Syria splashes NATO jet

[Demigod]

Turkey has been crying for months now about a "refugee" crisis and there are only 30 000 refugees.More people try to escape in a month to the USA from the drug wars in Mexico

 

[Zippyjuan]

Turkey has threatened to "respond" but both sides still seem to be doing their best to keep the situation from escalating. Syria is calling it a "mistake". The jet was allegedly only about half a mile inside Syrian airspace.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Turkey has been crying for months now about a "refugee" crisis and there are only 30 000 refugees.More people try to escape in a month to the USA from the drug wars in Mexico

Last year there was a net migration of zero from Mexico into the US. 30,000 a month would be 360,000 a year.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2012/04/23/net-migration-from-mexico-falls-to-zero-and-perhaps-less/

The largest wave of immigration in history from a single country to the United States has come to a standstill. After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed, according to a new analysis of government data from both countries by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.

The standstill appears to be the result of many factors, including the weakened U.S. job and housing construction markets, heightened border enforcement, a rise in deportations, the growing dangers associated with illegal border crossings, the long-term decline in Mexico’s birth rates and broader economic conditions in Mexico.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Last year there was a net migration of zero from Mexico into the US. 30,000 a month would be 360,000 a year.

There are Mexicans in America who were displaced because of the drug wars. Your post seems not to acknowledge this. Any logical person could see that beheaded family members, bodies hanging from bridges, and police officers' heads on pikes, would cause a few people to seek safe-haven. If you are not near the border states you will never hear about what is really going on on a day to day basis. We can argue about the numbers another day.

http://www.blogdelnarco.com/

http://translate.google.com/#auto|en|%0A%0A

Blogdelnarco used to be available in English directly from the site but I guess it isn't anymore. I also should warn that some of the pictures/videos are VERY GRAPHIC. (What you never hear or see in America)

 

[Zippyjuan]

I live in a border town- San Diego to be exact. Yes, people are fleeing that but not coming to the US at a rate of 30,000 a month and those who do come are being offset by others deciding to return to Mexico- that is why the net figure was zero last year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/19/us-usa-mexico-asylum-idUSTRE76I6P020110719

More Mexicans fleeing the drug war seek U.S. asylum

Amid the violence, asylum requests from Mexico reached a record 5,551 last year, according to U.S. government figures, more than a third up on 2006 when President Felipe Calderon took office and sent the military to crush the cartels. Just 165 asylum requests were granted in 2010.

Among the wave of panic-stricken asylum seekers are the muckraking journalists who chronicle brutal gang warfare in Ciudad Juarez and Mexico's northern Chihuahua state, the police officers tasked with curbing the violence, and the rights campaigners clamoring for justice.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/04/ciudad-juarez-mexico-drug-war_n_1127914.html

Ciudad Juarez: Mexico Drug War Forces Families To Flee

Recent survey results by Parametria found that 1.6 million Mexicans have moved because of drug violence since 2006. One study by the Geneva-based Internal Displacement Monitoring Centre put the number at 230,000 in 2010, estimating that half fled to the United States.

Another study, by demographer Rodolfo Rubio at Colegio de la Frontera Norte, says 200,000 people left Juarez alone for other Mexican cities between 2007 and 2010.

Many of the affected are working class or poor who can't leave the country.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I live in a border town- San Diego to be exact.

So you are willing to say that there is an uncountable number (I say this as in they can't be counted in that they live off of the radar, not as in, there are millions upon millions) of Mexicans in America who fled because of drug-related violence in Mexico? I cannot possibly imagine a circumstance in which the numbers of migrating Mexicans would be reversing. Especially considering the violence is only getting worse and worse. I wonder how their numbers are generated. Possibly deportation rates? In any instance, logic tells me that that study is flawed. How, and the better question of why, is something I'll leave you to think about.

ETA: I see you have stated as much. (My first question) I also want to add that even when I lived in Phoenix I hardly heard anything about the drug war. Just an occaisional story every once in a while. I could not believe some of the things going on. One case that comes to mind is the warden and guards of a high security prison letting out sicarios (hitmen) from the prison, even going so far as to give them their service weapons, to execute people. (I believe they shot everyone at a graduation party killing twenty or so kids) There wasn't a mention of it in Arizona. (Or any MSM source for that matter)

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Yes, people are fleeing that but not coming to the US at a rate of 30,000 a month and those who do come are being offset by others deciding to return to Mexico- that is why the net figure was zero last year.

I just don't see how they could come up with an accurate figure on this. It isn't as if when they arrive they sign a guest book. No one can be certain of how many people have crossed the U.S.-Mexican border. Anything contrary to this simple fact is probably just politically sponsored bullshit used to placate a certain voter block. "How to Lie with Statistics," and all that.

 

[Zippyjuan]

If you can provide alternative numbers I would certainly like to look at them. There are those who fled the drug wars to other parts of Mexico or Central and South America as well. The reversal of migration is also effected by the US economy- there aren't the jobs for immigrants like there used to be. Since the start of the recession in 2007, the extimated number of all illegal imigrants in the country has fallen by over two million because there is less opportunity, more have been getting deported, and border security is tighter than it once was.

From the conservative CATO institiution:
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/what...n-illegal-immigration-its-the-economy-stupid/

According to Pew’s Jeffrey Passel and D’Vera Cohn, the annual inflow of unauthorized immigrants dropped by two-thirds during 2007-09 compared to 2000-05. That plunge has contributed to an overall decline in the total number of illegal immigrants in the United States from a peak of 12.6 million in March 2007 to 11.1 million in March 2009. Pew calls this “the first significant reversal in the growth of this population over the past two decades.”

The 11 million figure is for 2009. Numbers for 2010 dropped to 10.6 million.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...ion-down-because-of-economy-or-border-control

A report that America’s illegal immigrant population declined by almost 1 million in one year is fomenting hot debate about why it is happening, whether the statistics are correct, and how the numbers should affect US immigration reform.

The number of illegal immigrants living in the United States dropped to 10.6 million in 2009 from 11.6 million in 2008, the sharpest decrease in 30 years and a second straight year of decline, according to a Department of Homeland Security report released this week.

Some immigration-control groups say the decline is happening primarily because of a buildup of border patrol and surveillance – and that the buildup should thus continue to further reduce illegal immigration. Other groups claim it is a result of the poor economy. Some say it is both, and still others doubt the statistics altogether

 

[oyarde]

Well , I have no numbers , but my gut feeling is that due to the past four years of US economic activity ( lack of jobs/oppurtunites) that net zero should be close ....

 

[Zippyjuan]

When the economy picks up again, I would expect immigration to also pick up again. But demographics suggest it won't be as large of numbers as in the past- Mexico population is growing much more slowly (fewer kids- down from six or eight to about two per family) and Mexico having more jobs themselves for their own citizens.

 

[oyarde]

When the economy picks up again, I would expect immigration to also pick up again. But demographics suggest it won't be as large of numbers as in the past- Mexico population is growing much more slowly (fewer kids- down from six or eight to about two per family) and Mexico having more jobs themselves for their own citizens.

Yeah , I think IF the economy were to pick up immigration would as well , I do nor forsee any changes though ...

 

[kcchiefs6465]

If you can provide alternative numbers I would certainly like to look at them. There are those who fled the drug wars to other parts of Mexico or Central and South America as well. The reversal of migration is also effected by the US economy- there aren't the jobs for immigrants like there used to be. Since the start of the recession in 2007, the estimated number of all illegal imigrants in the country has fallen by over two million because there is less opportunity, more have been getting deported, and border security is tighter than it once was.

"...whether the statistics are correct, and how the numbers should affect US immigration reform."- (Quote from article, not Zippy)

I have stated that I have no way to determine how many illegal Mexican immigrants there are in this country. The quote pretty much sums it up. I don't believe the statistics are correct and I wonder what immigration laws will be created or repealed as a result of this study. Perhaps used to justify Obama's recent move on allowing certain immigrants to stay?... I really don't know for sure. I am reasonably sure there is a political motive to the study, or rather the results of the study. I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't believe one could accurately determine a number. And frankly, never will.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Yeah , I think IF the economy were to pick up immigration would as well , I do nor forsee any changes though ...

The economy compared to what? Mexico? The U.S. under-the-table daily pay is still leaps and bounds better than Mexican maquiladoran pay. And I'm willing to bet the work is better as well. That is incentive enough. Add to it the fact that there is a drug war raging with hundreds of people being tortued, beheaded, hanged, a day and I'm going to go out on a limb and say Mexican immigration has not slowed. It's not just a drug war by the way. They are fighting over "coyote" (human-smuggler) routes as well.

 

[oyarde]

I have stated that I have no way to determine how many illegal Mexican immigrants there are in this country. The quote pretty much sums it up. I don't believe the statistics are correct and I wonder what immigration laws will be created or repealed as a result of this study. Perhaps used to justify Obama's recent move on allowing certain immigrants to stay?... I really don't know for sure. I am reasonably sure there is a political motive to the study, or rather the results of the study. I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't believe one could accurately determine a number. And frankly, never will.

I think I agree that accurate numbers are not likely , more like a guestimate ...

 

[Zippyjuan]

The economy compared to what? Mexico? The U.S. under-the-table daily pay is still leaps and bounds better than Mexican maquiladoran pay. And I'm willing to bet the work is better as well. That is incentive enough. Add to it the fact that there is a drug war raging with hundreds of people being tortued, beheaded, hanged, a day and I'm going to go out on a limb and say Mexican immigration has not slowed. It's not just a drug war by the way. They are fighting over "coyote" (human-smuggler) routes as well.

You are right that exact numbers are impossible and that those were estimates. But aprehensions of people trying to cross the border are down (those are verifyable numbers) and deportations had been running at record highs (also verifyable numbers).

 

[psi2941]

those Turkish pilots are alive! their just being hunted by the Syrian army just like the movie Behind Enemy Lines!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_Enemy_Lines_(2001_film)

on the serious note, isn't turkey part of NATO?

so if Turkey and Syria goes into an all out war, what would NATO do?

 

[Demigod]

those Turkish pilots are alive! their just being hunted by the Syrian army just like the movie Behind Enemy Lines!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_Enemy_Lines_(2001_film)

on the serious note, isn't turkey part of NATO?

so if Turkey and Syria goes into an all out war, what would NATO do?

NATO is technically a defense pact so Syria would need to attack Turkey to activate it but still the alliance members have very weak relations so you can not be sure what will happen.I do not see anyone except maybe the UK to send any troops to Turkey .

 

[Vanilluxe]

NATO is technically a defense pact so Syria would need to attack Turkey to activate it but still the alliance members have very weak relations so you can not be sure what will happen.I do not see anyone except maybe the UK to send any troops to Turkey .

Turkey doesn't really need any help defeating Syria. The Syrian government is already having a hard time defeating the rebels, so a large modern army like Turkey would help the rebels win within a month.

 

[Pauls' Revere]

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-turns-nato-over-syrian-attack-001605065.html

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkey has accused Syria of shooting down one of its military reconnaissance jets in international airspace without warning and summoned a NATO meeting for Tuesday to agree a response to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

Turkey's cabinet was due to meet on Monday to discuss Friday's incident, which lent a more threatening international dimension to the 16-month-old uprising against Assad. Britain called the attack over the eastern Mediterranean outrageous and said it stood ready to back strong action in the United Nations.

Turkish newspapers welcomed Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's decision to invoke an article in the NATO alliance's founding treaty providing for urgent consultations if a member considered its security interests threatened.

"Turkey has moved into action" both Milliyet and Vatan newspapers declared in headlines under the NATO flag.

Oh boy, here we go.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

If Reuters says it is escalating, then that is the plan.