***SUPER BROCHURE PROJECT Idaho***

[Feeding the Abscess]

Well, those where we are competing with the campaign. PAC or other side grassroots efforts should complement, not compete, with the campaign.

I agree. Best to bask in the delights of the division of labor than fight against it.

 

[KingNothing]

Leaving aside the possibility that the "SUPER BROCHURE" might be damaging... shouldn't we ask to see proof that it actually works? The burden of proof in this instance is on the people asking for money. They haven't shown enough of it to earn mine.

My guess is that it neither hurts nor helps. If that's true, we should be spending our time and money on something else. Until the Super Brochure folks can prove otherwise, I see no reason to change my beliefs on that matter.

 

[Tobias2dope]

How about instead of B!TCHING about this why don't we all get together and call these people.

Flood them with phone calls or something.

Do something if you really care.

 

[tfurrh]

why has this thread not dropped yet?

 

[mmadness]

My understanding is that they are constantly evaluating. Which is one of the reasons they are open to feedback.

I keep saying that if you have PROOF that the brochures are doing harm, contact them with it. For some reason, you don't seem to want to do the very thing that could affect the change that you desire.

Again, actions speak louder than words. So they are "constantly evaluating" but unwilling to suspend if multiple sources are saying that the product does not work? How can you say that they are actually listen if they won't stop?

What do you think we are doing with contacting RPP and also posting on these forums? We actually doing something about it and effecting change, unlike someone essentially saying we can't come out against the brochures because we don't have "HARD proof".

My question is this - what would constitute "hard proof" that would convince you of the brochures not working?

Would it be talking with the grassroots involved in Iowa who have said that this brochure harmed more than help? Would it be talking to sources within the campaign? Would experienced grassroots people like Aaron, iRoots and RevPac not be enough to convince you? These and the fact that we did worse in the states which had the SB direct-mailed should be enough to prove that.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that you would be willing to change your mind. I was originally for these brochures, but after a lot of reports, changed my mind. Are you able to be convinced? I'm not convinced that you are.

If you are left with that impression, that would be of your own doing. See, instead of whining about it on an internet forum, which by the way does absolutely zero good in affecting the change you desire, I picked up the phone and talked to Curt.

Great, so warning people about these brochures, which could hurt Dr. Paul's chances, is "whining" now? What do you call it when we defend Dr. Paul from the MSM? Is that "whining" too? You say that you are against personal insults, but here you go insulting someone who is defending Dr. Paul.

There you go again, blubbering that I support the brochures, when I have told you more than once that I am not. At least with respect to them being mailed to Republicans. I have no vested interest in them whatsoever.

Really, you don't support the brochures? Then you should have no problem with those of us exercising our free speech to criticize these brochures then. Oh wait, you don't support the brochures but you don't support people trying to shine the light on them.

You can gather what evidence you have that they are hurting the campaign and contact Curt, or you can continue to blather on the internet, where it will do no good. It's your choice.

We already have the evidence from the completed primaries. Whether or not you choose to objectively look at that, as well as listen to experienced grassroots, is your choice.

Really - no good? I have had multiple posters thank me for letting them know about these brochures, they have started putting in their RPF sig warning statements about these brochures. I think that these discussions make a difference.

I'm not an attorney, but let's check the definition, shall we?


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/libel

Basically, back up your charges. Which to this point, you have not.

We have. You back up your charges that the brochures work. Plus if everything criticizing a product is libel, then how can we ever criticize a corporation? How can we criticize the government? Oh wait, it's libel. Stop with the fear tactics!

 

[mmadness]

Leaving aside the possibility that the "SUPER BROCHURE" might be damaging... shouldn't we ask to see proof that it actually works? The burden of proof in this instance is on the people asking for money. They haven't shown enough of it to earn mine.

Agreed. Especially if the campaign is asking for money at this crucial stage and this project is diverting badly needed funds.

 

[Teamronin]

The project has now moved on to Georgia front page... I just think it's a shame, considering the campaign has asked us to hit the $2 million money bomb mark by midnight tonight... Oh well, I guess for some, Ron Pauls requests' take the back seat to this for profit project....

 

[Lucille]

The project has now moved on to Georgia front page... I just think it's a shame, considering the campaign has asked us to hit the $2 million money bomb mark by midnight tonight... Oh well, I guess for some, Ron Pauls requests' take the back seat to this for profit project....

On the DP: Inspired Anonymous Donors Pledge *Another* $15,000 in Matching for Georgia Super Brochure Mailing - Deadline Midnight Tonight!

The SB dumbasses must be stopped.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Again, actions speak louder than words. So they are "constantly evaluating" but unwilling to suspend if multiple sources are saying that the product does not work? How can you say that they are actually listen if they won't stop?

What do you think we are doing with contacting RPP and also posting on these forums? We actually doing something about it and effecting change, unlike someone essentially saying we can't come out against the brochures because we don't have "HARD proof".

My question is this - what would constitute "hard proof" that would convince you of the brochures not working?

You need someone with first-hand experience with the brochures actually turning someone away from Ron Paul.

Would it be talking with the grassroots involved in Iowa who have said that this brochure harmed more than help?

If it is first-hand experience, yes. Otherwise, it is hearsay, in which case the answer would be no.

Would it be talking to sources within the campaign?

Sure. That would certainly be relevant. But, it would have to be more than what was posted here that one time. Because it wasn't clear whether the issue was the coffins on the brochures, or something else.

Would experienced grassroots people like Aaron, iRoots and RevPac not be enough to convince you?

Do they have first-hand experience?

These and the fact that we did worse in the states which had the SB direct-mailed should be enough to prove that.

Actually, no, that isn't logical. There could be any number of other factors involved.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove that you would be willing to change your mind. I was originally for these brochures, but after a lot of reports, changed my mind.

You are the one making the accusation, dude. Prove your case.

Are you able to be convinced? I'm not convinced that you are.

You are of course free to believe whatever you want to believe. But, you are getting off-track. This isn't about convincing me, it is about you gathering the proof to make your case to ronpaulproducts. Thus far, you have not and when that is pointed out to you, it seems to aggravate you.

 

[mmadness]

You need someone with first-hand experience with the brochures actually turning someone away from Ron Paul.

If it is first-hand experience, yes. Otherwise, it is hearsay, in which case the answer would be no.

Sigh... this has been done to death. There have been several RPFers who have stepped up in previous threads about these with first-hand experience in the field. gerryb I'm pretty sure was one. Just check Hot Topics or wait and I'm sure someone will step up to confirm. It wasn't just one RPFer, it was multiple. I mean if it was just one then I would have just discounted it myself.

Sure. That would certainly be relevant. But, it would have to be more than what was posted here that one time. Because it wasn't clear whether the issue was the coffins on the brochures, or something else.

Again, not sure if you were here for the multiple threads that ended up getting moved to Hot Topics. You have a pretty high post count but maybe you just missed it all. But we had multiple sources and RPFers step up and say that the official campaign is against it. But due to FEC regulations, they can't "officially" say anything. But the info has filtered out.

Do they have first-hand experience?

Pretty positive. Aaron ended up being the guy who went from Indiana to Maine to help live-stream the caucuses. I would trust what he has to say, at least over someone who has a vested interest in the project (Curt). Not that I like to point out post counts or join dates but the people who have stepped up also on RPF up I trust based on how long they've been posting and their first-hand accounts. Too many people would have to be lying if that were the case. Wouldn't it make sense that you would have at least someone who became a RPFer because they got mailed a SB? I haven't heard of one.

Actually, no, that isn't logical. There could be any number of other factors involved.

Like what?

You are the one making the accusation, dude. Prove your case.

I think you are missing crucial information to based your judgments on so until you do I don't think we can have a valid, objective discussion. For example, have you checked out this thread recently? Zak Carter just came out and admitted that he was paid to shill for Ron Paul Products and the brochures:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ssion-Concerning-the-quot-Super-quot-Brochure

Now there are a lot of fishy things coming out about these brochures. Too many things are adding up. Who knows how many others are getting paid to shill for these brochures? Why does Ron Paul Products need to resort to such deceptive tactics?

You are of course free to believe whatever you want to believe. But, you are getting off-track. This isn't about convincing me, it is about you gathering the proof to make your case to ronpaulproducts. Thus far, you have not and when that is pointed out to you, it seems to aggravate you.

Well, it's a valid question, because it goes towards objectivity.

So again the question is, what would constitute "hard proof" for you to be convinced? Because if you can't actually say what that is, or convince someone that you can change your mind or be objective, then whatever arguments you have regarding these brochures are not objective. And I think it's important for the objective RPFer to be able to sort out the best information, because ultimately, our goal is to get Dr. Paul elected in 2012 first and foremost. The educational campaign comes second.

If Ron Paul Products were truly interested in educating the people, then why not release a brochure, but as Aaron points out, without Ron Paul on it? Why would they need Ron Paul on it at all? Shouldn't their product stand up by itself?

I am not against a company making profit for providing a good service or product. Without deception.

Let's even just say they discontinue the direct-mail program, which is what most people are requesting. They're still in business selling their brochures the usual way, to RP supporters, as well as many different products. Why not even consider suspending if it's hurting Dr. Paul? At some point one has to objectively conclude that they will not listen to any negative feedback about this program, so that is why the program continues, even though they have other ways of making money.

Plus, you keep making the assertion that the proof has yet to be gathered, which I think most objective people can determine that proof has been gathered based on our finishes in the primaries. And you also keep making the assertion that this "hard proof" must be submitted to Ron Paul Products, and only to Ron Paul Products, without being discussed in the open.

This brings up an analogy... like asking the fox how to better guard the henhouse next time. Or asking Lucy not to keep swiping the ball away from Charlie Brown. Or asking someone to gather evidence that the federal government is expanding, and then asking them to report that proof only to the government! When the solution is to get the truth out into the public, and to divert the resources to someone who will actually shrink government (Dr. Paul).

Ron Paul Products is not running for President. Dr. Paul is. Ron Paul Products will not shrink government. Dr. Paul will. Let's not lose sight of that fact and realize that corporations can and will be motivated first and foremost by profit, not ethics.

 

[LibertyEagle]

...

Yet another wall of text.

I have asked you repeatedly to show the proof you have and to date, I have not seen you post any first-hand experiences at all. If you think people should just believe you because you scream the loudest, well, that is not objective in the least.

Show the first-hand experiences, right here, right now. Stop posting book long posts and show us the proof. That is all it ever required. Can you do it?

I think you are missing crucial information to based your judgments on so until you do I don't think we can have a valid, objective discussion. For example, have you checked out this thread recently? Zak Carter just came out and admitted that he was paid to shill for Ron Paul Products and the brochures:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-quot-Brochure

He posted it at midnight last night, so no.

Yes, it is very interesting and certainly concerning. That's one nail.

EDIT: It appears that Zak was given a small sum of money to set up interviews and maybe some web advertising. I hope I'm remembering this correctly.

Well, it's a valid question, because it goes towards objectivity.

So again the question is, what would constitute "hard proof" for you to be convinced? Because if you can't actually say what that is, or convince someone that you can change your mind or be objective, then whatever arguments you have regarding these brochures are not objective. And I think it's important for the objective RPFer to be able to sort out the best information, because ultimately, our goal is to get Dr. Paul elected in 2012 first and foremost. The educational campaign comes second.

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES. How many times do I have to tell you this?

What Zak posted tonight on Daily Paul about being paid to promote the brochures is certainly very damning. But, in my opinion, we still need direct evidence that they have turned people away from Ron Paul. I'm not sure why you are having such a hard time understanding this. Hearsay isn't the same. Remember that old game of telephone that you might have played in kindergarten. The story started out one way at the beginning, but by the time it went through a lot of other people, it was being recounted totally differently at the end.

Just show some first hand experiences of people who were turned away from Ron Paul, because of the brochures. It should be easy, since you are so involved in this. That is all it will take to nail the coffin shut.

 

[eleganz]

If they're going to send super brochures to states, at least don't send them to states that the campaign is actually contesting with a major campaign presence.


It is almost like everything they are doing is purposefully counter-productive to the campaign.

Everywhere these brochures go is LOSING VOTES.



Stop asking for PROOF, you know it isn't going to happen because that would take an official statement from the campaign.



THE SUPER BROCHURE IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.

 

[mmadness]

Yet another wall of text.

Well, at least read it before just slamming it as a "wall of text". Oh wait, that's the "Super" Brochure we are talking about.

I have asked you repeatedly to show the proof you have and to date, I have not seen you post any first-hand experiences at all.

Show the first-hand experiences, right here, right now. Stop posting book long posts and show us the proof. That is all it ever required. Can you do it?

We still need the first-hand experiences though.

FIRST HAND EXPERIENCES. How many times do I have to tell you this?

Just show some first hand experiences of people who were turned away from Ron Paul, because of the brochures.

Just did a search - surprised how quick and easy it was because of so many threads and people upset.

One post right here has a ton (credit to gerryb):
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...re-Question.&p=4203676&viewfull=1#post4203676

 

[LibertyEagle]

Thanks.

The links at the bottom of his post were more of what I was looking for. This one, in particular, was the type of first-hand experience that I was hoping to see.

I was a participant in the Youth for Ron Paul GOTV efforts in Iowa.
We heard from top officials of the Campaign, on several occasions, tell us that they have material evidence that the Super Brochures have hurt Ron Paul in the eyes undecided voters, social conservatives, and others.

Even while we were phonebanking, we had to clear misconceptions with several individuals on Dr. Paul's positions on the Fed, IRS, and even 9/11, thanks to what they read on those dark green brochures.

Your heart is in the right place. We're all fighting for the same cause. So when someone says, with this much emphasis, that the Super Brochures have hurt us more than they have helped us, I hope you take our word for it, along with what I've said above.

That was the only one I saw that was first-hand. Have you seen more, because I'd like to be armed with several, if you know of them. Thanks.

 

[LibertyEagle]

If they're going to send super brochures to states, at least don't send them to states that the campaign is actually contesting with a major campaign presence.

I have already asked them much the same.

It is almost like everything they are doing is purposefully counter-productive to the campaign.

Everywhere these brochures go is LOSING VOTES.

Stop asking for PROOF, you know it isn't going to happen because that would take an official statement from the campaign.

Apparently, that's not true. I quoted one in my last post. There are tons of brochures out there now. There should be quite a bit of first-hand experiences from the grassroots, I would think.

Having proof is our best chance to get these things stopped. That is why it is important.

THE SUPER BROCHURE IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.

I agree with that. But, if just saying it was enough, they would already be stopped.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

One of the problems is that Ron Paul needs to present that viewpoint too.

I'm not sure he has even talked about the IRS this campaign cycle.

 

[KMX]

Goodbye 1st place finish, hello 3rd place... again. Notice the states that we have done well in.

NH, Minnisota, Maine - NONE OF THEM HAD SB SENT
IA,SC,FL,NV - ALL STATES WHERE SB WERE SENT!

IA, Fraud
SC, Fraud
FL, Winer Take all Ron Paul said F U FL.
NV, Fraud

 

[specsaregood]

The fact that these people paid trolls to promote their brochure here on rpfs and hide that they were getting paid should be enough to finally put these things into their grave where they belong.

 

[gerryb]

Thanks.

The links at the bottom of his post were more of what I was looking for. This one, in particular, was the type of first-hand experience that I was hoping to see.



That was the only one I saw that was first-hand. Have you seen more, because I'd like to be armed with several, if you know of them. Thanks.

There have been dozens posted. If more people were willing to break their NDA's - there would be more(at least one on that thread was deleted). I linked to several of them in one post when I got tired of people like you saying "oh but that last post was just one example". After I got 6, I got tired of looking.

click the link in my signature

 

[LibertyProsperity_56]

Here is a confession of someone who was paid by RonPaulProducts to promote it on various forums: http://www.dailypaul.com/215695/my-confession-concerning-the-super-brochure?page=3

I wish more people would step up and inform us about the fact that the SuperBrochure is a big money-making scam that is hurting the campaign.