Stef Molyneux's Critique on Zeitgeist: Moving Forward

[ClayTrainor]

Good argument. They'll probably say 'science', but I'm not sure that science can obtain the true value of something.

Even the scientific method by it's very nature is competitive. The idea is to test competing theories to see which one fits best with the evidence...

If there is no competition on scientific theories, doesn't that just mean we already know all the right answers in science?

They want to do it through a consciousness revolution.

I support a conscious revolution that rejects coercion... but competition???? I just can't understand why they'd want to get rid such a thing, int he first place... to be perfectly honest. Competition is a beautiful thing, which almost always leads to progress and a further understanding of the world around us, so long as coercion is absent from it.

 

[Fredom101]

Did he actually attack PJ? As I remember it, he was attacking the ideas as being retarded, not any person in particular. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Either way, he could've articulated that in a bit more respectful manner for sure. It definitely did give them an excuse to just write off his valid arguments without thinking about them.

I'd have to go back and watch again, but I think Stef was saying things like "you'd have to be retarded to believe that", which is an ad hominem. I appreciate Stef's vast work but he can get into attack mode sometimes and it doesn't serve him.

 

[ClayTrainor]

I'd have to go back and watch again, but I think Stef was saying things like "you'd have to be retarded to believe that", which is an ad hominem. I appreciate Stef's vast work but he can get into attack mode sometimes and it doesn't serve him.

Yea, I agree. I'm guilty of the same kind of behavior myself at times, and need to make a sincere conscious effort to correct it.

 

[dannno]

Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?

 

[Flash]

Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?

Not sure of the clip but he talks about this for an entire chapter in Practical Anarchy on his site.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Does anybody remember the clip of Stef that was posted fairly recently where he talks about how it wouldn't be beneficial for corporations to create their own armies to oppress their competition because they would have to raise their prices to invest in the armies and it would make people upset at the corporation itself and they would stop supporting them?

It's discussed in this interview at some point.. can't remember exactly when. This might be a worthwhile one to get your room mate to watch. Cveitch comes from the a sort of anarcho-communist/syndicalist/socialist/whatever school of thought, I believe, but is really open minded to alternative arguments and asks really really good questions.

 

[dannno]

It's discussed in this interview at some point.. can't remember exactly when. This might be a worthwhile one to get your room mate to watch. Cveitch comes from the a sort of anarcho-communist/syndicalist/socialist/whatever school of thought, I believe, but is really open minded to alternative arguments and asks really really good questions.

Wow, ya, that's the one.. I actually wanted my roommate to watch this as he became enthralled with the Love Police guy a couple weeks ago and posted it on his facebook.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Here's peter joseph's response to stefan's critique of the movie. I can only hope that this triggers a live conversation between these 2.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Here's peter joseph's response to stefan's critique of the movie. I can only hope that this triggers a live conversation between these 2.

His fundamental premise (that a "poor person" is "trapped by the system" of the free market) is fundamentally flawed. In a free market, a person can CREATE his own prosperity by innovating and creating products/services from scratch to meet market demand. (plus, there hasn't been a truly free market in many generations) I only watched the intro, but I can see that from this false premise he will only end up in complete FAIL by the end of the vid. Thanks for posting, tho.

 

[Vessol]

"This is a global movement, there is no isolation...We WILL have an economic system based on tangible resources and not monetary systems..the paradigm is over..you just wait and see...this system is a self-mutating cancer and it's time the immune system stands up to take it down"

Sounds like he pretty much threw the idea of this being a voluntary peaceful movement out the fucking window right quick. They'll have their Zeitgeist society, with the point of a gun pointed at our heads if we refuse.

I only skimmed the last part. He attacks Stefan for calling the Zeitgeist movement Marxist, but he never refutes how the Zeitgeist movement isn't Marxist. It's central planning, no matter how you cut it, that's Marxism.

 

[ClayTrainor]

The amount of ad-hominem personal attacks against Stefan in the comments section is staggering.

 

[Mach]

bump

 

[Romulus]

I agree with Stef 100%. There are some positives in ZG (the first part about science and human behavior) but after that it is largely a bogus concept.

If ZG 3 thinks their model would be a utopia then is based on 100% perfection of a human. Our behavior can not be perfected, so their theory isn't based on reality.

Someone needs to splice together the truths of ZG. That is the first movie, part I of ZG2 and part I of ZG3. Then you'd have a solid winner.

 

[dannno]

His fundamental premise (that a "poor person" is "trapped by the system" of the free market) is fundamentally flawed. In a free market, a person can CREATE his own prosperity by innovating and creating products/services from scratch to meet market demand. (plus, there hasn't been a truly free market in many generations) I only watched the intro, but I can see that from this false premise he will only end up in complete FAIL by the end of the vid. Thanks for posting, tho.

Ugh.. my roommate put up this response and within a couple minutes I was explaining the exact same thing, and how they are talking past each other because third world countries with central banks where the elite have taken all the property from the indigenous and forced them to move into debt slavery in impoverished areas are NOT free markets..

So my roommate ended up watching the rest later and said he destroyed Stefan.. I have a feeling he may have done so by saying more things that are just untrue, like the first couple minutes, so I'll have to go back and watch it I guess..

If anybody else has critiques on things he says later on, feel free to post them up and help me out.

 

[NiceGoing]

Very interesting points - thanks!

 

[Ricky201]

I had a employer who I discuss politics with and we debate quite a bit regarding the ideas put through on Zeitgeist. I have only watched parts of the film and he has told me about the Venus Project and the idea of a resource based economy. My main thing I asked him was "how are they going to enforce something like this if a willing participant isn't so willing to give certain fruits of his labor?", and he still hasn't given me an answer. I ended up giving him an article written by Rothbard about Anarcho-Marxism which is what I identify the the Venus Project with. He was fairly upset with my analysis so I back tracked and thought well maybe this isn't what Zeitgeist hopes to accomplish. However, after viewing this review I am reassured that my first assumption was right and that Zeitgeist promotes a complete contradictory society which is Anarcho-Marxism.

 

[Romulus]

I had a employer who I discuss politics with and we debate quite a bit regarding the ideas put through on Zeitgeist. I have only watched parts of the film and he has told me about the Venus Project and the idea of a resource based economy. My main thing I asked him was "how are they going to enforce something like this if a willing participant isn't so willing to give certain fruits of his labor?", and he still hasn't given me an answer. I ended up giving him an article written by Rothbard about Anarcho-Marxism which is what I identify the the Venus Project with. He was fairly upset with my analysis so I back tracked and thought well maybe this isn't what Zeitgeist hopes to accomplish. However, after viewing this review I am reassured that my first assumption was right and that Zeitgeist promotes a complete contradictory society which is Anarcho-Marxism.

And peter joesphs repsonse would be to just laugh and call you someone who calls everything "Marxist" with no rebuttal on why his flavor of central planning is NOT Marxism.

His response to Stef is pretty weak.. I could barely skim over it.

 

[EndDaFed]

And peter joesphs repsonse would be to just laugh and call you someone who calls everything "Marxist" with no rebuttal on why his flavor of central planning is NOT Marxism.

His response to Stef is pretty weak.. I could barely skim over it.

It's stupid. It's like saying to someone to prove they are not a secret supporter of Hitler. You can't prove a negative and it's just a sophisticated method of name calling. Stef should know better.

 

[ClayTrainor]

It's stupid. It's like saying to someone to prove they are not a secret supporter of Hitler. You can't prove a negative and it's just a sophisticated method of name calling. Stef should know better.

No it's actually logical, based on the words of marx himself.

“The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property”. Karl Marx

Yea... TZM shouldn't have to address this criticism at all. It's soo stupid. Stef should know better than to apply basic logic and reason to his arguments.

It's not name calling, it's a legitime critique. Peter Joseph should address the REASONS as to why TZM is different than marx's theory, not just laugh it off with sarcastic comments, and call it stupid.

 

[Vessol]

It's stupid. It's like saying to someone to prove they are not a secret supporter of Hitler. You can't prove a negative and it's just a sophisticated method of name calling. Stef should know better.

Marxism=Central Planning. There's no way around that.