Stubborn Christians???

[traitorist]

in response to the OP, don't fret it. many times it is not how you delivered the information, it is how they received it. it hurts, but we all make mistakes, pick yourself up and move on. apologize, forgive and keep loving your friend. i too, have lost 'Christian' friends for my anti-war stance, but I know that Jesus commanded us to love even our enemies, and he also commanded us to come out of the apostate church, so I have. losing friends has just been part of that process. i've made new ones since then. the truth is going to drive many of your friends away, that's part of the walk we were promised. we weren't promised to be loved by the world, but hated by it. the hard truth is that many who call themselves brother and sister in the church are going to betray us in the end. a prayer of strength for you.

 

[truthbetold]

Your friend feels guilty

The reaction your getting is from someone who knows they are wrong subconciously but can't accept the responsibility of supporting the death of so many innocents.

From RP Statement of Faith..
~~~~~~~~~~~~``
I have also acted to protect the lives of Americans by my adherence to the doctrine of “just war.” This doctrine, as articulated by Augustine, suggested that war must only be waged as a last resort--- for a discernible moral and public good, with the right intentions, vetted through established legal authorities (a constitutionally required declaration of the Congress), and with a likely probability of success.

It has been and remains my firm belief that the current United Nations-mandated, no-win police action in Iraq fails to meet the high moral threshold required to wage just war. That is why I have offered moral and practical opposition to the invasion, occupation and social engineering police exercise now underway in Iraq. It is my belief, borne out by five years of abject failure and tens of thousands of lost lives, that the Iraq operation has been a dangerous diversion from the rightful and appropriate focus of our efforts to bring to justice to the jihadists that have attacked us and seek still to undermine our nation, our values, and our way of life.

I opposed giving the president power to wage unlimited and unchecked aggression, However, I did vote to support the use of force in Afghanistan. I also authored H.R. 3076, the September 11 Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001. A letter of marque and reprisal is a constitutional tool specifically designed to give the president the authority to respond with appropriate force to those non-state actors who wage aggression against the United States while limiting his authority to only those responsible for the atrocities of that day. Such a limited authorization is consistent with the doctrine of just war and the practical aim of keeping Americans safe while minimizing the costs in blood and treasure of waging such an operation.

On September 17, 2001, I stated on the house floor that “…striking out at six or eight or even ten different countries could well expand this war of which we wanted no part. Without defining the enemy there is no way to know our precise goal or to know when the war is over. Inadvertently more casual acceptance of civilian deaths as part of this war I'm certain will prolong the agony and increase the chances of even more American casualties. We must guard against this if at all possible.” I’m sorry to say that history has proven this to be true.

 

[truthbetold]

I've lost many clients and suffered financially because of supporting RP.

Make sure they understand that we are not going after the terrorist but invading a country that did not attack us and have caused between 1/2 and a million deaths of civilians, women and children. Much higher if you take into account of the years of restrictions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. Paul “Keep your Eye on The Target” Osama Bin Ladin. Ron Paul the Real Terrorist Terminator!

Congressman Paul wrote a column in November of 2001 urging Congress to "keep an eye on its target," the target being Osama bin Laden and others responsible for the 9/11 attacks. He warned, "In the undeclared wars of Vietnam and Korea, the enemy was known and clearly defined, even though our policies were confused and contradictory. Today our policies relating to the growth of terrorism are also confused and contradictory; however, the precise enemy and its location are not known by anyone. Until the enemy is defined and understood, it cannot be accurately targeted or vanquished." Dr. Paul supported the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan to find bin Laden and take him out. Ron Paul wants to go after the real terrorist, not use terrorism as an excuse to invade countries.

The Constitution provides a means of going after terrorist / “pirates” through letters of marque and reprisal. We should be going after Bin Ladin. “If you were attacked by the mafia you wouldn’t invade Italy!” There is no need for the U.S. to go to war or invade a country when going after a group of terrorist.

Congressman Paul has been the only member of Congress to authorize the U.S. State Department to issue such letters of marque and reprisal. As economist Fred Foldvary writes, "The Founders of the U.S. Constitution included Marque and Reprisal in addition to authorizing Congress to declare war, so that in some cases, the U.S. government would not have to engage the military and have a costly war. The risk would then be concentrated on those who chose to engage in the reprisal. This empowers private citizens to protect themselves and other Americans." Under a bill sponsored by Dr. Paul in 2008, private U.S. citizens would be able to hunt down, attack and collect assets from terrorists who have or are planning to commit hostile acts against the U.S. and its citizens. The bill introduced by Paul is a Constitutional method of dealing with the terrorists. The War in Iraq is an unconstitutional method of dealing with the terrorists

Dr. Paul will Terminate The Terrorist through Constitutional means not giving up your liberty and destroying the constitution as all other candidates Republican or Democrat Support. He supports securing U.S. borders and bringing U.S. troops home and counter-intelligence to prevent future terrorist attacks.

“Those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will have neither.”

 

[truthbetold]

One last thing ~ most christians are pro-life.
Make the distinction between RP and all others on this issue.

RP has a plan that will effectivly nullify Roe V Wade with a signature. All others philisophically are pro life but just hope to appoint a judge and maybe someday....

God will not judge christians by who other people vote for, but for who they vote for. Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Do they really want to have to answer to G-d for the millions of babies that will be killed if any other republican or democrat gets in office.
For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..

 

[Kade]

Yes, blame it on the Christian voters. Because when the war started, the majority of the population wasn't in support of the war or anything. It was only the magical, 30% neocons. Please.

You moron. The majority of the population are Christian voters. WTF is this rampant ignorance here?

 

[Kade]

One last thing ~ most christians are pro-life.
Make the distinction between RP and all others on this issue.

RP has a plan that will effectivly nullify Roe V Wade with a signature. All others philisophically are pro life but just hope to appoint a judge and maybe someday....

God will not judge christians by who other people vote for, but for who they vote for. Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Do they really want to have to answer to G-d for the millions of babies that will be killed if any other republican or democrat gets in office.
For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..

Unless of course the obvious and most rational option is true; that your religion is a worthless delusion, and heaven, like hell, is a figment of bloated and evil minds frothing with the simplicity of a single color Rubik's cube. Seriously, your religion, and all its' thousands of variants, from Mormonism down to Westboro are the only original sin of mankind. This is anger. Anger at how ostensibly close minded and shallow of a person you demonstrate yourself to be... and yet, it will be I who is roasted, because nobody can see the kind of hate something as simple as a declaration of eternal torment really is...

You can't even type out GOD. You are literally insane. A normal, sane, non-deluded adult should be able to read this pile of steaming religious vomit and see that. By every definition of the word you are insane.

Emphasis. Insanity.

Electibility is not a excuse in the kingdom of heaven.

Insane.

For those who really believe it is Murder, then if they do not vote for Ron PAul in the primary they are accessories to murder. They are in part responsible for each infant aborted from 2009 - on....

Insane.

Sounds like some serious purgatory for catholics and some "weeping and gnashing of teeth for protestants."

You require immediate hospitalization.



AGAIN ANYONE WHO CLAIMS ABORTION IS MURDER WILL BE IN PART A CO-DEFENDANT IN THE HEAVENLY MURDER TRIAL OF THESE CHILDREN..


And bingo. Of all the insurmountable proof of the rampant and unrelenting ignorance of fundamentalists, you, you are the shining glorification of all that is wrong with this world. Your mentality is the death of all people killed by tyranny, of all people put to death who railed against anything unjust. The blood of all those killed by the inquisition in on you, for reproducing the ignorance of our ancestors. You, with your shallow vitriol represent the stagnation of reason of mankind. Your life isn't lived for some imaginary god, no... No, no, you are fighting for your own glory, for your own immortality. Instead of working to make this world better for all people, you don't even worship, you pass judgment on all under the guise of being righteous. It is the GOD of punishment, and "I AM THE GREAT SNIVELING SIDEKICK". You worship the idea of immorality and you are afraid of not getting it... Read those words again. One day, before it is too late, perhaps your lasting legacy on this planet may come to some meaning... instead of being just another carcass of a person who used the fear of others to rant and rave themselves into a position of power.

You make me sick.

Roll on my friend, roll on. With all due respect (what little you may command) continue with your precious freedom of speech, just know, I am calling your shallow trite crap out, and honestly desire and wish for you would just shut the hell up.

 

[idiom]

The Israelites were specifically ordered not to seek a king because they were under the rule of law, God's law, and were administer it locally, and not look to man for justice. Also, they were not to look to man for their protection from other wicked nations, but to God himself. They also were not supposed to go about willy-nilly attacking other nation's or stationing troops all over the world and going into debt to do it. They were to live out the covenant God gave them and to be an example to the world.

1st Samuel 8 is what you're talking about. References can help. But you are right, God likes anarchy for the most part. He considers individual responsibility to be pretty much absolute.

10 And Samuel told all the words of Jehovah unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: he will take your sons, and appoint them unto him, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and they shall run before his chariots; 12 and he will appoint them unto him for captains of thousands, and captains of fifties; and [he will set some] to plow his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and the instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be perfumers, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your men-servants, and your maid-servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your flocks: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king whom ye shall have chosen you; and Jehovah will not answer you in that day.

Beyond that I find this quote:

One day I walked into an operating room, to just be an observant, which we would do generally, as a medical resident. They were performing this hysterectomy, which was a caesarean section. And they lifted out a fetus that weighted approximately 2 pounds, and it was breathing and crying. And it was put in a bucket and set in the corner of the room, and everybody in the room just pretended that they didn't hear it. And the baby died. And I walked out of that room a different person...

closes most arguments for 'mainstream' christians. No other candidate has serious passion about abortion either way. Any ad targeted at christians should have that on it somewheres.

 

[weatherbill]

I have this in my flyer.....PM me with your email addy to get it in full if you want it.

Christian alert! The CFR has taken a liking to Huckabee, since his neocon foreign policy fits into their one world government, globalization agenda. Ron Paul has always stood by the Christian doctrine of “just war”, not neocon pre-emptive war. Huckabee in bed with CFR agenda will only further antichrist globalization, a war economy no nation can continually afford! He is also known as taxhikemike.org from his days as governor of Arkansas. The CATO Institute gave him a D on fiscal policy, spending 3 X the rate of inflation as Gov. of Arkansas! Taxhikemike will not fight the Fed’s false balance of fiat and usury, which God calls an abomination (Prov 11:1),
So how can his Christianity apply? Is not faith without works dead? Especially when allowing the usury of the Fed to continue on?
There is no more an honest, principled, Christian man in DC than Ron Paul, with a 20 year congressional record to prove it!

 

[therealjjj77]

I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

The best one on the war issue I've heard is "Put away your sword, Peter."

On the other issues of personal liberty vs. legislated morality, I wrote a very biblical and historical approach to take. You can find it here:

http://www.mikehuckabeeforum.com/index.php?topic=179.0

Hope this helps!

 

[therealjjj77]

I have this in my flyer.....PM me with your email addy to get it in full if you want it.

Christian alert! The CFR has taken a liking to Huckabee, since his neocon foreign policy fits into their one world government, globalization agenda. Ron Paul has always stood by the Christian doctrine of “just war”, not neocon pre-emptive war. Huckabee in bed with CFR agenda will only further antichrist globalization, a war economy no nation can continually afford! He is also known as taxhikemike.org from his days as governor of Arkansas. The CATO Institute gave him a D on fiscal policy, spending 3 X the rate of inflation as Gov. of Arkansas! Taxhikemike will not fight the Fed’s false balance of fiat and usury, which God calls an abomination (Prov 11:1),
So how can his Christianity apply? Is not faith without works dead? Especially when allowing the usury of the Fed to continue on?
There is no more an honest, principled, Christian man in DC than Ron Paul, with a 20 year congressional record to prove it!

I like the Proverbs 11:1 reference:

"A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight."

Thank you!

 

[USMC_IZZY]

Sometimes when we try to convince people of our opinions we are essentially trying to prove them wrong and ourselves right. You might try to take the approach of instead explaining what your thought process was and how you arrived at your conclusion. What will happen is that the tone of the conversation will change to them trying to change your mind and allow you to rebut their points without putting them on the defensive. It's a little bit of reverse psychology. Try baiting the conversation, you mention your support for Ron Paul and leave it at that. Most people either don't know who Ron Paul is or feel strongly about/against him and so those who do won't be able to let it go.

The good thing about the established frames of thought is that it makes their arguments very predictable, so you can lead the debate by pre-empting their arguments. You can say to a conservative for example... "I used to think pulling out of Iraq made me weak on the war on terror until I realized that what I was objecting to was the strategy itself and not the war on terror as a principle." The key is let them believe that they are on the offensive and you on the defensive.

You also have to understand that alot of people have been arguing their position for the past five years and so they are emotionally invested in their position. It takes an enormous amount of humility to do an about-face and admit you've been wrong all along. This is why people get so angry and argumentative when they debate. Put in your two-cents and then give them space, dont expect to win an argument off the bat. Watch their eyes, I have noticed in debating many people that their eyes give away that they see your point but their pride makes them stubborn. As our movement gains steam, people will feel more willing and less shame in changing position. Understand, that most people dont have the courage of Ron Paul and stand alone. We have to choose who we debate wisely. We don't have a lot of time to waste and its best to talk to people who we know are open to new ideas. Also keep in mind that religious people value steadfastness, they tend to see everything as a test to their faith.

 

[sharedvoice]

I'm a Christian myself, so this is by no means an attack.

I think I tried too hard, or something...I'm so passionate that I looked angry. I tried to convert Christian friends, at least if anything to see how wrong this war is. Unfortunately, they associate my feelings with Ron's and it drove them away. They also thought I came across as thinking I was better than they are. UGH. So I am going to stop trying at least for now.

I am just wondering has anyone successfully talked sense into pro war Christians?

I was close to one of them, and I feel like I've lost her.

Here is my take on the situation,

The term Anti-war pacifist is a term frequently used to ostracize the few having the courage to speak out and question the irrationality of our foreign policy. One that has not only bankrupted our nation, but also left 5,000 Americans troops killed, countless civilians dead, and many others wounded, based on some preconceived notion that we should be the "policemen" of the world!! Horseshit!

Generally, those who support disastrous "stay the course" foriegn policy lack the basic understanding and knowledge of what war is really like, why it occurs, and how it feels to have other people angry enough to kill you.

It has been almost 7 years now since my first combat deployment, which was to Afghanistan with the 15th MEU (SOC) 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and 4 years now since my last second visit to Iraq. Since then nothing has changed, things continue to get progressively worse because of our “unwelcomed” military involvement in the region.

For years now we have been meddling in the affairs of other nations, propping up puppet dictatorships, getting into the business of nation-building, and promoting welfare dependency around the world.

We need to stop playing welfare Santa Claus with the entire world!

There are plenty of reasons, more than ever, as to why we should be minding our own business here at home. -- economy, health care, crime, illegal immigration, poverty, even homeless war veterans out on the streets. This is an OUTRAGE!

In theory, "National Security" should address every one of these important issues, yet, we continue to fight a so-called “War on Terror” and continue to pay the consequences here at home...

A price so great, that has even undermined our Constitution and compromised individual freedom and liberty.

If you do not think what I am saying is true, I suggest you take a close look at this.

A) Corrupt the young: get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.

B) Get control of all means of publicity. thereby:

• Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance.
• Destroy the people’s faith in their leaders by holding them up to contempt,ridicule and obliquity.
• Always preach true democracy, but, seize’ power as fast and as ruthlessly as possible.
• By encouraging government extravagance, destroy its credit,“produce fear of inflation with rising prices and general discontent.
• Foment unnecessary strikes in vital industries, encourage civil disorders and foster lenient and soft attitudes on the part of the government towards such disorders.
• By specious argument, cause the breakdown of the old moral virtues of honesty,sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word.

C) Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext with the view of confiscating them and leaving the population helpless.​

Sound familiar??? Google "Communist Rules for Revolution"

You may want to share the following links with your friends.

Why We Fight
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3405669348838274375

Zeitgeist: Part Three (Men Behind the Curtain)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__YFnUfYXZk

s/f

 

[goldenequity]

Dousing the Huckabee Fire

Here's a couple of things that might help in Iowa and elsewhere:

Ending the IRS: Huckabee vs. Ron Paul
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS3BxggBTa8

Chuck Baldwin just emailed out his latest bulletin concerning
his reasons, reluctance and warning to Christians embracing Mike Huckabee
found here:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071127.html

I condensed and edited his email into a tri-fold for Christian supporters to email out or print and hand out.

http://ronpaulaudio.com/flyers/huckabeecolor.pdf

Vote Mike Huckabee, a former Pastor!

That's about all most Christians know.

They NEED to have a REASON to reject Mike Huckabee and move on to Ron Paul.
They are not hearing it from the pulpit. They're not hearing it from the media.
How are they going to hear it?

There is no such thing as "The Evangelical Endorsement" in the 2008 election.
The "Christian" vote is up for grabs..... and it is a HUGE Republican voting block.

I know, I know...... I don't like "negative" campaigning either...... but how about if we file this flyer under "critical thinking"???
This is pretty factual, persuasive stuff (imo).