SPLIT: Religious discussion from Glenn Beck Thread

[Stary Hickory]

Point is that Beck is not leading some evangelical Christian movement. I'm not trying to start a religious discussion. The OP claimed that Beck's event was an evangelical event, which is false.

Nope actually I didn'y say that. It reminded me of it. I can only subjectively classify it as I see it. It was "churchy" for sure. Telling people to get on their knees and pray. to serve and so on. I went to church for long enough to know when something is heavily religious or not thank you very much.

And I did only get there by about 11:45 or so, so I got to hear only Beck give his sermon.

 

[Mini-Me]

Nope actually I didn'y say that. It reminded me of it. I can only subjectively classify it as I see it. It was "churchy" for sure. Telling people to get on their knees and pray. to serve and so on. I went to church for long enough to know when something is heavily religious or not thank you very much.

And I did only get there by about 11:45 or so, so I got to hear only Beck give his sermon.

I pity the fool that stood there (knelt there) all day.

 

[nate895]

There is no logical debate to have. You believe in a God that you have no proof of, period. You don't know that the bible was inspired or written by God.

I'm not going to have a religious debate here. I've done it hundreds of times before and it never changes anyone's mind. The human mind is capable of compartmentalizing absurd beliefs. It's what I did. It's what you do. You're fully capable of looking at, say, Islam, or Scientology, and easily identifying them as a crock. You won't take that same objective look at your own religion, because you're worried about going to Hell. Until you decide to take a step back, and analyze your own beliefs, you'll keep stubbornly creating justifications for a religion that cannot be justified.

Just a heads up, by the way, atheism isn't a belief system. Atheism doesn't require any me to take anything on faith. It just means I don't believe in God. You were born an atheist. We all were. It was only when you were indoctrinated as a child, or perhaps as an adult, that you became a theist. Atheism is the default position, and it's not an absolute claim.

Just as I suspected. You don't want to debate about the ultimate authority because you think you are it and anyone who challenges that is irrational. You take more by faith than I do when you wakeup in the morning and assume for no good reason that your eyes see what is there, your ears hear noises correctly, and your memory is generally reliable. I have a reason to believe all of those things. I have a reason to believe everything necessary for life via one axiom, that of the truth of the Gospel. You have to assume more than that to type your post on the internet. Via Ockham's Razor, Christianity is the correct belief.

 

[low preference guy]

Via Ockham's Razor, Christianity is the correct belief.

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sratiug]

I wonder why Jesus didn't write a book and cut out the middle men? God is within you, not in a book written by men. Religions are doomed to corruption and to fight each other for all time, which is why I believe his main purpose was not to start a religion, but to end religion. Religion is to spirituality what a federal reserve note is to money, a poor and inherently evil substitute.

 

[nate895]

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you ever post anything of value?

 

[Matt Collins]

Lew Rockwell RIPS APART the Beck / Palin rally!

SHEESH!!



This guy pulls no punches:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/64493.html[url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/64493.html[/URL]

 

[LDA]

Not to nitpick, but I'm going to nitpick:
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say we were all born agnostic, since simply "not knowing" is more of a default position?

It does depend on how you define atheism though. Nonbelief in God/gods is different from a specific belief in the nonexistence of God/gods.

I'm an agnostic and an atheist. Some people define atheism as the absolute claim that there are no gods, but that makes no sense to me. I don't know if there are gods. There could be. They haven't shown themselves to me, but they could exist. There are many things in the universe that exist that I have no knowledge of, and it would be dumb to say, without a doubt, that something does not exist.

But, to make the claim that something does exist, shifts the burden of proof to the person making the claim. If I say that there are aliens, you'd ask for proof. If I can't provide any proof, then you'd say, well, your claim is unsupported. That's how everything else in the world works.

 

[low preference guy]

mods, it's about time this thread is moved to religion to be with all the other crap threads on that forum.

 

[YumYum]

The Catholic Gospel involves all sorts of blasphemous sacrifices called the "Mass" or "Communion." That is totally different from the Gospel of the writer of Hebrews, where Christ's one-time sacrifice at Calvary is good enough on its own to perfect His people through the work of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to the Old Testament sacrifices which never perfected the people for whom it was made. The same is true of the modern day Mass in Roman Catholic dogma. So, if Roman Catholicism is true, then the writer of the Hebrews was making an illogical argument. Since Hebrews cannot be making an illogical argument, Roman Catholicism must be a false gospel.

Again, Jesus commanded that we are not to judge. How do we know what Jesus sees in people's hearts? You must remember also that Jesus said "narrow and cramped" is the road leading to everlasting life and "few are the ones finding it". In fact, the majority of Christians are condemned according to Christ, so thinking that an entire religion is true or false is erroneous, since Jesus judges each individual's heart.

 

[nate895]

Again, Jesus commanded that we are not to judge. How do we know what Jesus sees in people's hearts? You must remember also that Jesus said "narrow and cramped" is the road leading to everlasting life and "few are the ones finding it". In fact, the majority of Christians are condemned according to Christ, so thinking that an entire religion is true or false is erroneous, since Jesus judges each individual's heart.

Does anyone read the context anymore? Christ said do not judge, lest you be judged likewise. Christ was saying not to say someone else is condemned for doing something you do yourself.

 

[Mini-Me]

Just as I suspected. You don't want to debate about the ultimate authority because you think you are it and anyone who challenges that is irrational. You take more by faith than I do when you wakeup in the morning and assume for no good reason that your eyes see what is there, your ears hear noises correctly, and your memory is generally reliable. I have a reason to believe all of those things. I have a reason to believe everything necessary for life via one axiom, that of the truth of the Gospel. You have to assume more than that to type your post on the internet. Via Ockham's Razor, Christianity is the correct belief.

The first day you read the Bible or heard the Bible, you initially relied on your sight and hearing to perceive it. Your very knowledge of the Bible itself was filtered through those same senses that you no longer trust in the absence of Christianity to reaffirm your faith in them. It was only after the fact that you supplanted your senses with the Bible as your fundamental source of truth...so really, your worldview does assume more than LDA's. You can always argue that we are naturally led to the truth, and the truth is the Bible, etc., but that's yet another faith-based assumption (and if it comes from an interpretation of the Bible itself, it's a circular assumption in particular).

I would agree that everyone makes some assumptions on faith, but it should be plainly obvious that a religious person has taken an extra leap of faith beyond a non-religious person. Just because you have now determined that your belief in the Bible is more fundamental than your belief in your senses, does not actually undo the fact that you first had to trust your senses to trust your perception of the Bible. From start to finish, your ending position still required at least one more sequential leap of layered faith than LDA's.

I'm not saying unequivocally that your beliefs are wrong (even though I disagree with them), but you can't really deny that your senses and reasoning came before your Christianity (even if you now use that to explain and justify them).

 

[Mini-Me]

I'm an agnostic and an atheist. Some people define atheism as the absolute claim that there are no gods, but that makes no sense to me. I don't know if there are gods. There could be. They haven't shown themselves to me, but they could exist. There are many things in the universe that exist that I have no knowledge of, and it would be dumb to say, without a doubt, that something does not exist.

But, to make the claim that something does exist, shifts the burden of proof to the person making the claim. If I say that there are aliens, you'd ask for proof. If I can't provide any proof, then you'd say, well, your claim is unsupported. That's how everything else in the world works.

That's a pretty sensible view to me. I don't really "get" the hardliners on either side of the fence. To reference a favorite analogy among atheists: I don't believe in invisible flying pink unicorns, and I highly doubt their existence, but out of all the infinite possible fantastical creatures, I imagine it's pretty likely that at least one kind of fantastical creature may exist somewhere.

 

[Kotin]

This is s split from the glen beck rally thread.. Stop derailing guys!

 

[YumYum]

Does anyone read the context anymore? Christ said do not judge, lest you be judged likewise. Christ was saying not to say someone else is condemned for doing something you do yourself.

"Moreover, stop judging, and you will by no means be judged, and stop condemning, and you will by no means be condemned." (Luke 6:37)

No, its pretty straight forward here. We are not to judge. If we are supposed to go around judging people, why is there going to be The Great Day of Judgment where Christ and the 144,000 are going to judge mankind? He judges, we don't, unless we want to be judged, and not forgiven for our sins.

So, you really want to be a judge?

 

[BlackSand]

Definitely should be moved to religion.

I strongly resent when someone calls someone who believes in the bible and in Christ "not a Christian." It's a clearly ridiculous claim. Mormons are Christians. I am one. I believe in Christ. I believe in the old and new testaments. The Nicene Creed isnt the definition of Christian. Its a balance of Greek philosophy and whats in the bible. IMHO, The Nicene Creed isnt scripture. And shouldnt be taken as such. But thats just my opinion, and I know others will disagree. Doesnt mean I say theyre not christian.

As far as this whole judging debate. It's kind of a tough issue. I say just keep your judging to yourself, and give everyone the benefit of a doubt. And then discuss it if it seems appropriate. Theres no need to say to everyone you come across "Youre going to hell. Repent now." Or "Youre not a Christian" just because beliefs differ.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Definitely should be moved to religion.

I strongly resent when someone calls someone who believes in the bible and in Christ "not a Christian." It's a clearly ridiculous claim. Mormons are Christians. I am one. I believe in Christ. I believe in the old and new testaments. The Nicene Creed isnt the definition of Christian. Its a balance of Greek philosophy and whats in the bible. IMHO, The Nicene Creed isnt scripture. And shouldnt be taken as such. But thats just my opinion, and I know others will disagree. Doesnt mean I say theyre not christian.

As far as this whole judging debate. It's kind of a tough issue. I say just keep your judging to yourself, and give everyone the benefit of a doubt. And then discuss it if it seems appropriate. Theres no need to say to everyone you come across "Youre going to hell. Repent now." Or "Youre not a Christian" just because beliefs differ.

Indeed. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" is one of the best parts of scripture.

 

[BlackSand]

Yes. I think trying to understand is much better than judging. One of my favorite quotes

"I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves."

And...

...But when it comes to human beings, the only type of cause that matters is final cause, the purpose. What a person had in mind. Once you understand what people really want, you can't hate them anymore. You can fear them, but you can't hate them, because you can always find the same desires in your own heart."

Same principle. At some point you realize you can never be a just judge. And you just have to love people for who they are.

And yes. I know thats the corniest philosophy there is. But I love corny philosophy. It has the most truth.

 

[reillym]

Just as I suspected. You don't want to debate about the ultimate authority because you think you are it and anyone who challenges that is irrational. You take more by faith than I do when you wakeup in the morning and assume for no good reason that your eyes see what is there, your ears hear noises correctly, and your memory is generally reliable. I have a reason to believe all of those things. I have a reason to believe everything necessary for life via one axiom, that of the truth of the Gospel. You have to assume more than that to type your post on the internet. Via Ockham's Razor, Christianity is the correct belief.

Just because you need a crutch to wake up in the morning to get through the day doesn't prove anything. My eyes see what is there because they evolved to do so, and the science that says that also probably played a large part in you being born, fed, and nurtured so you could type your post on the internet.

Reason always wins. Always.

And you have no idea what Ockham's Razor is.

 

[erowe1]

I'm not saying unequivocally that your beliefs are wrong (even though I disagree with them), but you can't really deny that your senses and reasoning came before your Christianity (even if you now use that to explain and justify them).

They came before his Christianity. But they did not come before his being created in the image of the God of Christianity. So Christianity (the abstract system of truth itself, not his experience of it) gave the universe coherence for him before he even knew it.

The reason we can trust our senses, our memories, the laws of logic, the laws of mathematics, the correspondence theory of truth, and so on, is because this is an orderly universe, created by an orderly creator, who has revealed himself to us in various ways, chief of which is through his son, Jesus Christ.