The Constitutional Convention Did Not Exceed Its Power

Maybe I'm biased since I like Jefferson as a Founder. But compared to anything that was done by Jackson, Lincoln, or the Progressive Presidents... yeah...

Millions of dollars wasted isn't "Small" but it is comparatively so.


Jefferson was a great man and a shitty president. In fact, Jefferson should be the poster boy for murderously limited governance. A good man, a great man, became president and failed to live by his own principles. I can understand why he did what he did. Had I been president at that time I, too, would have been sore tempted to do the same and I consider myself to be highly principled in the ways relevant.

If the great men cannot control their impulses to world building, how could we expect anything better from the likes of Bammy, Bush, Clinton, and so on?

Seriously, someone should write about this because it is sort of important to the topic.
 
The process only required YEA votes from nine-states, not all thirteen.

Article X [Committee of States]: "The Committee of the States, or any nine of them, shall be authorized to execute, in the recess of Congress, such of the powers of Congress as the United States in Congress assembled, by the consent of the nine States, ..."
 
The process only required YEA votes from nine-states, not all thirteen.

Article X [Committee of States]: "The Committee of the States, or any nine of them, shall be authorized to execute, in the recess of Congress, such of the powers of Congress as the United States in Congress assembled, by the consent of the nine States, ..."


"Committee of the States":

A Committee of the States was an arm of the United States government, under the Articles of Confederation. The Committee consisted of one member from each state, and carried out the functions of government while the Congress of the Confederation was in recess.[1]
...
The Council was modeled after the various administrative committees set up during the American Revolutionary War. Instead the Second Continental Congress changed it to A Committee of the States with limited management powers only when Congress was not in session.[2]

The Committee was set up in 1784 on the proposal of Thomas Jefferson, then a congressman from Virginia. The Committee "quarrelled very soon, split into two parties, [and] abandoned their post."[3] This was the only time that the Committee was formed and general had a lack of a quorum and did not carry out their administrative tasks.[2]


The part below from the AoC is what's relevant to the thread's subject matter, and the parts in bold never took place:

XIII.

Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.
...
 
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That does not really apply though they were not seeking to alter, that is to amend it; as ultimately they decided it best to repeal it, favoring the idea of a constitutional republic (if states opted not to take part in the revisionary process, then the only reasonable end result is for those non-participating states to lose their voice thereafter). There is nothing bad at all about our U.S. Constitution. It is based upon solid maxims that emanated from the Age of Enlightenment. What is bad is that the entire resulting philosophy is being—and has been—ignored, in large part, over the course of the last century.

Yet the point stands: A supermajority of states were in favor of dissolving the confederacy, which is very reasonable in either case.

“..., or any nine of them,” “shall be authorized to execute, … the powers of Congress as the United States in Congress assembled, by the consent of the nine States, ...”
 
You’re reading into Article X of the AoC something totally non existent, and blowing off what Article XIII of the AoC clearly states that contradicts your assertions. You’re also blowing of the fact the "States" never voted on ratification of the US Constitution: conventions (or bodies) set up by proponents of the Constitution are what voted on its adoption.

The adoption of the US Constitution was a significant concentration of power over what existed. That you consider it a reflection of “enlightenment” doesn’t distinguish you from most supporters of a stronger federal government, past and present.
 
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The Constitution was an illegal, anti-libertarian coup. The Federalists were scumbags. The article is wrong-headed to defend it and them.

Any questions?
 
"The Constitutional Convention Did Not Exceed Its Power"

I read the article. It's just legal arguing; there's word games that can be made with the documents then existing that could support either side.

Here's the basic fact:

The Constitutional Convention had no more Powers, no more Rights, than the sum of the rights of the individuals present and those principles who duly assigned them as their agents.

None of them were my agent, thus have no right to sign a document on my behalf.

Care to rebut? Care to prove why they have powers over me, even though I haven't consented?
 
The constitution is a trust and anyone with a oath to it is a trustee, they act on behalf of "The People" which are the signers and their posterity. Their is no "common consent" to grant authority to govern anyone or to conjure up laws that in reality only apply to the trustee's. Especially in a world were people are born equal.
 
The constitution is a trust and anyone with a oath to it is a trustee, they act on behalf of "The People" which are the signers and their posterity. Their is no "common consent" to grant authority to govern anyone or to conjure up laws that in reality only apply to the trustee's. Especially in a world were people are born equal.

Way beyond most of the intellect here. Many still thing the income tax applies to them in the private sector.
 
Many still thing the income tax applies to them in the private sector.

And it does. The argument that it applies only to income derived from activity involving a "federal privilege" has no basis in law and has been consistently rejected by the courts.
 
And it does. The argument that it applies only to income derived from activity involving a "federal privilege" has no basis in law and has been consistently rejected by the courts.

I agree - but let's not pretend that this is some logically derived position based on natural rights and justice.

You have an obligation to pay because they have guns, will use guns, and have popular support in using them against people who refuse to pay.
 
I agree - but let's not pretend that this is some logically derived position based on natural rights and justice.

You have an obligation to pay because they have guns, will use guns, and have popular support in using them against people who refuse to pay.

That's true. But all laws, not just tax laws, are backed up by force or the threat of force.
 
And it does. The argument that it applies only to income derived from activity involving a "federal privilege" has no basis in law and has been consistently rejected by the courts.

No, just the opposite.

The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income [earnings] a s s u c h . I t i s a n e x c i s e t a x w i t h r e s p e c t to certain activities and privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of tax." F. Morse Hubbard, Treasury Department legislative draftsman. House Congressional Record, March 27, 1943, page 2 580;
 
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No, just the opposite.

The income tax is, therefore, not a tax on income [earnings] a s s u c h . I t i s a n e x c i s e t a x w i t h r e s p e c t to certain activities and privileges which is measured by reference to the income which they produce. The income is not the subject of the tax: it is the basis for determining the amount of tax." F. Morse Hubbard, Treasury Department legislative draftsman. House Congressional Record, March 27, 1943, page 2 580;

Hubbard was a former mid-level drafting attorney who didn't know much about the theoretical aspects of the income tax. For a fuller discussion of why he was so mistaken, please see http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#privileges

While privileges can serve as the basis for federal excise taxes, it isn't necessary for there to be a privilege before they apply. For example, the Supreme Court has long held that income earned from illegal activities such as embezzlement and extortion is taxable, yet it's obvious that such activities are not privileged in any way.

The courts have consistently rejected taxpayers' claims that their private-sector earnings aren't taxable because there's no "privilege" involved. The argument is so frivolous that many who have made it have been fined for wasting the courts' time with such drivel.

Turning first to their basic contention, indeed the one on which all the others rest, that the relation of domestic employment does not come within Art. 1, Section 8, and is therefore immune from the imposition of federal taxes and burdens, we find ourselves in no doubt that appellants are neither historically nor etymologically correct in their claim in substance that excises are limited to taxes laid on the manufacture, sale or consumption of commodities within the country, upon licenses to pursue certain occupation and upon corporate privileges only. It is true that taxes of the kind referred to are excise taxes but it is also true, as was held in Steward Machine Co. v. Davis, that the excises which Congress has power to impose are not limited to vocations or activities which may be prohibited altogether or to those which are the outcome of a franchise, but extend to vocations or activities pursued as of common right. The term ‘excise’ is and was before and at the time of the adoption of the Constitution a term of very wide meaning. Abney v. Campbell, 206 F.2d 836, 841 (5th Cir. 1953), cert. den. 346 U.S. 924 (1954).

[Hamzik] contends only that he does not have a tax liability and subsequent deficiency because all federal income taxes are ‘indirect taxes’ and the Commissioner has not produced the statutes defining the ‘revenue taxable activity’ that would make Hamzik subject to or liable for any tax under Title 26. The tax court properly rejected Hamzik’s arguments as frivolous. Hamzik v. Commissioner, 25 Fed. Appx. 911, KTC 2001-589 (9th Cir. 2001), (affirming the decision of the Tax Court and imposing sanctions of $250 for bringing a frivolous appeal).

Furthermore, Olson’s attempt to escape tax by deducting his wages as ‘cost of labor’ and by claiming that he had obtained no privilege from a governmental agency illustrate the frivolous nature of his position. This court has repeatedly rejected the argument that wages are not income as frivolous, [citations omitted] and has also rejected the idea that a person is liable for tax only if he benefits from a governmental privilege. Olson v. United States, 760 F.2d 1003, 1005 (9th Cir. 1985).

All individuals, freeborn and nonfreeborn, natural and unnatural alike, must pay federal income tax on their wages, regardless of whether they have requested, obtained or exercised any privilege from the federal government. United States v. Sloan, 939 F.2d 499, 501 (7th Cir. 1991), cert. den. 112 S.Ct. 940 (1992).

Plaintiff appears to argue that according to the Sixteenth Amendment, federal income tax is not a direct tax on wages or salaries of individuals, but that it is an excise tax on the privilege of engaging in some privileged or regulated activity. Therefore, according to plaintiff, this ‘indirect excise tax’ can only be imposed on the income of corporations and the dividend income of stockholders. Despite plaintiff’s many case citations allegedly supporting his argument, the Sixteenth Amendment, valid as described above, clearly authorizes Congress to levy a direct income tax upon individuals who are United States citizens. In addition, as described above, plaintiff’s wages and gambling earnings are clearly within the I.R.C.’s definition of ‘income,’ and are properly subject to taxation. Betz v. United States, 40 Fed.Cl. 286, 294-296 (1998)

The IRS is not required to show that the Debtor’s income is derived from a ‘revenue taxable activity.’” In re: Michael Fleming, 86 AFTR2d ¶2000-5138; No. 97-6342-8G3 (U.S.Bank.Ct. M.D.Fl. 8/9/2000).

[Peth] argues that he is not a “person liable” to pay taxes under 26 U.S.C. § 6001. The argument is this: the tax imposed by Title 26, according to plaintiff, is “not unapportioned direct tax,” because any such tax ‘would be in conflict with the apportionment restriction of direct taxes contained in [Article I of the Constitution].’ Moreover, he finds that there are no apportioned taxes imposed by Title 26. Thus, any tax under Title 26 must be an indirect tax, that is, a tax upon some right, privilege, or corporate franchise. Plaintiff says he is not a privileged person, nor has he taken any corporate franchise. Therefore, so the argument goes, Title 26 has no application to him. The argument has no merit. Peth v. Breitzmann, 611 F. Supp. 50, 53 (E.D.Wis. 1985), 1985 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 21509, 85-1 U.S.T.C. ¶9321, 55 AFTR2d 1280 (complaints dismissed and sanctions imposed for filing frivolous actions “brought in bad faith”).

[P]etitioner argues that the income tax is an excise tax and that petitioner did not engage in any taxable excise activities during 1996, 1997, and 1998. The contentions made by petitioner in his petition and on brief are appropriately termed ‘tax protester rhetoric and legalistic gibberish’, and we shall not dignify such arguments with any further discussion. Heisey v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2001-41 (tax deficiencies affirmed, along with penalties for failure to file and failure to pay estimated taxes, and an additional penalty of $2,000 was imposed for filing a frivolous petition), aff’d 2003 TNT 66-47, No. 02-72675 (9th Cir. 3/20/2003), ($1,500 penalty imposed for filing a frivolous appeal).

Petitioner argues that the income tax is an excise tax and that he did not engage in excise taxable activities in 1996. [Note 3: “Petitioner testified: ‘The income tax is an excise tax. Congress, who sets the laws, even says so in the Congressional Record. The income tax is therefore not a tax on income.’”] We shall not painstakingly address petitioner’s assertions ‘with somber reasoning and copious citation of precedent; to do so might suggest that these arguments have some colorable merit.’ [Citation omitted.] Accordingly, we sustain respondent’s deficiency determination. Sawukaytis v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo. 2002-156 (sanctions of $12,500 imposed), aff’d 102 F.App’x 29, 2004-1 USTC ¶50,283, KTC 2004-186, Docket No. 02-2431 (6th Cir. 6/16/2004), (additional sanctions of $4,000 imposed for filing a frivolous appeal; the original tax in controversy was $13,976, plus a failure to file penalty of $726, so the total of the sanctions imposed by the Tax Court and Circuit Court exceeded the original amount in controversy), rehearing den. 8/6/2004, cert. den. No. 04-587 (12/6/2004).

In Pabon v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo 1994-476, the petitioner alleged, among other things, that he “is not an employee of the Federal or state governments, is not engaged in a revenue taxable activity of alcohol, tobacco or firearms and therefore not subject to any exise [sic] tax....” The court concluded that the petition “is nothing but tax protester rhetoric and legalistic gibberish....” Pabon v. Commissioner, T.C. Memo 1994-476.

In sum, no one in the history of the country has ever avoided federal income tax by arguing that income from private-sector, non-privileged activity isn't subject to the income tax. That is not and never has been the law.
 
Hubbard was a former mid-level drafting attorney who didn't know much about the theoretical aspects of the income tax. For a fuller discussion of why he was so mistaken, please see http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html#privileges

While privileges can serve as the basis for federal excise taxes, it isn't necessary for there to be a privilege before they apply. For example, the Supreme Court has long held that income earned from illegal activities such as embezzlement and extortion is taxable, yet it's obvious that such activities are not privileged in any way.

The courts have consistently rejected taxpayers' claims that their private-sector earnings aren't taxable because there's no "privilege" involved. The argument is so frivolous that many who have made it have been fined for wasting the courts' time with such drivel.



In sum, no one in the history of the country has ever avoided federal income tax by arguing that income from private-sector, non-privileged activity isn't subject to the income tax. That is not and never has been the law.

It is activity also. If the income tax was all encompassing, why can't the IRS tax a man in China being paid in FRNs?

The terms "excise tax" and "privilege tax" are synonymous. The two are often used interchangeably." American Airways v . Wall ace 57 F.2d 877, 880 (Dist. Ct., M.D . Ten n ., 1937); .. .the requirement to pay such [excise] taxes involves the exercise of privilege." United States Supreme Court, Flint vs. Stone Tracy Co. 220 U.S . 107 (1911)
 
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It is activity also. If the income tax was all encompassing, why can't the IRS tax a man in China being paid in FRNs?

The activity is the receipt of income. Being paid in FRN's is irrelevant. If someone is paid in beer, cigarettes, wine, automobiles, or any other kind of property, it's still income. The reason a Chinese working in China isn't taxed is that Section 872 of the Internal Revenue Code excludes his pay from gross income.

The terms "excise tax" and "privilege tax" are synonymous. The two are often used interchangeably." American Airways v . Wall ace 57 F.2d 877, 880 (Dist. Ct., M.D . Ten n ., 1937); .. .the requirement to pay such [excise] taxes involves the exercise of privilege." United States Supreme Court, Flint vs. Stone Tracy Co. 220 U.S . 107 (1911)

It looks as though you have cut and pasted from some crackpot's website, very likely Lost Horizons or someone who copied from that site. The quote "the requirement to pay such [excise] taxes involves the exercise of privilege." is not from the Flint decision. The actual quote is as follows:

The tax under consideration, as we have construed the statute, may be described as an excise upon the particular privilege of doing business in a corporate capacity, i. e., with the advantages which arise from corporate or quasi corporate organization; or, when applied to insurance companies, for doing the business of such companies. As was said in the Thomas Case, 192 U. S. supra, the requirement to pay such taxes involves the exercise of privileges, and the element of absolute and unavoidable demand is lacking. If business is not done in the manner described in the statute, no tax is payable. (emphasis added)

You can read the decision here: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=220&invol=107 The correct quote is on pages 151-152.

The tax in Flint was not an income tax. It was a tax that applied only to corporations, and it was an excise on the privilege of doing business in a corporate capacity. The Court was saying that such taxes (i.e., those imposed in connection with corporate privileges) involve privilege. The quote was deliberately altered by the scammer who runs Lost Horizons to make it seem as if the Supreme Court was saying that all excise taxes involve privilege, which they clearly don't (e.g., the gift tax is an excise, but there's obviously no privilege involved in making a gift).

If you really believe the income tax has to involve a privilege, what privilege is involved in extortion or embezzlement, the income from which is taxable? And if the tax involves an activity, what activity other than the receipt of income is necessary to trigger the tax?
 
Come on over to "crackpot" sites and post your theories. LOL. This site many consider crackpot too.

What “Income ” Means , And Why United States Supreme Court, Butcher's Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1883); ”Included in the right of personal liberty and the right of private propety- partaking of the nature of each- is the right to make contracts for the acquisition of property. Chief among such contracts is that of personal employment, by which labor and other services are exchanged for money or other forms of property” United States Supreme Court, Coppage v. Kansas, 2 36 U.S . 1 (1915); ...the essence of all of which is underscored here: 'Direct taxes bear immediately upon persons, up on the possession and enjoyments of rights; in direct taxes are levied upon the happening of an event or an exchange.' United States Supreme Court, Knowlton v. Moor e, 1 78 U.S . 41 (1900 ), quoting the long-standing official French definitions as helpfully illustrative of the distinctions drawn in the United States Constitution .
 
Come on over to "crackpot" sites and post your theories. LOL. This site many consider crackpot too.

What “Income ” Means , And Why United States Supreme Court, Butcher's Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1883); ”Included in the right of personal liberty and the right of private propety- partaking of the nature of each- is the right to make contracts for the acquisition of property. Chief among such contracts is that of personal employment, by which labor and other services are exchanged for money or other forms of property”. United States Supreme Court, Coppage v. Kansas, 2 36 U.S . 1 (1915); ...the essence of all of which is underscored here: 'Direct taxes bear immediately upon persons, up on the possession and enjoyments of rights; in direct taxes are levied upon the happening of an event or an exchange.' United States Supreme Court, Knowlton v. Moor e, 1 78 U.S . 41 (1900 ), quoting the long-standing official French definitions as helpfully illustrative of the distinctions drawn in the United States Constitution

You really should stop cutting and pasting from crackpots. I've seen 'em all, and they're all bogus. The Butcher's Union quote was from a concurring opinion of a single Justice, not from the majority opinion. Moreover, the case was an antitrust case that didn't involve taxes at all. Coppage also didn't involve taxes; it was a case that struck down a state law that banned yellow-dog contracts. In addition. it's no longer good law. Although Knowlton's dictum is correctly quoted, it's not an accurate statement of the law of direct taxes. As most recently affirmed in the decision upholding the Individual Mandate in Obamacare, the only direct taxes under the Constitution are capitations and property taxes. Taxes on the exercise of economic rights re subject to indirect taxes:

The meaning of the phrase "direct taxes" and the historical background of the constitutional requirement for their apportionment have been so often and exhaustively considered by this Court, Hylton v. United States, 3 Dall. 171; Pollock v. Farmers Loan & Trust Company, 157 U.S. 429, 158 U.S. 601; Knowlton v. Moore, 178 U.S. 41; Nicol v. Ames, 173 U.S. 509, 515, that no useful purpose would be served by renewing the discussion here. Whatever may be the precise line which sets off direct taxes from others, we need not now determine. While taxes levied upon or collected from persons because of their general ownership of property may be taken to be direct, Pollock v. Farmers Loan & Trust Company, 157 U.S. 429, 158 U.S. 601, this Court has consistently held, almost from the foundation of the government, that a tax imposed upon a particular use of property or the exercise of a single power over property incidental to ownership, is an excise which need not be apportioned, and it is enough for present purposes that this tax [the gift tax] is of the latter class.
Bromley v. McCaughn, 280 U.S. 124, 136 (1929) (emphasis added)
 
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