment. your exectations of what child development should be is what leads to your post above.
I'm not an exception in my family. My siblings and cousins all developed to self-sustaining at an early age. The expectation was that you were capable of adult status and responsibility around 10. And that is what happened.
This is our culture, here in the states. In rural louisiana on the farm. These country boys can survive.

The post about pro-longed childhood causing troubled teens is an actual study in criminal justice. it has backing and merit.

 

[moostraks]

Torchbearer-let me attest to you what failure to allow for one to have a childhood stifles and I see this because I attempt to be extremely sensitive to my children's needs after the nightmare my eldest put me through and my allowing the state to usurp my parental authority.

In using a curriculum for homeschooling that deals with children on a mature level as mini adults I watched my child lose creativity and it was as if the spark of imagination was drowning in her. By trying to discuss ethics and force certain decision making before she was capable I was destroying a part of her soul one only strengthens by being a child.

It is the hallmark of any child force to grow up too soon due to circumstances beyond their control. It makes people too serious and lacking in ingenuity. They may be hard working but they don't know how to enjoy life to the fullest. I notice in in the Amish communities and it was the same curriculum I was using and expectations of early maturity that caused my own child's seriousness.

Having seen many of your own arguments, I don't doubt much was expected of you be it externally or internally, at an early age. It doesn't mean it is the right way to raise a well rounded child.

 

[Keller1967]

the right to trial by jury is in criminal cases.

If you don't pay the child support that is decided in these "non-criminal" cases you go to jail. If you don't pay because you lost your job you go to jail. How is this not a criminal case? The punishments are treated as criminal.

 

[torchbearer]

Having seen many of your own arguments, I don't doubt much was expected of you be it externally or internally, at an early age. It doesn't mean it is the right way to raise a well rounded child.

yet, this child grew up understanding libertarianism through self-reliance, and most of the other kids had to be rehabed into libertarianism. which method is better?
see the thread dealing with "I was a neocon/dem/indie before I heard about ron paul" . paraphrased title.

 

[torchbearer]

If you don't pay the child support that is decided in these "non-criminal" cases you go to jail. If you don't pay because you lost your job you go to jail. How is this not a criminal case? The punishments are treated as criminal.

hypocrisy of law. it happens when government delves into areas it shouldn't be in.
same with drug laws.

 

[moostraks]

do you see everything you posted right there^
how do you know that is beyond their maturity level? if you treat a 14 year old like a child, he will behave like a child. if he is retarded, that is because of mental disability. but if the brain is normal, it is because of expectation.
Did I mention that this isn't my opinion but scientific research?
My degree is in sociology.
the post about child brain development and what they can be expected to learn and task they can do comes from a detailed study of socialization of children.
it is not determined by age, but by steps or progressions that all minds go through. a lot of it is environment. your exectations of what child development should be is what leads to your post above.
I'm not an exception in my family. My siblings and cousins all developed to self-sustaining at an early age. The expectation was that you were capable of adult status and responsibility around 10. And that is what happened.
This is our culture, here in the states. In rural louisiana on the farm. These country boys can survive.

The post about pro-longed childhood causing troubled teens is an actual study in criminal justice. it has backing and merit.

I am sure you believe the study has merit. I disagree with you and my experiences guide my decision making.

I know what is beyond the child's specific capacity because I am involved with them. I do not have the 3 year old cook dinner because I know him. I accept the limitations of the society we are in and work within that framework while attempting to raise awareness through my willingness to openly discuss my experiences both good and bad,fwiw to those who listen. It is up to an individual to make their own choices what to leave or what to take away from the discussion.

As for what I challenge them with, please see that I walked a path of similar context to that which you advocate and I saw how it killed their spirit. So now, based on my experience, I let them chase butterflies as much as possible so they learn not to be hyper critical adults that grow up before their time. It is not a matter of stifiling them-which would be equally as cruel- but knowing them and teaching them to stop and smell the flowers while providing age appropriate situations for them to learn from and provide the security that you are there for them.

 

[moostraks]

yet, this child grew up understanding libertarianism through self-reliance, and most of the other kids had to be rehabed into libertarianism. which method is better?
see the thread dealing with "I was a neocon/dem/indie before I heard about ron paul" . paraphrased title.

Lol...so you are better than others how? Was this a race? Without the benefit of some experiences you also lose certain opportunities.

I find it hard to picture you loosening your tie.:o

Again, parenting is an art not a science....