The human reality of nuclear war

[constituent]

Yongrel, your a thinking chap, you look up 'Shattered Jewels' and how it applied to Japanese military strategy. It really becomes tragically clear why the bomb was needed. Westerners just have so little concept of Asian thinking. The rough part is how it changes, too, from people to people. But, Yong, take a look a bit at the concept and precept, and tell me how YOU see it. Constituent seems intent on being ignorant.

yes, those bloody, bloodthirsty asians.


[lord knows there were no resistance movements.... wtf/ever]


such the collectivist. why am i still bothering?

 

[hairball]

yes, those bloody, bloodthirsty asians.


[lord knows there were no resistance movements.... wtf/ever]


such the collectivist. why am i still bothering?

Perhaps because you are hoping to goad me into doing your homework for YOU. For a person who considers himself an individual, you share a common ignorance of history, and of the nature of other cultures, all the while intentionally misunderstanding ME to make yourself look thoughtful.

Come on, do yourself a favor and look at the Japanese strategy of 'Shattered Jewels' and you will then see what I see, and perhaps then you will have an appreciation for the history and the moment of decision. I did not talk about bloodthirsty asians, those are your words, and your shameful twisting and spinning.

I gave you somehting to consider, it is up to YOU to learn.

 

[constituent]

(since your "shattered jewels" bit is a total canard, and an utter failure of an excuse for the dropping of the "two mushroom clouds of justice" as you so eloquently stated)

From Embracing Defeat

As the war drew closer home, civilians had also been indoctrinated to fight to the bitter end and die "like shattered jewels," as the saying went. In the wake of the emperor's words, however, the number who actually chose the jeweled path was fewer than had been imagined. Several hundred individuals, most of them military officers, commited suicide.

The germans were told essentially the same thing. We would be too under similar circumstances; of that I have little doubt.

And let us also remember, that (as the book cited notes) the citizens of Japan were not "citizens," but rather "subjects" of the emperor.

Also, "shattered jewels" was not a fighting technique, nor a tactic of war. It was an artistic/literary ideal that the emperor tried to capitalize on in a last desperate effort to have his subjects save his ass (which they didn't).

You are way off, share a common ignorance of history and are an asshole (troll) to boot! Congratulations.


Good day hairball, you've been coughed up.

 

[pcosmar]

WAR SUCKS
That is why it should be avoided, until it is unavoidable.

Before anybody gets all bent out of shape about the bombing of Japan, These are a few bits of history you should look at.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/battleforAustralia/JapWarCrimes/Cross-section_JapWarCrimes.html
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/

 

[Kraig]

It was really a choice between bombing Japan and invading Japan. Had we invaded there would have still been thousands of Japanese civilians who would have died and many of them would not have been "innocent" rather they would have been fighting us to the bitter end with the same conviction of their armed forces. Our leaders chose to spare the lives on the American side and I think that was a good choice. You can debate forever over the specifics of how many would have died from invasion vs. a bomb but the truth is there was no way for the Japanese people to live happily ever after at that point, the true tragedy was the start of the war, and willingness to go to war. It is also good to remember that after their navy was completely smashed in the Pacific, when they should have realized it was already lost, their leaders were willing to let their country get nuked not once but twice before they were willing to give up their precious war.

 

[constituent]

<snip>

when they should have realized it was already lost, their leaders were willing to let their country get nuked not once but twice before they were willing to give up their precious war.

that's just it though, the leaders were the problem, not the people.

i find it hard to believe that after the navy was defeated it would have been that difficult to spark a popular uprising against the ruling class (taking a lesson from the history books), and would have been vastly preferable to the needless murder of innocent people.

if you don't think it was needless, i recommend the PBS Nova on Einstein and the Bomb, it really puts the whole thing into perspective.

 

[Kraig]

Yes the leaders were the problem but it was not just them, they had an entire country backing them up. No of course you cannot collectively judge their population and say they were all guilty, you also cannot collectively judge them to all be innocent. From our position in the war we could not perfectly prevent all innocents from dying, thousands of innocents would have died during an invasion and there was absolutely no guarantee an invasion would have been successful.

 

[constituent]

Yes the leaders were the problem but it was not just them, they had an entire country backing them up. No of course you cannot collectively judge their population and say they were all guilty, you also cannot collectively judge them to all be innocent. From our position in the war we could not perfectly prevent all innocents from dying, thousands of innocents would have died during an invasion and there was absolutely no guarantee an invasion would have been successful.

Something to consider from atomic archive

The Story of Hiroshima

Why Hiroshima?

Hiroshima was chosen as the primary target since it had remained largely untouched by bombing raids, and the bomb's effects could be clearly measured. While President Truman had hoped for a purely military target, some advisers believed that bombing an urban area might break the fighting will of the Japanese people. Hiroshima was a major port and a military headquarters, and therefore a strategic target. Also, visual bombing, rather than radar, would be used so that photographs of the damage could be taken. Since Hiroshima had not been seriously harmed by bombing raids, these photographs could present a fairly clear picture of the bomb's damage.




From wiki

Hiroshima was chosen because of its large size, its being "an important army depot" and the potential that the bomb would cause greater destruction because the city was surrounded by hills which would have a "focusing effect".[9]

 

[Tsar Bomba]

Wow, just checking in after a full day of starting this thread.

I'm surprised to see as much ignorance and hatred as I do here - how can anyone say that this was "fully justified". Do you think most of these people had anything to do with the war? To say that mass murder of peaceful citizens, subjects, etc. is "justified" is flat out sick. It also means that you have no capacity to reason for yourself and look at the reality of what happened there. Also know that the attack on Pearl Harbor was *allowed* to happen so that the US could react - there was plenty of advanced warning.

Maybe I'll get bitch slapped for this but let's put this into perspective. Most Americans DO NOT support the war in Iraq, Dubya is the most unpopular president in history with an abysmal approval rating. Dubya doesn't follow the will of the people, he charts his own course, he is a dictator...an emperor.

If NY gets nuked tomorrow by "terrorists", would you call that blowback from an aggressive, war-mongering president or would it be the fault of the citizens of NYC, even though they do not support him? Would the folks who die in that scenario be considered innocent, peaceful civilians by the perpetrators of the act or would they be lumped in with their "leader" and consider it "fully justified"?

 

[amy31416]

Personally, I'm torn about the US' use of nuclear weapons. Einstein, Lise Meitner and many other scientists whose work had inadvertantly contributed to the development of nuclear weapons were mortified that it would be used to destroy human life.

But, I also understand Truman's very difficult choice: allow the war to drag on and lose large numbers of American lives on the battlefield in Japan, or use the technology to put a fast end to the war, but with a lot of innocent lives lost.

Then again I've read so much about the horrific effects of a nuclear bomb on the population, the environment. I've seen the pictures of people with the pattern of their clothing burned into their skin. It's horrible. All war is horrible.

I don't understand why the Japanese didn't surrender after Hiroshima, the US warned them that there would be more.

But, as others have stated, we need to make sure it never happens again.

 

[pcosmar]

The human reality of nuclear war

How about the reality of NON nuclear war.

War Sucks

The Nanking Massacre, commonly known as the Rape of Nanking, because many local women were raped, was an infamous war crime committed by the Japanese military in Nanjing (historically known as Nanking), then the capital of the Republic of China, after it fell to the Imperial Japanese Army on December 13, 1937. The duration of the massacre is not clearly defined, although the violence lasted well into the next six weeks, until early February 1938.

That was before Pearl Harbor. The Imperial Japanese were ruthless.

I won't post the graphic photos. You can look it up your self.

Also look at the London blitz. Dresden. Stalingrad. The death camps.

Of course you can also research Viet Nam and Korea.

There were no nukes used in any of them.

They were used to bring and end to a long and bloody war.
They should NEVER be considered as a First Strike option.

 

[Kraig]

Yeah that's all I was saying, it wasn't a choice between nukes and rainbows.

 

[hairball]

(since your "shattered jewels" bit is a total canard, and an utter failure of an excuse for the dropping of the "two mushroom clouds of justice" as you so eloquently stated)

From Embracing Defeat


The germans were told essentially the same thing. We would be too under similar circumstances; of that I have little doubt.

And let us also remember, that (as the book cited notes) the citizens of Japan were not "citizens," but rather "subjects" of the emperor.

Also, "shattered jewels" was not a fighting technique, nor a tactic of war. It was an artistic/literary ideal that the emperor tried to capitalize on in a last desperate effort to have his subjects save his ass (which they didn't).

You are way off, share a common ignorance of history and are an asshole (troll) to boot! Congratulations.


Good day hairball, you've been coughed up.

You know you have gotten someone's goat when they start(or finish) with the petty insults.

If you had honestly searched for the concept, you also would have found what American planners had figured into the unavoidable invasion of the Japanese home islands.

The leaders were taking a willing populace towards a road of final extermination. Unlike the Germans, which started pitching arms and surrendering, the Japanese soldiers, and a lot of civilians on Okinawa died rather than face defeat.

You talk of individual citizens, Constituent, but as I pointed out, the Japanese nelieved their Emperor was divine and above question in his rule. If the Emperor had decided, along with the generals, to fight till every Japanese person was dead, the people would have gone for it.

I understand it is foreign to you, the thoughts and ratioanle of other people, but that was the harsh reality. The two bombs brought home the futility of fighting, because the Japanese people would not get a chance to fight to extinction, they would only be vaporized. A different mindset, and you do have a hadr time delineating differences in behavior.

We were left with little choice, and yes, the bombs, both and more if needed were completely and fully justified. I am content knowing Col. Tibbets felt no guilt over a mission well done.

Constituent, you are earnest and zealous, but you make the same mistake Rush Limbaugh makes. You get your facts in line and will follow the wrong conclusion. Perhaps, you should emulate el Rushbo quite so much, it leaves you blinded from reason.

 

[Lou337]

We provoked Pearl Harbor by refusing to trade our oil with the Japanese. They had little choice. Invade Singapore for oil supplies meant attacking the British, who were allied with us. Only way to have averted it was to keep trading with them.

 

[klamath]

I am glad you have a concept of the history of war. War is hell one way or another! America was lucky in the fact that war was never fought on our soil in WWII otherwise those images would have been American bodies not British, Russian, Germans, Japanese, Chinese etc etc. Once you apeal your case to the war Gods horrible things are going to happen.
More people died in one night of the firebombing of tokio than one of the nuclear bombs.
War should never Never NEVER be gone into lightly for it unleashes all in one act every worst element of human nature. I am a veteran of three wars, unfortunately all of them wrong.

How about the reality of NON nuclear war.

War Sucks


That was before Pearl Harbor. The Imperial Japanese were ruthless.

I won't post the graphic photos. You can look it up your self.

Also look at the London blitz. Dresden. Stalingrad. The death camps.

Of course you can also research Viet Nam and Korea.

There were no nukes used in any of them.

They were used to bring and end to a long and bloody war.
They should NEVER be considered as a First Strike option.

 

[klamath]

We provoked Pearl Harbor by refusing to trade our oil with the Japanese. They had little choice. Invade Singapore for oil supplies meant attacking the British, who were allied with us. Only way to have averted it was to keep trading with them.

Did you forget about Manchuria before that?

 

[constituent]

You know you have gotten someone's goat when they start(or finish) with the petty insults.

Constituent, you are earnest and zealous, but you make the same mistake Rush Limbaugh makes. You get your facts in line and will follow the wrong conclusion. Perhaps, you should emulate el Rushbo quite so much, it leaves you blinded from reason.

Let us apply this standard to you.... one moment, i'll need to multi-quote.

 

[constituent]

Stick to your storng suit. Simple is you.


Look, since you are obviously ignorant...

...

Look it up, think about it a bit, maybe a second or two, as your attention span allows. Then get back to me.

Show us what YOU know, Bubba.

My bad, typing is not my strong suit, as knowledge is not yours.

Constituent seems intent on being ignorant.

For a person who considers himself an individual, you share a common ignorance of history, and of the nature of other cultures, all the while intentionally misunderstanding ME to make yourself look thoughtful.

Come on, do yourself a favor and look at the Japanese strategy of 'Shattered Jewels' and you will then see what I see, and perhaps then you will have an appreciation for the history and the moment of decision.

Guess that about does it then.

and "Shattered Jewels" wasn't a strategy, it was more like a slogan.

:: Washes Hands ::

 

[SeanEdwards]

We provoked Pearl Harbor by refusing to trade our oil with the Japanese. They had little choice. Invade Singapore for oil supplies meant attacking the British, who were allied with us. Only way to have averted it was to keep trading with them.

Hey, that's good. That sounds a lot like the neoconish justification for seizing control of mideast oil from arab and persian nationalists.

 

[OptionsTrader]

"Murdering millions in an instant is justifiable if ... "

And now the propaganda we are supposed to believe, and a majority do, "Invading and occupying the Missle East makes us safer from terrorists."

Every generation has an untruthful horribly successful propaganda campaign against them.

It is sad to see so many here still believe the propaganda from the 40s that their parents and grandparents have passed down.