The case for and against Jesse Benton's professional campaign involvement

[heavenlyboy34]

I think we both know the answer to that...

Count me in.

 

[staerker]

Oh they would trot out Tom's involvement with the League of the South back in the day.

Are you agreeing with jmdrake's first statement?

 

[Matt Collins]

I can say from first hand experience, that the RP 2012 campaign in NH made it a point to alienate and discourage any grassroots efforts, even so far as to discourage lawn signs.

yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.

They, the "official" campaign, ignored me when I pleaded with them to pick up "Northern Pass" as a campaign issue and a Mitt Romney campaign bundler's tie to pro-NP interests.

I ran newspaper ads with my own money in NH, pointing all this out.

Those ads ran in northern NH, in areas most affected by Northern Pass and possible eminent domain takings by the state for private utility interests, a violation of the NH state constitution.

Ron Paul won Coos county, and he could have won the state.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

RP could have won NH

Please cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

 

[Matt Collins]

Yet when someone on the other side of this disagreement posts an opposing opinion on how things went down you ask for "what tantrum" as if you deserve better proof than we do.

I'm just asking what tantrum that Jesse threw over TW's statements because I don't remember one?

 

[phill4paul]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

As long as you keep using this as a response I will keep neg repping it.

 

[jjdoyle]

I'm just asking what tantrum that Jesse threw over TW's statements because I don't remember one?

Can you not prove your claim on the first page still?

And I can tell you from first hand experience that when Tom started publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011, Jesse called me and asked me what was going on. He had the utmost respect for Tom at the time (as did I) and was trying to figure out any way we could get Tom to act like a mature adult. Unfortunately Tom insisted on airing his personal laundry out in public and bashing the campaign like a spoiled bratty child.

You have not provided anything showing Tom Woods publicly attacking Ron's campaign in 2011. And you also provided nothing that you or Jesse tried contacting Tom. Did you or Jesse contact Tom Woods in 2011 over these supposed public attacks?
If so, wouldn't that be against FEC rules because Tom Woods was part of a PAC, the Revolution PAC, in 2011?

So, why would Tom Woods in 2011 be a part of the Revolution PAC, trying to help Ron Paul win, but supposedly ATTACK the campaign publicly? I haven't seen it, nobody has provided it, and the only thing I have seen is that Tom Woods went public in 2012 after the campaign was over.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

No, the list they used was the one from the webpage where people offered to be a delegate. I did call those. but there were mutiple duplicates and they gave it like 1 week before the deadline.

I understand not giving just anyone the list - but they could have utilized resources better or delegate responsibility. if this is not the fault of a campaign manager then who should we blame?

Yep, that's when I got my county list, about a week before the deadline to file. I called them, and those that responded I setup a group meeting with at a park. Most were reluctant to file at the last minute due to the way they were treated in '08, but we did get 2 elected.

 

[ClydeCoulter]

...

RP could have won NH

Please cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

I think JJDoyle has for you several times, already.

 

[jjdoyle]

Since Matt Collins made a false claim about Tom Woods attacking the campaign in 2011 on the first page, and the moderating team around here has allowed that to stay unverified, I decided to reach out to Mr. Woods directly, and he just said this:

"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.


There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.


Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

Followed up with:

"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."

 

[ghengis86]

Since Matt Collins made a false claim about Tom Woods attacking the campaign in 2011 on the first page, and the moderating team around here has allowed that to stay unverified, I decided to reach out to Mr. Woods directly, and he just said this:
"I still have Jesse's correspondence with me from that time, so I can prove that this version of events is a fantasy. Benton wanted me to act like a mature adult? Benton the potty mouth wants Woods to act like an adult? That sounds plausible.

Moreover, everything I said about certain individuals in the campaign is available at my blog at TomWoods.com. None of it is vitriolic or in any way unreasonable. So there's no need to take the word of this Benton apologist -- or my word, for that matter. See what I wrote for yourself.


There is no one on earth, apart from five people in the Benton circle, who has ever accused me of a lack of maturity.


Furthermore, if I were really "attacking Ron's campaign," as opposed to criticizing certain people who obviously did not have Ron's best interests at heart, why am I so close to Ron today? Why did he write the foreword to my most recent book? Why do I appear on his show, and he on mine? Why was I asked to design courses for his homeschool curriculum? Why does his whole family read my books and pose for pictures with me?"

Followed up with:
"I just realized: to the contrary, I kept everything to myself for Ron's sake. I never said a word about what I knew about Benton's incompetence and overall sleaziness. Not a word. I did that for Ron, not for Benton. Even though Benton was bad-mouthing me to Ron every single day, I kept quiet. And for Collins, a Benton acolyte, who was elevated to whatever stature he had by Benton, to attack me now is beyond laughable."

Wow. I owe you rep when I get off the mobile. This seriously hilarious.

 

[newbitech]

Wow. I owe you rep when I get off the mobile. This seriously hilarious.

It's cool how open Tom Woods is.

 

[TaftFan]

JJ...did you link Tom to this thread?

 

[jjdoyle]

JJ...did you link Tom to this thread?

No, I put Matt Collins' lie in the contact email though, as a direct quote from the forums as he had typed it on the first page in this thread.

I could though, but he did 100% give me permission to repost it, and I even asked to make 100% sure even after he had stated it in his first reply, and he said absolutely. I know he has 5 little ones though, and he is busy doing other things, I just appreciated that he responded.

 

[TaftFan]

No, I put Matt Collins' lie in the contact email though, as a direct quote from the forums as he had typed it on the first page in this thread.

I could though, but he did 100% give me permission to repost it, and I even asked to make 100% sure even after he had stated it in his first reply, and he said absolutely. I know he has 5 little ones though, and he is busy doing other things, I just appreciated that he responded.

He's a nice guy. And I know he is busy. I once asked him a question, and he was kind enough to reply that if he didn't have 400 videos to make, he would help me research it.

 

[scrosnoe]

Clearly we all need to learn the difference between grassroots activists and paid campaign staff.

Next question is who works for whom?

Note: Problem is same one for elected officials and constituents.

Clearer now?

Bottom line is who you align yourself with and what you will do and of course the never-ending saga of:

WHO CONTROLS THE LISTS

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Bottom line is...:

WHO CONTROLS THE LISTS

I have an extensive list for Wyoming.

It was extremely difficult to finagle that out of the tight, useless hands of the official campaign in 2012. In contrast, they shared it openly and readily with volunteers for the good of the cause in 2008, back when Jesse Benton was not in charge. Obviously in order to effectively organize and win caucuses and conventions, the supporters would need the lists of other supporters. The campaign in 2008 understood that. The campaign in 2012 from what I could tell must have thought of the lists more as scrosnoe put it above: the lists are power. Our power. And they guarded them jealously. Oh, they were and are happy to lease them out to the Republican National Committee, Mitt Romney, and various others and sundry -- anyone who will show them the money! But to volunteers who could actually help Ron Paul's Presidential Campaign? Pshaw!

Silly peons. This isn't actually about trying to win the Presidency. It's about "baby needs a new three-season deck."

 

[Anti Federalist]

yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Please cite the scientifically sound polling data which backs up this claim.

Yes, Matt, I am well aware that only Collinz approved methods win elections.

You've made that very clear.

So has the Bentonite wing of this whole mess.

Good luck with that.

 

[jjdoyle]

Yes, Matt, I am well aware that only Collinz approved methods win elections.

You've made that very clear.

So has the Bentonite wing of this whole mess.

Good luck with that.

Why in the world is Matt Collins worried with polling data in New Hampshire, where Ron Paul was polling second basically the entire time, but in Michigan where Ron Paul was polling third the entire time, the campaign spent at least $100,000 attacking Rick Santorum....helping Mitt Romney win that state?
You proved that Ron Paul won the country you ran the ad in, which is real world results, not polling data. It's not your fault you had to spend your own dime actually trying to win the state, while the campaign experts ignored the grassroots in the state.

New Hampshire, Ron Paul polling second behind Mitt Romney, not one single Mitt Romney only TV attack ad.
Michigan, Ron Paul polling third behind Mitt Romney and Rick Santorum, not one single Romney only TV attack ad, just Santorum only TV attack ads.

 

[jmdrake]

yard signs don't win elections. Door to door, phone banking, and direct mail win elections. Sometimes mass media ads can have an effect, but not always.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

Yard signs definitely don't hurt. If the campaign discouraged people from putting up yard signs that's just silly. The mass media ads were mis-targetted. If no ads at all had been bought and the money had been spent on hiring phone banks, instead of depending on volunteers, I could have understood that. But why attack down? (Santorum and Gingrich). Ron Paul 2012 produced one ad attacking Santorum and Gingrich for attacking Romney.

Really, this was the worst strategic ad of the campaign by any candidate.

 

[mosquitobite]

Yep, that's when I got my county list, about a week before the deadline to file. I called them, and those that responded I setup a group meeting with at a park. Most were reluctant to file at the last minute due to the way they were treated in '08, but we did get 2 elected.

EXACTLY my experience. Only myself and one other RP delegate from '08 filed to run and the other guy didn't win. The rest wanted no part of it. I was challenged, but overcame the challenge to get through and win.

I don't remember picking up a single delegate from that list (that made it through past the election). I do believe the donation list would have been much larger and therefore it's a shame they didn't call those people. It's even more of a shame that a CAMPAIGN MANAGER wouldn't know Indiana's rules on delegates and when the deadline to file was so that we could have been more effective and overwhelmed them. Ticks me off.

Even now, if we had county/district/regional coordinators for Rand I could be building the network he needs in this area. Starting today. One year before the filing deadline. I have the Ron Paul people and constantly search for more on my own. But not every area has that kind of leader. I can promise MY area - but what good is my little fishbowl in the bigger pool if someone isn't leading?