Optatron
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What ever happened to Taiwan's right to self determination?
wishful thinking
Taiwan should be the 51st state
- Thread starter 500grains
- Start date
wishful thinking
Or how about we make the USA a province of Taiwan (ROC)? You might want to check with the Taiwaneese first before you go spout such nonsense. What makes you think everyone is just longing to become an American?
Well in reality there isn`t a Taiwanese people. The indigenous population of Taiwan was very small and was conquered and assimilated centuries ago. They are all Chinese over there now came over from the mainland if you go far back enough. The name of the country is stil Republic of China and they claim the whole of mainland China as their territory (along with Outer Mongolia which is today Republic of Mongolia).
Of course there has appeared a split in recent years as KMT lost monopoly on power with the new parties wanting to step away from calling themselves ROC to calling themselves Taiwan, stepping away from claiming mainland China and declaring independence. (Which ROC has never done, they don`t claim to be independent - ie seperate from China - their claim is that they are the legitimate government of all of China and not the Communist regime. Sort of like the pre-2001 Northern Alliance claiming they are the government of Afganistan despite controlling only 10% of it.) The split to a lesser extent follows generational lines with the older generations being more pro-ROC and to a greater extent heritage, with the 1949 refugees and their offspring being pro-ROC and the pre-1949 Chinese being more pro-Taiwan.
Ironicaly this split has to an extent brought the KMT and the CP closer as Bejing is alarmed about the agenda of the new parties and would much prefer the KMT keep its hold on power.
Last edited:
heavenlyboy34
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The people like freedom, capitalism, education and hard work. And they do not want to be taken over by China.
So let's make them the 51st state and China c
I wouldn't want to subject anyone to the misery inflicted by American government.
Optatron
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People who live in Taiwan are Taiwanese people, just like people in California are Californians, it doesn't matter if they have the same race as Chinese, they're culturally and politically separated for 60+ years.
Yes, the people are Chinese by race, but do not identify with the mainlanders politically or geographically. No American calls himself English even though he speaks English. No Mexicans or Latin Americans call themselves Spanish just because they speak Spanish.
And no, they've come to realization that mainland China is no longer their territory *you can't argue with de facto*
The region is always Taiwan no matter what the official nation's flag or name is.
Everybody knows the reality is already a separation and declaration of independence is semantics.
Not ironic, it's called politics, realization is what gives your progress.
rockandrollsouls
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We'd just ruin what they have going.
Optatron
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maybe the old saying is true, grass always greener on the other side of the fence.
specsaregood
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While we are on the subject, I say we give Puerto Rico one more chance to become a state, if they vote against it again: WE CUT THEM OFF.
I am talking about the reality within Taiwan itself, but you seem to have an agenda of your own. Doesn`t matter. I don`t really care what you think. But for your information Caliornians are still Americans and there is no such thing as a Californian people. Sleep on it.
Optatron
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Brassmouth
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I can't help but smirk at the Cold War fools in here who still think China is "communist" just because their rulers call themselves Communists.
In contrast, the free-market US is ruled by Republicans and Democrats, they say.
In 20 years, where would you rather be living?
I would (and will, considering I have no inclination to stay in this crumbling empire-state) bet the Chinese will have a far higher standard of living than the Americans.
In contrast, the free-market US is ruled by Republicans and Democrats, they say.
In 20 years, where would you rather be living?
I would (and will, considering I have no inclination to stay in this crumbling empire-state) bet the Chinese will have a far higher standard of living than the Americans.
Optatron
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Depends on where I'd be more happy.
No, same here, good cities have good standards, countryside is cesspool (if they attempt to develop), untouched land is still untouched nature.
Imperial
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They certainly aren't for democracy though. You can have a dictatorship that leverages the free market- even socialist regimes have in some way betrayed actual socialism by allowing the government to participate in international trade.
Typically, this can be really bad. It gives rise to corporatism- as of course a politically omnipotent force will give itself profit. Look at Pinochet in Chile.
An Introduction to the 51 Club in Taiwan
==============================
PART I
"The Formosa Statehood Movement and Its Founder"
Any hurried admission to the temple of freedom would be unwise, any forced admission would be contradiction in terms, unthinkable, revolting. But a duty lay on the people of the United States to admit all qualified applicants freely. (This was Manifest Destiny in its pure form: peaceful, automatic, gradual, and governed by self-determination.)
— Frederik Merk: Manifest Destiny and Mission in American History
With no apology, we're determined to build an American Universal State on the values of freedom, democracy, human rights, rule of law, clean government, market economy, open society, racial equality, social justice, and upward mobility. This is Manifest Destiny with a new and enlightened definition.
— David C. Chou, Founder of the Formosa Statehood Movement
Nearly a century and a half after Commodore Matthew C. Perry and his contemporaries' occupation and settlement plans for Taiwan, the standard of the Formosa Statehood Movement (FSM) was finally raised by David C. Chou, an American-educated Formosan.
David Chou and his comrades set up the 51st Club of Taiwan and started the FSM in 1994. The Club is believed to be the first indigenous civic group of its kind to promote the cause of Formosan statehood in the Union.
David Chou was born in Taiwan in 1949, the year Chiang Kai-shek occupied Taiwan and set up his government-in-exile on this island. He received his Bachelor of Law degree from the National Taipei University (formerly National Chunghsing University) and Master of Comparative Law degree from Dickinson Law School, Pennsylvania State University.
Mr. Chou was actively involved in the Taiwan Independence Movement in his late thirties. Later on, he found that most residents on Taiwan did not want to risk their lives declaring de jure independence, nor did they favor so-called "unification with China," placing their hard-won democracy, freedoms, and higher standard of living in jeopardy. He therefore came up with a new approach — integration into the American Union — as a Third Option.
Mr. Chou believes his plan will create maximum benefits for the Formosan people and Americans as well. For this same reason, he argues, his proposition will prove to be a popular, workable, pragmatic, peaceful — indeed ideal solution.
The Formosa Statehood Movement outright rejects any form of political association with China and urges that any independent nation-building project must give way to the statehood plan, or the Formosan people will find themselves, in the near future, facing very grave dangers in the wake of Communist China's meteoric rise to great-power status, fueled by a massive transfer of wealth from the United States and Western Europe via astronomical trade deficits that pump hundreds of billions of dollars a year into the treasury of Communist China, to be used for whatever purposes the Butchers of Beijing may choose.
The Formosa Statehood Movement offers a pragmatic "2-phase Taiwan-U.S. Integration Project" to the general public of Taiwan. In each stage, a set of necessary measures are to be taken to draw Taiwan closer to America in terms of values and systems.
Phase 1: Taiwan as a Self-Governing Territorial Commonwealth in the American Union
The Formosa Statehood Movement advocates that the U.S. Government and the people on Taiwan work together to make Taiwan a U.S. territory like Puerto Rico or the Northern Mariana Islands, making Taiwan a self-governing "Commonwealth" of the United States, through a plebiscite to be held at such time as the U.S. Government may deem appropriate.
Phase 2: Taiwan as a State of the United States
The Formosa Statehood Movement calls for full membership in the Union for Taiwan as the final, and best, solution to Taiwan's status problem.
The Formosan populace, we believe, will not be completely satisfied with the "Commonwealth" status for very long, because they will eventually appreciate that only with full membership in the Union can they enjoy full representation in the U.S. Congress, full vote for President, and political power commensurate with their economic strength.
Predictably, a future State of Formosa will rank top three in the American family in terms of the size of its population and economy. Taiwan as a State of the United States will have 2 senators and about 33 representatives to voice the will, aspirations, and needs of its residents. It's solid middle-class values of self-help, the need for education, and the overarching importance of family will resonate with the bulk of Americans and reinforce the best values of American civilization.
PART II
"Taipei Journal; Color Taiwan Red, White and Blue? (He's Serious)"
By Seth Faison
The New York Times
August 4, 1999
Even with all the various versions of ''state'' being bandied about in Taiwan these days, it still comes as a surprise to hear someone actually talk about statehood.
As in, American statehood.
Yet David Chou comes right out and says it: Taiwan should become the 51st state of the United States.
Mr. Chou is not joking. He has a plan. It may never work, but just try telling Mr. Chou that. He has been working on it for years.
Mr. Chou set up the 51 Club in 1994 to promote his idea. He admitted 51 members. But to him it is not a gimmick. It is a cause. And with all the confusing explanations that Taiwan's Government puts forth about whether it is part of China or something separate, Mr. Chou's unusual proposal is refreshingly straightforward.
''If we were a state, our most serious problem -- security -- would be solved,'' said Mr. Chou, 49, who looks and sounds considerably more normal than his proposal might suggest. ''The current Government can't solve it; neither can the opposition. But statehood can.''
Taiwan has been drowning in political debate since July 9, when President Lee Teng-hui caused an uproar by saying that from now on talks with China should be held on the basis of equal states, in a ''special state-to-state relationship.'' Beijing immediately denounced Mr. Lee for trying to thwart China's reunification with the island, while opinion polls in Taiwan show cautious support for Mr. Lee's statement.
''Special state-to-state relations, yes, as a U.S. state,'' Mr. Chou said. ''That's the only state we should want to be, the state of Taiwan.''
Face facts, Mr. Chou says. Taiwan would not exist without the United States. Ever since 1949, when Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists retreated to Taiwan after losing China's civil war to Mao Zedong's Communists, they have survived by American protection, American trade and the education of countless Taiwan students in American universities.
Mr. Chou argues that most people here, if given a choice, would prefer to be American.
''A lot of people in Taiwan are embarrassed to say so,'' Mr. Chou said, whispering conspiratorially. ''The Government will never say so. But it's true.''
Mr. Chou seems to fancy himself a visionary. He studied law in the United States, but ended up as a businessman in the toy industry. He seems fiercely committed to the idea of American statehood, but is a bit weak on how to organize.
He needs money, he acknowledges. So in July he set up a foundation called the FormUSA Foundation -- a play on Taiwan's earlier name, Formosa. So far, it has 18 members.
''The Communist Party started with 12,'' he said.
Will it take as many decades to achieve his goal as it did for Communist leaders to achieve theirs?
Unlikely, Mr. Chou said, brimming with confidence. But exactly how long depends on Beijing.
''All the P.L.A. has to do is lob a few missiles over, and people will be swarming to us,'' he said, referring to the People's Liberation Army.
Mr. Chou lived and worked in New York, Pennsylvania and California over a period of 10 years, and he fell in love with what he sees as a reliable legal system and an open-minded society. His 6-year-old son was born in the United States, and Mr. Chou has big plans for him, as a naval officer and perhaps one day as commander of the United States Pacific Fleet.
The fact that his son has an American passport, giving the family a measure of security while Mr. Chou carries a Taiwan passport himself, has nothing to do with his efforts to try to get similar security for his 23 million fellow citizens on Taiwan, he said.
''I know a lot of Taiwanese have reservations about this,'' he said. ''They may worry that they'll lose their culture. But I tell them, you can still eat rice, no one will force you to eat hamburgers.''
On July 23, when Richard Bush, an American special envoy, came to Taiwan to meet President Lee, Mr. Chou organized an admittedly tiny demonstration outside the office that represents United States interests here and presented a petition addressed to President Clinton and leading members of Congress. It was accepted by Susan Stahl, an American official who promised to forward it to Washington.
More mainstream Taiwan residents, in random questioning, see the idea as little more than a bad joke. The Government has yet to dignify it with a comment. Mr. Chou said he thought the Taiwan press has largely ignored him because it is controlled by the local establishment.
Yet The China Times, a leading Taiwan newspaper, took him on with an editorial on July 25, titled ''Who Wants a 51st State?''
''If the United States allowed far-away Taiwan to become a 51st state, a lot of small undeveloped African countries would have done it long ago,'' the editorial said.
One of Mr. Chou's supporters, David Shu, said that, like many young people here, he used to think that the island should declare formal independence, since it has been effectively separate from China for 50 years. But he reasoned that if independence is not feasible, what with China hovering so close by, American statehood is second-best.
When he tries to sell the idea to friends, Mr. Shu said, he compares Taiwan to a pretty young woman.
''China is like a gangster,'' Mr. Shu said. ''The United States is like a policeman. Every time the gangster tries to take the girl in his arms, she has to call the policeman to come save her.
''Our job is to get the girl married to the policeman,'' he continued. ''Then there is no danger, and the protection is permanent.''
Mr. Chou put it another way.
''Everyone who goes to America comes back happy,'' he said.
''Taiwan cannot be independent, so we have to merge with another country. Who should it be?''
==============================
PART I
"The Formosa Statehood Movement and Its Founder"
Any hurried admission to the temple of freedom would be unwise, any forced admission would be contradiction in terms, unthinkable, revolting. But a duty lay on the people of the United States to admit all qualified applicants freely. (This was Manifest Destiny in its pure form: peaceful, automatic, gradual, and governed by self-determination.)
— Frederik Merk: Manifest Destiny and Mission in American History
With no apology, we're determined to build an American Universal State on the values of freedom, democracy, human rights, rule of law, clean government, market economy, open society, racial equality, social justice, and upward mobility. This is Manifest Destiny with a new and enlightened definition.
— David C. Chou, Founder of the Formosa Statehood Movement
Nearly a century and a half after Commodore Matthew C. Perry and his contemporaries' occupation and settlement plans for Taiwan, the standard of the Formosa Statehood Movement (FSM) was finally raised by David C. Chou, an American-educated Formosan.
David Chou and his comrades set up the 51st Club of Taiwan and started the FSM in 1994. The Club is believed to be the first indigenous civic group of its kind to promote the cause of Formosan statehood in the Union.
David Chou was born in Taiwan in 1949, the year Chiang Kai-shek occupied Taiwan and set up his government-in-exile on this island. He received his Bachelor of Law degree from the National Taipei University (formerly National Chunghsing University) and Master of Comparative Law degree from Dickinson Law School, Pennsylvania State University.
Mr. Chou was actively involved in the Taiwan Independence Movement in his late thirties. Later on, he found that most residents on Taiwan did not want to risk their lives declaring de jure independence, nor did they favor so-called "unification with China," placing their hard-won democracy, freedoms, and higher standard of living in jeopardy. He therefore came up with a new approach — integration into the American Union — as a Third Option.
Mr. Chou believes his plan will create maximum benefits for the Formosan people and Americans as well. For this same reason, he argues, his proposition will prove to be a popular, workable, pragmatic, peaceful — indeed ideal solution.
The Formosa Statehood Movement outright rejects any form of political association with China and urges that any independent nation-building project must give way to the statehood plan, or the Formosan people will find themselves, in the near future, facing very grave dangers in the wake of Communist China's meteoric rise to great-power status, fueled by a massive transfer of wealth from the United States and Western Europe via astronomical trade deficits that pump hundreds of billions of dollars a year into the treasury of Communist China, to be used for whatever purposes the Butchers of Beijing may choose.
The Formosa Statehood Movement offers a pragmatic "2-phase Taiwan-U.S. Integration Project" to the general public of Taiwan. In each stage, a set of necessary measures are to be taken to draw Taiwan closer to America in terms of values and systems.
Phase 1: Taiwan as a Self-Governing Territorial Commonwealth in the American Union
The Formosa Statehood Movement advocates that the U.S. Government and the people on Taiwan work together to make Taiwan a U.S. territory like Puerto Rico or the Northern Mariana Islands, making Taiwan a self-governing "Commonwealth" of the United States, through a plebiscite to be held at such time as the U.S. Government may deem appropriate.
Phase 2: Taiwan as a State of the United States
The Formosa Statehood Movement calls for full membership in the Union for Taiwan as the final, and best, solution to Taiwan's status problem.
The Formosan populace, we believe, will not be completely satisfied with the "Commonwealth" status for very long, because they will eventually appreciate that only with full membership in the Union can they enjoy full representation in the U.S. Congress, full vote for President, and political power commensurate with their economic strength.
Predictably, a future State of Formosa will rank top three in the American family in terms of the size of its population and economy. Taiwan as a State of the United States will have 2 senators and about 33 representatives to voice the will, aspirations, and needs of its residents. It's solid middle-class values of self-help, the need for education, and the overarching importance of family will resonate with the bulk of Americans and reinforce the best values of American civilization.
PART II
"Taipei Journal; Color Taiwan Red, White and Blue? (He's Serious)"
By Seth Faison
The New York Times
August 4, 1999
Even with all the various versions of ''state'' being bandied about in Taiwan these days, it still comes as a surprise to hear someone actually talk about statehood.
As in, American statehood.
Yet David Chou comes right out and says it: Taiwan should become the 51st state of the United States.
Mr. Chou is not joking. He has a plan. It may never work, but just try telling Mr. Chou that. He has been working on it for years.
Mr. Chou set up the 51 Club in 1994 to promote his idea. He admitted 51 members. But to him it is not a gimmick. It is a cause. And with all the confusing explanations that Taiwan's Government puts forth about whether it is part of China or something separate, Mr. Chou's unusual proposal is refreshingly straightforward.
''If we were a state, our most serious problem -- security -- would be solved,'' said Mr. Chou, 49, who looks and sounds considerably more normal than his proposal might suggest. ''The current Government can't solve it; neither can the opposition. But statehood can.''
Taiwan has been drowning in political debate since July 9, when President Lee Teng-hui caused an uproar by saying that from now on talks with China should be held on the basis of equal states, in a ''special state-to-state relationship.'' Beijing immediately denounced Mr. Lee for trying to thwart China's reunification with the island, while opinion polls in Taiwan show cautious support for Mr. Lee's statement.
''Special state-to-state relations, yes, as a U.S. state,'' Mr. Chou said. ''That's the only state we should want to be, the state of Taiwan.''
Face facts, Mr. Chou says. Taiwan would not exist without the United States. Ever since 1949, when Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists retreated to Taiwan after losing China's civil war to Mao Zedong's Communists, they have survived by American protection, American trade and the education of countless Taiwan students in American universities.
Mr. Chou argues that most people here, if given a choice, would prefer to be American.
''A lot of people in Taiwan are embarrassed to say so,'' Mr. Chou said, whispering conspiratorially. ''The Government will never say so. But it's true.''
Mr. Chou seems to fancy himself a visionary. He studied law in the United States, but ended up as a businessman in the toy industry. He seems fiercely committed to the idea of American statehood, but is a bit weak on how to organize.
He needs money, he acknowledges. So in July he set up a foundation called the FormUSA Foundation -- a play on Taiwan's earlier name, Formosa. So far, it has 18 members.
''The Communist Party started with 12,'' he said.
Will it take as many decades to achieve his goal as it did for Communist leaders to achieve theirs?
Unlikely, Mr. Chou said, brimming with confidence. But exactly how long depends on Beijing.
''All the P.L.A. has to do is lob a few missiles over, and people will be swarming to us,'' he said, referring to the People's Liberation Army.
Mr. Chou lived and worked in New York, Pennsylvania and California over a period of 10 years, and he fell in love with what he sees as a reliable legal system and an open-minded society. His 6-year-old son was born in the United States, and Mr. Chou has big plans for him, as a naval officer and perhaps one day as commander of the United States Pacific Fleet.
The fact that his son has an American passport, giving the family a measure of security while Mr. Chou carries a Taiwan passport himself, has nothing to do with his efforts to try to get similar security for his 23 million fellow citizens on Taiwan, he said.
''I know a lot of Taiwanese have reservations about this,'' he said. ''They may worry that they'll lose their culture. But I tell them, you can still eat rice, no one will force you to eat hamburgers.''
On July 23, when Richard Bush, an American special envoy, came to Taiwan to meet President Lee, Mr. Chou organized an admittedly tiny demonstration outside the office that represents United States interests here and presented a petition addressed to President Clinton and leading members of Congress. It was accepted by Susan Stahl, an American official who promised to forward it to Washington.
More mainstream Taiwan residents, in random questioning, see the idea as little more than a bad joke. The Government has yet to dignify it with a comment. Mr. Chou said he thought the Taiwan press has largely ignored him because it is controlled by the local establishment.
Yet The China Times, a leading Taiwan newspaper, took him on with an editorial on July 25, titled ''Who Wants a 51st State?''
''If the United States allowed far-away Taiwan to become a 51st state, a lot of small undeveloped African countries would have done it long ago,'' the editorial said.
One of Mr. Chou's supporters, David Shu, said that, like many young people here, he used to think that the island should declare formal independence, since it has been effectively separate from China for 50 years. But he reasoned that if independence is not feasible, what with China hovering so close by, American statehood is second-best.
When he tries to sell the idea to friends, Mr. Shu said, he compares Taiwan to a pretty young woman.
''China is like a gangster,'' Mr. Shu said. ''The United States is like a policeman. Every time the gangster tries to take the girl in his arms, she has to call the policeman to come save her.
''Our job is to get the girl married to the policeman,'' he continued. ''Then there is no danger, and the protection is permanent.''
Mr. Chou put it another way.
''Everyone who goes to America comes back happy,'' he said.
''Taiwan cannot be independent, so we have to merge with another country. Who should it be?''
Confederate
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This is a great idea! Let's start a war with the PRC over a crappy little island!
acptulsa
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Give me your tired, your poor. Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.
Beats imperialism. If these fine people were to choose to join us, I don't know why we'd demur. Our population-wide average IQ could obviously stand the improvement.
Confederate
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Have you ever been to Taiwan? That place is a shithole. And make no doubt about it, it would lead to an all-out war with the PRC. They consider it a rogue province and have even threatened to invade if the ROC declares independence. 90% of the world considers it PRC territory, I think only a dozen countries recognize the ROC as a legitimate government.
acptulsa
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It wouldn't be our first shithole. At least a war with China would partially pay for itself; the first thing we'd do is nullify the T bills they hold. But I don't expect it to come to anything. The Taiwanese are smart enough to know that China is moving toward freedom, while we are moving away from it.
The territory of an illegitimate government. Well, that's just about as self-canceling as your turn signals.
The territory of an illegitimate government. Well, that's just about as self-canceling as your turn signals.
Constitutional Paulicy
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I'm an American living abroad in Taiwan. It's a developing country that has proven to be on the right path. There are plenty of shit holes in the world. I have passed through many. Some of them are right in the United States. Taiwan is not one of them.
Poor people here live right alongside the rich and middle class. Yet the crime is very little compared to the US and there isn't a single neighborhood here that I would fear walking through alone at night.
These people have been through so much oppression by the Dutch, Spanish, Communist China and the imperialist Japanese. Yet they are one of the least xenophobic people I know. You would think they would resent the people of these nations but they are wise enough to know it's the government leadership of those nations and not the people themselves. That's why they are very wary of even their own current system of government. Their former president Chen Shui-Bian is now in prison for corruption. As corrupt as our leaders have been, how likely would it be we would manage to have Obama imprisoned for 19 years?
Poor people here live right alongside the rich and middle class. Yet the crime is very little compared to the US and there isn't a single neighborhood here that I would fear walking through alone at night.
These people have been through so much oppression by the Dutch, Spanish, Communist China and the imperialist Japanese. Yet they are one of the least xenophobic people I know. You would think they would resent the people of these nations but they are wise enough to know it's the government leadership of those nations and not the people themselves. That's why they are very wary of even their own current system of government. Their former president Chen Shui-Bian is now in prison for corruption. As corrupt as our leaders have been, how likely would it be we would manage to have Obama imprisoned for 19 years?
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