The Koch Bros. Love Herman Cain & Hate Ron Paul

FrankRep said:
You're the one attacking the Koch Family and Koch Industries, Inc.
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If you wish to support corporate welfare queens than that is your folly.

Oh looky. They applied for government money from Obama's health care plan.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/provisions/retirement/states/ks.html

The Affordable Care Act creates a new program called the Early Retiree Reinsurance Program to help address this challenge that employers and older employees are facing. The Early Retiree Reinsurance Program provides $5 billion in financial assistance to employers and unions to help them maintain coverage for early retirees age 55 and older who are not yet eligible for Medicare.

HHS has approved the following sponsors from Kansas. More applications are being approved each day.
...
Koch Industries, Inc.
...
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In Alaska Koch Industries asked Governor Palin to bailout their failing oil refinery.

http://www.andrewhalcro.com/permafrost_friday_the_kochtopus_in_alaska

Okay so they need government help to pull some oil out of the ground. What about paper?

In 2006, Koch Industries acquired pulp and paper giant Georgia-Pacific for a $21-billion cash payment, allowing the Koch brothers to tap into a whole new area of government largesse: the ability to log public forests for private gain and have taxpayers cover the operating costs. Not only can companies like Georgia-Pacific, which is the world's leading manufacturer of paper products, exploit a publicly-shared resource without sharing the profits, but the U.S. Forestry Service subsidizes them to do it by forcing taxpayers to fund the construction of new logging roads that provide loggers with access to virgin growth—a nice welfare arrangement for the industry that costs taxpayers over $1 billion a year.

"Private logging of America's National Forests is a heavily subsidized form of corporate welfare," wrote Scott Silver, founder and executive director of Wild Wilderness, a conservation watchdog, at the time of the Georgia-Pacific's sale to Koch Industries. "Logging companies such as Georgia-Pacific strip lands bare, destroy vast acreages and pay only a small fee to the federal government in proportion to what they take from the public."
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http://www.observer.com/2010/slideshow/131739/logging

Well isn't that special. They get the equivalent of 1/3 of NASA's budget each year in perks for their paper mills. Ok so they are not so good when it comes to welfare. What about property rights?

Oh looky they got their pipeline built by using government force via eminent domain to steal people's property. That is really principled of them. How nice. I guess that was okay because those people were just slaves.

But not all property rights are created equal. Koch Industries oil pipeline recently built in Minnesota shows that Charles Koch does not see an is anything wrong with the government confiscating private property, as long as he stands to make a profit. Completed in 2008, the 304-mile line now carries crude oil from the Canadian border to a Koch Industries refinery near the Twin Cities area via a two-foot-wide pipe. Company PR execs pitched the pipeline as a public benefit project, as it would increase Minnesota's gasoline supply. But the 1,000-plus landowners who were forced to handover their private property so that Koch Industries could run its pipeline didn't quite see it that way. "People's rights were violated, and they never got their due process," a farmer whose fields were going to be cut in two by the pipeline told a newspaper in 2007. "It's wrong. People's property is one of the most important things to their livelihood."

Getty Images
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http://www.observer.com/2010/slideshow/131739/eminent-domain


There you have it folks. Libertarian in name only. Actions are everything.
 
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The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.
 
BRG253 said:
The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.
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You can't be a libertarian and hold a given set of principles then live your life in a way that constantly violates them. Firstly no one will take you seriously and they shouldn't because you decided that your values are not even worthy of upholding in your own life. Your actions discredit your values. People generally don't give a shit about what someone says and consider actions more important.
 
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EndDaFed said:
You can't be a libertarian and hold a given set of principles then live your life in a way that constantly violates them. Firstly no one will take you seriously and they shouldn't because you decide that your values are not even worthy of upholding in your own life.
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It's the I'm More Libertarian Than You! Argument. I see.
 
FrankRep said:
It's the I'm More Libertarian Than You! Argument. I see.
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No, it's the basic requirement of being a libertarian. If you don't live your values you don't really value them. It's that simple. You can keep defending a thief who used government force to steal property from 1000 individuals. If that is who you would like to associate your values with then so be it.
 
EndDaFed said:
No, it's the basic requirement of being a libertarian. If you don't live your values you don't really value them. It's that simple. You can keep defending a thief who used government force to steal property from 1000 individuals. If that is who you would like to associate your values with then so be it.
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No, it's not "that simple." This "pure" Libertarian debate is silly and downright self-destructive.
 
FrankRep said:
No, it's not "that simple." This "pure" Libertarian debate is silly and downright self-destructive.
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Simple question. Is using government force to steal 1000 properties in order to build a pipeline wrong? Yes or no.
 
BRG253 said:
The Kochs are operating within the system they're stuck with. Them accepting corporate wellfare is no different than a Ron Paul supporter accepting a federal student loan or social security. They oppose the existence of such programs, but as long as the programs exist, they have to participate in order to compete with the other firms. It's not that complicated.
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I think the difference is that accepting student loans or social security is simply repossessing property already stolen by the government. That pipeline on the other hand needed the government to commit further theft in order for it to be built.
 
EndDaFed said:
Simple question. Is using government force to steal 1000 properties in order to build a pipeline wrong? Yes or no.
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I'm sorry to tell you, but you're Libertarian Utopia isn't possible nor realistic.


Most of the land owners agreed to the project, which I think makes it less of a big deal.
Patty Dunn, Minnesota Pipe Line Company's public relations for the MinnCan project, said about 80 percent of the landowners have signed the easement agreements.​


The Minnesota Public Utilities Commission (PUC) felt the MinnCan Project was necessary to strengthen Minnesota’s energy future.
 
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FrankRep said:
Most of the land owners agreed to the project, which I think makes it less of a big deal.
Patty Dunn, Minnesota Pipe Line Company's public relations for the MinnCan project, said about 80 percent of the landowners have signed the easement agreements.​


The Minnesota Public Utilities Commission (PUC) felt the MinnCan Project was necessary to strengthen Minnesota’s energy future.
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Oh so they only were an accomplice to theft of ~200 peoples' homes
 
If this is true, we simply need to follow the money. The Koch bros can say whatever they want. But if they are going with Cain over Paul, they aren't libertarians, and are most likely benefiting from the MIC or some other gov't sponsored scheme.
 
Fredom101 said:
If this is true, we simply need to follow the money. The Koch bros can say whatever they want. But if they are going with Cain over Paul, they aren't libertarians, and are most likely benefiting from the MIC or some other gov't sponsored scheme.
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Just like Donald Trump said: "I like Ron Paul, but he has 0% chance of winning."
I think the Koch Brothers are looking for a small government guy that has a chance of winning.

Reality is harsh. Sorry.
 
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