"The Constitution was intended to expand power of the government"

This a pro-Constitution website. Trolls like you have been coming over here for years causing trouble. I defend the US Constitution, as does Ron Paul, and the Founding Fathers.

I've been here longer than you, and I've contributed to many a campaign. How do you contribute except for yapping? Please do tell how I'm a troll, and how I'm "causing trouble?" Please quote me or shut the fuck up.

And for the record, the Constitution is not perfection on paper, there are plenty of flaws in it that could and should be amended (some of the flaws being in the amendments themselves)...for you to blindly defend it and do so in such an obnoxious manner is blatantly dumb. Unless, of course, you can't handle debate on your sacred cow....
 
I agree with Galileo Galilei. Looks like a bunch of RINO's inflitrated Ron Paul Forums. I feel like I'm back at the Quatloos site debating the income tax.

Quatloos is a site run by an asshole tax attorney named Jay Adkisson. He debates 24/7 on his message board forums defending the IRS.
 
Thanks AF. Currently, a lawsuit has been filed in the courts of New Mexico indicating that the two candidates for governor in New Mexico, Susana Martinez (R) and Diane Denish (D), are alleged felons for embezzlement because they were pretending to serve because they did not purchase the required bond.

Keep us posted on that, I'd be really curious to see what happens.

Unfortunately it is a varsity level excellent point well beyond the understanding of most citizens.

90 percent of what's discussed here is well beyond the understanding of most citizens.
 
I've been here longer than you, and I've contributed to many a campaign. How do you contribute except for yapping? Please do tell how I'm a troll, and how I'm "causing trouble?" Please quote me or shut the fuck up.

And for the record, the Constitution is not perfection on paper, there are plenty of flaws in it that could and should be amended (some of the flaws being in the amendments themselves)...for you to blindly defend it and do so in such an obnoxious manner is blatantly dumb. Unless, of course, you can't handle debate on your sacred cow....

That's another lame anti-Constitutional argument used by liberals; the Constitution isn't perfect, so let's just ignore it or pretend it is too complicated to understand.

"No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken."
 
That's another lame anti-Constitutional argument used by liberals; the Constitution isn't perfect, so let's just ignore it or pretend it is too complicated to understand.

I have no respect for your ignorant diatribes on the subject of taxation. Put up (a citation or evidence) or shut up.

This is the way it is and what SCOTUS has always held. You can bitch about it, whine about it, or whatever else you want to do but it is not going to change the fact this is how shit has been upheld by SCOTUS under the Constitution.

February 24, 1795.

What is the distinction between direct and indirect taxes? It is a matter of regret that terms so uncertain and vague in so important a point are to be found in the Constitution. We shall seek in vain for any antecedent settled legal meaning to the respective terms—there is none.

We shall be as much at a loss to find any disposition of either which can satisfactorily determine the point.

Shall we call an indirect tax, a tax which is ultimately paid by a person, different from the one who pays it in the first instance?

Truly speaking, there is no such tax—those on imported articles best claim the character. But in many instances the merchant cannot transfer the tax to the buyer; in numerous cases it falls on himself, partly or wholly. Besides, if the same article which is imported by a merchant for sale, is imported by a merchant for his own use, or by a lawyer, a physician, or mechanic, for his own use, there can be no question about the transfer of the tax. It remains upon him who pays it.

According to that rule, then, the same tax may be both a direct and indirect tax, which is an absurdity. To urge that a man may either buy an article already imported, or import it himself, amounts to nothing; sometimes he could not have that option.

But the option of an individual cannot alter the nature of a thing. In like manner he might avoid the tax on carriages by hiring occasionally instead of buying.

The subject of taxation, not the contingent optional conduct of individuals, must be the criterion of direct or indirect taxation. Shall it be said that an indirect tax is that of which a man is not conscious when he pays? Neither is there any such tax. The ignorant may not see the tax in the enhanced price of the commodity—but the man of reflection knows it is there. Besides, when any but a merchant pays, as in the case of the lawyer, etc., who imports for himself, he cannot but be conscious that it falls upon himself.

By this rule, also, then a tax would be both direct and indirect—and it will be equally impracticable to find any other precise or satisfactory criterion.

In such a case no construction ought to prevail calculated to defeat the express and necessary authority of the government.

It would be contrary to reason, and to every rule of sound construction, to adopt a principle for regulating the exercise of a clear constitutional power which would defeat the exercise of the power.

It cannot be contested that a duty on carriages specifically is as much within the authority of the government as a duty on lands or buildings.

Now, if a duty on carriages is to be considered as a direct tax, to be apportioned according to the rates of representation, very absurd consequences must ensue.

‘T is possible that a particular State may have no carriages of the description intended to be taxed, or a very small number.

But each State would have to pay a proportion of the sum to be laid, according to its relative numbers; yet, while the State would have to pay a quota, it might have no carriages upon which its quota could be assessed, or so few, as to render it ruinous to the owners to pay the tax. To consider then a duty on carriages as a direct tax, may be to defeat the power of laying such a duty. This is a consequence which ought not to ensue from construction.

Further: If the tax on carriages be a direct tax, that on ships according to their tonnage must be so likewise. Here is not a consumable article. Here the tax is paid by the owner of the thing taxed, from time to time, as would be the tax on carriages.

If it be said that the tax is indirect because it is alternately paid by the freighter of the vessel, the answer is, that sometimes the owner is himself the freighter, and at other times the tonnage accrues when there is no freight, and is a dead charge on the owner of the vessel.

Moreover, a tax on a hackney or stage-coach or other carriage, or on a dray or cart employed in transporting commodities for hire, would be as much a charge on the freight as a tax upon vessels; so that, if the latter be an indirect tax, the former cannot be a direct tax.

And it would be too great a refinement for a rule of practice in government to say, that a tax on a hackney or stage-coach, and upon a dray or cart, is an indirect one, and yet a tax upon a coach or wagon ordinarily used for the purposes of its owner, is a direct one.

The only known source of the distinction between direct and indirect taxes is in the doctrine of the French Economists—Locke and other speculative writers—who affirm that all taxes fall ultimately upon land, and are paid out of its produce, whether laid immediately upon itself, or upon any other thing. Hence, taxes upon lands are in that system called direct taxes; those on all other articles indirect taxes.

According to this, land taxes only would be direct taxes, but it is apparent that something more was intended by the Constitution. In one case, a capitation is spoken of as a direct tax.

But how is the meaning of the Constitution to be determined? It has been affirmed, and so it will be found, that there is no general principle which can indicate the boundary between the two. That boundary, then, must be fixed by a species of arbitration, and ought to be such as will involve neither absurdity nor inconvenience.

The following are presumed to be the only direct taxes.

Capitation or poll taxes.

Taxes on lands and buildings.

General assessments, whether on the whole property of individuals, or on their whole real or personal estate; all else must of necessity be considered as indirect taxes.


To apply a rule of apportionment according to numbers to taxes of the above description, has some rationale in it; but to extend an apportionment of that kind to other cases, would, in many instances, produce, as has been seen, preposterous consequences, and would greatly embarrass the operations of the government. Nothing could be more capricious or outré, than the application of quotas in such cases.

The Constitution gives power to Congress to lay and collect the taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, requiring that all duties, imposts, and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.

Here duties, imposts, and excises appear to be contradistinguished from taxes, and while the latter is left to apportionment, the former are enjoined to be uniform.

But, unfortunately, there is equally here a want of criterion to distinguish duties, imposts, and excises from taxes.

If the meaning of the word excise is to be sought in the British statutes, it will be found to include the duty on carriages, which is there considered as an excise, and then must necessarily be uniform and not liable to apportionment; consequently not a direct tax.

An argument results from this, though not perhaps a conclusive one: yet where so important a distinction in the Constitution is to be realized, it is fair to seek the meaning of terms in the statutory language of that country from which our jurisprudence is derived.

[1]Hamilton, when Secretary of the Treasury, recommended a tax on pleasure carriages and Madison opposed it in the House on the ground that it was a direct tax, and therefore unconstitutional. The bill laying the tax became a law, and certain persons in Virginia refused to pay the tax, taking Madison’s position as to its unconstitutionality. The case came before the Supreme Court, and Hamilton appeared for the government with the Attorney-General of the United States. One of the newspapers said next day (Feb. 25th): “Yesterday, in the Supreme Court of the United States, Mr. Hamilton, late Secretary of the Treasury, made a most eloquent speech in support of the constitutionality of the carriage tax. He spoke for three hours. and the whole of his argument was clear, impressive, and classical. The audience, which was very numerous, and among whom were many foreigners of distinction and many of the Members of Congress, testified the effect produced by the talents of this great orator and statesman.”

All that now remains of the argument is the fragment of a brief given above. The case was Hylton vs. the United States, and is reported 1 Dallas, 171. The court sustained Hamilton’s view, and held unanimously that the tax was not direct and therefore constitutional.

Since SCOTUS has never recognized your claim the Constitution prevents income tax you are 100% full of shit on the subject of taxation.
 
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that means any aspect of life or humanity in and of itself such as penis or breast size is taxable and "must of necessity" be an indirect tax which can be progressive based on size so long as it is uniformly applied among the several states
 
I have no respect for your ignorant diatribes on the subject of taxation. Put up (a citation or evidence) or shut up.

This is the way it is and what SCOTUS has always been held. You can bitch about it, whine about it, or whatever else you want to do but it is not going to change the fact this is how shit has been upheld by SCOTUS under the Constitution.



Since SCOTUS has never recognized your claim the Constitution prevents income tax you are 100% full of shit on the subject of taxation.

The 16th amendment was passed because the Supreme Court agreed that the plain language of the Constitution barred income taxes. An income tax is obviously a direct tax. What you posted is no such finding by the Supreme Court, it is just a bunch of rambling crap. And Hamilton was not on the Supreme Court. And he wanted a tax on carriages, which is a far cry from an income tax.

Please give it a rest, today is Constitution day, you are wearing thin on a lot of people here.
 
The 16th amendment was passed because the Supreme Court agreed that the plain language of the Constitution barred income taxes. An income tax is obviously a direct tax. What you posted is no such finding by the Supreme Court, it is just a bunch of rambling crap. And Hamilton was not on the Supreme Court. And he wanted a tax on carriages, which is a far cry from an income tax.

Please give it a rest, today is Constitution day, you are wearing thin on a lot of people here.


Your ignorance is wearing thin on me if you want to keep it personal. Hamilton's brief is plain as day. How can you be so oblivious to the plain english contained in the above brief and the entire ruling history of SCOTUS on taxation?

The Pollock ruling has been cited several times and it decided exactly what I mentioned earlier. The source of income. Not income tax.

This is what the Pollock ruling decided and it's right up at the top of the ruling.

The bill charged that the provisions in respect of said alleged income tax incorporated in the act of Congress were unconstitutional, null, and void, in that the tax was a direct tax in respect of the real estate held and owned by the company in its own right and in its fiduciary capacity as aforesaid by being imposed upon the rents, issues, and profits of said real estate, and was likewise a direct tax in respect of its personal property and the personal property held by it for others for whom it acted in its fiduciary capacity as aforesaid, which direct taxes were not in and by said act apportioned among the several States as required by section 2 of article I of the Constitution, and that, if the income tax so incorporated in the act of Congress aforesaid were held not to be a direct tax, nevertheless its provisions were unconstitutional, null and void in that they were not uniform throughout the United States as required in and by section of article I of the Constitution of the United States, upon many grounds and in many particulars specifically set forth.

The bill further charged that the income tax provisions of the act were likewise unconstitutional in that they imposed a tax on incomes not taxable under the Constitution and likewise income derived from the stocks and bonds of the States of the United States and counties and municipalities therein, [p433] which stocks and bonds are among the means and instrumentalities employed for carrying on their respective governments, and are not proper subjects of the taxing power of Congress, and which States and their counties and municipalities are independent of the general government of the United States, and the respective stocks and bonds of which are, together with the power of the States to borrow in any form, exempt from Federal taxation.

Full text of the ruling.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0157_0429_ZS.html
 
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What you posted is no such finding by the Supreme Court, it is just a bunch of rambling crap. And Hamilton was not on the Supreme Court.

And let me just address this by itself. Any stupid son of a bitch that can sit behind their keyboard and claim a factual, historical event such has Alexander Hamilton arguing the historical brief posted above before the Supreme Court which happened and practically shut down Washington on that day in history did not happen should be booted for the idiot they are.
 
Your ignorance is wearing thin on me if you want to keep it personal. Hamilton's brief is plain as day. How can you be so oblivious to the plain english contained in the above brief and the entire ruling history of SCOTUS on taxation?

The Pollock ruling has been cited several times and it decided exactly what I mentioned earlier. The source of income. Not income tax.

This is what the Pollock ruling decided and it's right up at the top of the ruling.



Full text of the ruling.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0157_0429_ZS.html

Ron Paul stated in the "Liberty Manifesto" that Hamilton was way out line with the rest of the founding fathers when it came to the Constitution. You have no argument.
 
I think the constitution is a beautiful document, created by realists who by and large were brilliant in undersatnding human nature.

They never said that the constitution would alone save us from encroaching tyranny. They warned us about apathy, that we would have to continue to fight for freedom.

Only ideaslists believe in some magic system, or lack there of that is going to keep everything in check. Those were not the founding fathers. They were cynics of the highest degree, that would not be surprised at what has happened more than 200 years later.
 
And let me just address this by itself. Any stupid son of a bitch that can sit behind their keyboard and claim a factual, historical event such has Alexander Hamilton arguing the historical brief posted above before the Supreme Court which happened and practically shut down Washington on that day in history did not happen should be booted for the idiot they are.

All you are doing is regurgitating the same lame arguments that enemies of the Constitution have brought forward for years, twisting and contorting the text to suit your needs. I oppose the income tax. You seem to come up with "justifications" for it.
 
Ron Paul stated in the "Liberty Manifesto" that Hamilton was way out line with the rest of the founding fathers when it came to the Constitution. You have no argument.

That's correct, and he was specifically referring to Hamilton after the Constitution was ratified.
 
I have no respect for your ignorant diatribes on the subject of taxation. Put up (a citation or evidence) or shut up.

This is the way it is and what SCOTUS has always held. You can bitch about it, whine about it, or whatever else you want to do but it is not going to change the fact this is how shit has been upheld by SCOTUS under the Constitution.



Since SCOTUS has never recognized your claim the Constitution prevents income tax you are 100% full of shit on the subject of taxation.

Have you seen Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo? Even after the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court held that the income tax amendment granted no new taxing powers. That's because the clause on direct taxes was never repealed.

You are talking about taxes on non-people, i.e. corporations.
 
Ron Paul stated in the "Liberty Manifesto" that Hamilton was way out line with the rest of the founding fathers when it came to the Constitution. You have no argument.

If 200+ years of SCOTUS rulings did not back up that 1795 interpretation of direct versus indirect you might have a point. Considering SCOTUS has backed up that interpretation of direct versus indirect you have no point.

If you are going to argue against Hamilton and his Federalist friends who brought about a Constitutional Convention to expand the powers of central government granted under the Articles of Confederation, then why not extend your logic right on out to the very document and claim the Constitution is not legitimate because the Federalist coo was out of line with the founding fathers?
 
If 200+ years of SCOTUS rulings did not back up that 1795 interpretation of direct versus indirect you might have a point. Considering SCOTUS has backed up that interpretation of direct versus indirect you have no point.

If you are going to argue against Hamilton and his Federalist friends who brought about a Constitutional Convention to expand the powers of central government granted under the Articles of Confederation, then why not extend your logic right on out to the very document and claim the Constitution is not legitimate because the Federalist coo was out of line with the founding fathers?

The AoC didn't even have a Supreme Court. So if congress had passed an income tax law, there's no way it would be struck down.
 
All of the Founding Fathers approved of the Constitution once the Bill-of-Rights was ratified and they had seen it in operation for a few years.
 
Have you seen Freedom to Fascism by Aaron Russo? Even after the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court held that the income tax amendment granted no new taxing powers. That's because the clause on direct taxes was never repealed.

You are talking about taxes on non-people, i.e. corporations.

No shit the 16th Amendment granted no new taxing powers because the power to tax has always been delegated. Duh!

The only thing the 16th Amendment did was close the source loophole which only affected the apportionment rule not the powers delegated. If income was derived from land it was no longer to be considered a direct tax subject to apportionment.

However I do not recognize the 16th Amendment because it was not lawfully ratified and as such is null and void.

No I am talking about taxes on people. Go back and re-read the positions the Supreme Court has adopted for the past 200+ years based on a brief I already posted.
 
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