The Decline And Fall of the Liberty Movement, Illustrated

[PierzStyx]

This is where you get it wrong Gunny. No one said they wanted Trump over any Liberty candidate. He's the guy we have and he seems approachable with liberty ideas. We want to take the opportunity to advance our Constitutional values. You're being a "purist" because you're shutting out any possibility of conversion. And this attitude goes towards piers as well. There's a slew of new voters who are excited about their diluted idea of Liberty but instead of welcoming them and encouraging them to learn you want to mash their heads into the dirt with all their "mistakes". I don't see how, in your position, you're so undiplomatic :d

He isn't the guy we have. He is the guy the neocons have. That much should be obvious.

And what possibility of conversion have you seen in all of Trump's history of being a Leftist?

While you're right, maybe we have ridden a few too hard, the reason that happened was because of the reality of the many though.

There isn't even a dilution of freedom with Trump. There was that with Rand, but not with Trump. Trump is an authoritarian. He wants power. He wants prestige. He wants to use, abuse, and lose people as it benefits him to do so. And people coming in here claiming that his authoritarian, abusive, destructive ideas are somehow going to make us free need to be put on notice. This is not the place to support the State.

The worst though are those who have long been here and are betraying everything they know about liberty in order to support Trump. They should know better. But either they do not or they do not care. That garbage needs to be exposed for what it is: anti-liberty; anti-humanity; anti-freedom. They deserve to be exposed to criticism and disdain for supporting things obviously opposed to the ideas of liberty and freedom.

 

[Cleaner44]

Another convenient case of forgetting everything Trump has ever said in favor of one time where he said one critical thing at a crucial point of the election in order to shore up support for his candidacy.

I am not forgetting everything Trump has ever said, in fact I have paid very little attention to most of what he has ever said. I have never been a fan, don't read his books, don't watch his shows and basically see him as a Romney flip-flopper.

I care about actions, not words. I am hoping that his actions will have some good results mixed in with what I assume will be some poor results.

 

[The Gold Standard]

Utter f*cking maddness. What the hell happened? Is what is going on in Ron Paul Forums mirrored everywhere else in the liberty movement?

Why do people keep bringing up the liberty movement? Absolutely none of the discussion going on here has anything to do with liberty. You have people pointing out how Trump is no different from those that came before him. You have Trump's fanatics saying it is all part of a master plan of deception. The Trumphumpers get triggered by the accusations, and everyone else just gets fed up with their eruptions afterward. Trump has proposed nothing that is friendly to liberty, he didn't run on a platform to increase liberty, he doesn't give a fuck about liberty.

 

[Athan]

Why do people keep bringing up the liberty movement? Absolutely none of the discussion going on here has anything to do with liberty. You have people pointing out how Trump is no different from those that came before him. You have Trump's fanatics saying it is all part of a master plan of deception. The Trumphumpers get triggered by the accusations, and everyone else just gets fed up with their eruptions afterward. Trump has proposed nothing that is friendly to liberty, he didn't run on a platform to increase liberty, he doesn't give a $#@! about liberty.

Yeah sounds like you all have a silly squabble cycle going on.

 

[Cleaner44]

What Trumpkin Says: "Hey guys, let's stop bickering, let's go fight for liberty together!"

What Trumpkin Means: "Hey guys, stop criticizing Trump, he's great, let's pretend like supporting him advances liberty!"

There is no common ground between the Trumpkin and the libertarian, none, nada, zip, zilch.

The liberty movement is in ruins because it was coopted by Trumpism.

The only hope of it ever rising again from the ashes is for we very few remaining libertarians to circle the wagons.

We can't possibly defeat the enemy if we pretend like he's an ally.

I don't see how treating the Trump administration as an enemy will help advance liberty.

I can see how Rand Paul could potentially influence the Trump administration and maybe make something positive happen, such as DownsizeDC.org's "One Subject at a Time Act" (OSTA)

Just imagine if Trump got behind the “Write the Laws Act” (WTLA)...

It may be a long shot, but it is worth fighting for in my opinion... or you could circle the wagons with Gary Johnson and Bill Weld and figure out a better way to advance liberty.

 

[PierzStyx]

For better or for worse, Trump is the president-elect. That's our truth for the next 4-8 years. I am really happy Rand did not burn bridges with Trump. It can only work to our advantage. Ron, however, has not been so kind, and it bothers me.

Imagine that: being horrified because Ron Paul actually stuck by his principles while his son sold himself out.

I have always thought Trump is amenable to nontraditional thinking, and his personality and work ethic make him fertile soil for liberty thinking.

You mean extreme narcissism, delusions of grandeur, and being willing and able to take advantage of every government program possible make you think a person is an open-minded person who can be influenced for liberty?

Gonna have to disagree there.

We have to stay on message and not keep making this about personalities.

Yes, by all means, lets ignore what people are actually like for the fantasy we created that will justify us voting for them.

Let's keep encouraging our senators to vote for a liberty agenda. If never had an opportunity before, we sure have one now. We need to move away from all the bickering and insist Congress do it right this time.

Not a bad idea. Not a hopeful one, but still do try.

The funny thing is that all the establishment people who did not support Trump are falling all over themselves currying favor. Good luck with that.

They've having astounding luck. So I don't understand why you're being dismissive.

Well, no. Not luck. It was obvious Trump was an establishment man to anyone who paid attention to reality. So it isn't luck. It wa sinevitable.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't see how treating the Trump administration as an enemy will help advance liberty.

I don't see how you don't see how actively supporting one's own enemies is counterproductive.

 

[UWDude]

He isn't the guy we have. He is the guy the neocons have. That much should be obvious.

And what possibility of conversion have you seen in all of Trump's history of being a Leftist?

While you're right, maybe we have ridden a few too hard, the reason that happened was because of the reality of the many though.

There isn't even a dilution of freedom with Trump. There was that with Rand, but not with Trump. Trump is an authoritarian. He wants power. He wants prestige. He wants to use, abuse, and lose people as it benefits him to do so. And people coming in here claiming that his authoritarian, abusive, destructive ideas are somehow going to make us free need to be put on notice. This is not the place to support the State.

The worst though are those who have long been here and are betraying everything they know about liberty in order to support Trump. They should know better. But either they do not or they do not care. That garbage needs to be exposed for what it is: anti-liberty; anti-humanity; anti-freedom. They deserve to be exposed to criticism and disdain for supporting things obviously opposed to the ideas of liberty and freedom.

I read you were hardcore pushing the Trump is a Hillary plant conspiracy theory in the Rand Paul sub-forum.
And Rand Paul just voted for Mitch McConnell for senate majority leader.
Mitch McConnell is a statist that voted for the Iraq war.
Therefore, by your logic, Rand Paul is a neocon.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I don't see how treating the Trump administration as an enemy will help advance liberty.

I, for one, do not treat the Trump admin as an enemy, but with guarded optimism. There are a few policies like the potential repeal of O-Care and the repeal of the Johnson Amendment that I am actually excited about. Out in the 'real world' and on FB, only about 4% of Trump supporters are asshole enough to count as enemies. It's only here on RPF's that some 85% of Trump supporters have gone category 5 assholecaine.

I can see how Rand Paul could potentially influence the Trump administration and maybe make something positive happen, such as DownsizeDC.org's "One Subject at a Time Act" (OSTA)

Just imagine if Trump got behind the “Write the Laws Act” (WTLA)...

It may be a long shot, but it is worth fighting for in my opinion... or you could circle the wagons with Gary Johnson and Bill Weld and figure out a better way to advance liberty.

Johnson/Weld is nearly as anti liberty as Trump, and may be (probably is) even more anticonstitutional than him.

 

[nikcers]

I read you were hardcore pushing the Trump is a Hillary plant conspiracy theory in the Rand Paul sub-forum.
And Rand Paul just voted for Mitch McConnell for senate majority leader.
Mitch McConnell is a statist that voted for the Iraq war.
Therefore, by your logic, Rand Paul is a neocon.

we're all neocons now, trump is Ron Paul on steroids.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I read you were hardcore pushing the Trump is a Hillary plant conspiracy theory in the Rand Paul sub-forum.
And Rand Paul just voted for Mitch McConnell for senate majority leader.
Mitch McConnell is a statist that voted for the Iraq war.
Therefore, by your logic, Rand Paul is a neocon.

Stop. Telling. People. What. They. Are. And. Are. Not. Allowed. To. Think.

 

[nikcers]

Thank you for correcting the record.

 

[UWDude]

Stop. Telling. People. What. They. Are. And. Are. Not. Allowed. To. Think.

Wow. Coming from you. Just wow.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Wow. Coming from you. Just wow.

Damn skippy. Now go on and start making crap up about me like you do so well...

 

[TheCount]

I care about actions, not words. I am hoping that his actions will have some good results mixed in with what I assume will be some poor results.

If you don't care about words and don't pay attention to what he says, how do you know what he said about the Fed?

Both his actions and his words indicate an entire life focused on deficit spending and leveraging to his benefit and the detriment of others. Why would that change now? He has stated his intent to fiercely deficit spend on a wide variety of programs. How, exactly, do you think that he will be able to implement any of his policies if he is not supportive of a permissive Federal Reserve?

 

[Dangergirl]

He isn't the guy we have. He is the guy the neocons have. That much should be obvious.

And what possibility of conversion have you seen in all of Trump's history of being a Leftist?

While you're right, maybe we have ridden a few too hard, the reason that happened was because of the reality of the many though.

There isn't even a dilution of freedom with Trump. There was that with Rand, but not with Trump. Trump is an authoritarian. He wants power. He wants prestige. He wants to use, abuse, and lose people as it benefits him to do so. And people coming in here claiming that his authoritarian, abusive, destructive ideas are somehow going to make us free need to be put on notice. This is not the place to support the State.

The worst though are those who have long been here and are betraying everything they know about liberty in order to support Trump. They should know better. But either they do not or they do not care. That garbage needs to be exposed for what it is: anti-liberty; anti-humanity; anti-freedom. They deserve to be exposed to criticism and disdain for supporting things obviously opposed to the ideas of liberty and freedom.

Thanks for the diplomatic reply. I appreciate it.

I'll start by clarifying that I meant Trump's the guy we have as the President, not the Liberty movement :d though I can't say for sure he's the neocon candidate. He's against a lot of things they promote. I've said before, he hasn't defined himself as a politician yet which is why it's a great time for Liberty candidates and scholars to influence him and also correctly influence those who voted for him, that are not necessarily on this forum, so they can continue to refine their decisions. This is not the time for us to be "isolationists" and that's exactly what I see happening from some of the members here.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

If you don't care about words and don't pay attention to what he says, how do you know what he said about the Fed?

Both his actions and his words indicate an entire life focused on deficit spending and leveraging to his benefit and the detriment of others. Why would that change now? He has stated his intent to fiercely deficit spend on a wide variety of programs. How, exactly, do you think that he will be able to implement any of his policies if he is not supportive of a permissive Federal Reserve?

It's Trump-money. He gonna get it from his stash.

 

[ChaosControl]

Trump isnt now and has never been a liberty candidate in any way whatsoever. He just appeals to alt right types or people ignorant enough to believe is immigration and trade b.s. and think it will help them get jobs when in reality he is just another puppet. He wanted the title and now will do whatever his neocon advisors tell him to do. But alas this was obvious to anyone who actually thought it through even a little bit.

 

[Athan]

Thank you for correcting the record.

 

[otherone]

Why do people keep bringing up the liberty movement? Absolutely none of the discussion going on here has anything to do with liberty. You have people pointing out how Trump is no different from those that came before him. You have Trump's fanatics saying it is all part of a master plan of deception. The Trumphumpers get triggered by the accusations, and everyone else just gets fed up with their eruptions afterward. Trump has proposed nothing that is friendly to liberty, he didn't run on a platform to increase liberty, he doesn't give a $#@! about liberty.

What has become apparent is that the Trumpers have joined a cult of personality, and that their former support of RP was a cult of personality. Those in the actual Liberty Movement, while they may have affection for RP, are followers of his ideology, not the man. As Americans, and Liberty-lovers, we SHOULD be critical of DJT. If Ron or Rand were elected POTUS, we STILL would be critical of their actions, if those actions were counter-Liberty. This is not being "purist", it's being consistent.