(split from FW thread) Abortion Debate

Your comparison is illegitimate. If real estate had rights like individual human persons, you might have a point. But property does not only not have rights, it is that which can rightfully be OWNED (certainly CAN NOT have rights).

You've mostly sumarized Walter Block's abortion argument:
http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block-whitehead_abortion-2005.pdf

It addresses the answer above about "how far out of the body." Block argues that an unborn child is a unique human WITH RIGHTS. However, the mother's rights to her own body must not be infringed: she must have the right to evict the "trespasser." If the trespasser cannot survive the eviction process, then that is not a liability of the mother. Thus, he argues for allowing abortions before babies reach an age of viability. After that point, any desire to evict must be made with an attempt to save the child's life.

I'm not sold on the argument ... but I think it makes a far better starting point for discussion.
 
Your comparison is illegitimate. If real estate had rights like individual human persons, you might have a point. But property does not only not have rights, it is that which can rightfully be OWNED (certainly CAN NOT have rights).
No your whole occupying the same space argument is illegitimate.
 
Some of that applies to ants as mush as dolphins. I'd eat dolphin before I eat ants.


Making the case for 'whale rights'

-By Rob Reynolds


The International Whaling Commission (IWC) has convened in Morocco for a five-day meeting that is expected to lift a 24-year-old ban on whaling.

The ban was imposed after many species were hunted nearly to extinction.

The move to resume legal whale hunts comes as scientists and conservationists say new evidence shows whale intelligence is in many ways as sophisticated as that of humans.

Whale rights

For decades, opponents of whale hunting have used several arguments to push for a total ban on killing the creatures - saying that they are too rare and endangered, or simply too beautiful.

Now scientists and ethicists are advancing a new argument: Whales, they say, should be accorded legal rights, just like people.

Tom White is a professor of ethics at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles and a long-time advocate for whale and dolphin preservation.

"The most important right that would be involved is the right not to be killed, and the right not to be owned as a piece of property," he says.

When humans consider whales and dolphins, he says, they must realise that "there is a who there, not a what. This isn't an object, this is a being; this is a person, not property".

Scientific research steadily accumulated over the past 30 years shows that whales are self-aware, can solve complex problems, communicate with each other on a sophisticated level, and even show grief at the loss of offspring or a close companion.

Whales, many scientists say, have a culture all of their own.

Richard Ellis is a whale expert from the American Museum of Natural History in New York. He says: "There is no question that cetaceans - that is, whales and dolphins - certainly have the highest level of intelligence of any mammals on earth, probably higher than human beings, although [it is] very, very difficult to measure it
."


In May, an international gathering of scientists in Helsinki, Finland, issued a declaration calling for non-human rights for cetaceans.



'Ethically untenable'

Japan, Norway and Iceland are the only remaining countries that hunt whales commercially and the IWC is now expected to approve limited numbers of whale kills over the next ten years.

But countries including Brazil, New Zealand and the UK say they will fight the plan to lift the 24-year-old ban.

When it was introduced, the ban was championed by Ronald Reagan, the then US president. But now, conservationists are outraged at Barack Obama, the current US president, for breaking his campaign promise to end whale hunting.

Instead, the Obama administration is leading the effort to lift the ban, allowing countries once more to legally slaughter whales.

"What I find especially disappointing," White says, "is that he is not looking at the most important scientific data. His position is ethically untenable in the face of the scientific data."

The US administration says the deal will actually spare thousands of whales by preventing the three whale hunting countries from cheating on quotas and exploiting legal loopholes. Japan kills thousands of whales each year in the name of so-called scientific research.

But conservationists do not buy that argument. They say enough is now known about the creatures to make whale killing as morally abhorrent as murder.

Ellis says: "It's as if a spaceship came down to earth and some strange looking creatures popped out, and we took a look and said those are really weird creatures, we can't communicate with them, I know, let's kill them and eat them. And that's what we've done."

It is quite obvious that whales and dolphins far exceed the knowledge and abilities (and independent life) of a fetus. Would you eat a fetus?


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/06/20106221125759162.html
 
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It is quite obvious that whales and dolphins far exceed the knowledge and abilities (and independent life) of a fetus. Would you eat a fetus?


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/06/20106221125759162.html

Nope. My reasoning - a human fetus is ... human! BTW, have you read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal."

I also would not eat a particularly stupid human or handicapped human that lacks certain levels knowledge and abilities. It's not the brain power for me but avoiding cannibalism.

I could consider eating a whale fetus or a cow fetus.

To be consistent ... if somebody performs an abortion on a pregnant whale, I would consider that the killing of a baby whale ... not some hypothetical potential of being a whale.

EDIT ADD: and another thing ... I seriously doubt an hungry lion would not eat me simply because I'm (hopefully) more intelligent than it.
 
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Obviously, growth potential is not a factor in determining personhood or you would be arguing against the killing of any human sperms or eggs, against birth control, and against sterilization and abstinence.

:rolleyes: Do you sing to your sperm? Do men cry in the morning after having nocturnal emmissions? If you put your sperm in a petri dish will it subdivide and grow on its own? Do medical doctors have books in their offices to give to men how "miscarry" sperm telling them that "What you've really lost is 1 million babies"? No? Then you honestly do not have a point! The medical community treats a fetus as a "baby" if it dies of natural causes and as a "mass of cells" if it's killed on purpose.
 
You've mostly sumarized Walter Block's abortion argument:
http://www.walterblock.com/wp-content/uploads/publications/block-whitehead_abortion-2005.pdf

It addresses the answer above about "how far out of the body." Block argues that an unborn child is a unique human WITH RIGHTS. However, the mother's rights to her own body must not be infringed: she must have the right to evict the "trespasser." If the trespasser cannot survive the eviction process, then that is not a liability of the mother. Thus, he argues for allowing abortions before babies reach an age of viability. After that point, any desire to evict must be made with an attempt to save the child's life.

I'm not sold on the argument ... but I think it makes a far better starting point for discussion.

Thanks for the summary of the 46-page report. I like it. Never heard of the guy and no time to read it now, but it sounds reasonable enough. I mean we could argue over how two conflicting rights can coexist, but I’m not sure it would be meaningful. I mean “abortion” doesn’t actually REQUIRE the death of the unborn, only the removal; and if “trespassing” is a good analogy, it is true that the trespasser still retains the right to not be shot for merely trespassing. So as long as an attempt to save the life of the late-term fetus is all that is required to recognize the supreme rights of the mother, I can’t imagine that would be a problem – unless the attempt to save the fetus included an extra risk to the mother.

Now…how do we determine the exact point of “viability”?
 
It is quite obvious that whales and dolphins far exceed the knowledge and abilities (and independent life) of a fetus. Would you eat a fetus?


http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/06/20106221125759162.html

Let me guess. This article was dictated by a whale to Jim Nollman right?

Anyway, your proof that whales are more intelligent than humans is that whales can understand human but humans can't understand whales. Well there is research that suggests a fetus can understand and react to stimulation from the world around it. In fact modern research suggests a fetus can even recognize its father's voice! Now using your logic that because whales can "understand" people but people can't "understand" whales (and I've already shown that's not necessarily true), whales must be smarter than people, does the fact that a fetus can recognize an adults voice but the adult can't recognize the fetus voice mean the fetus is smarter? Oh and don't give me that "But the fetus can't talk" argument! Whales can only click and whistle, but they are supposedly the superior intellect. And what about all of the other animals that can react to human language but people can't understand?
 
:rolleyes: Do you sing to your sperm? Do men cry in the morning after having nocturnal emmissions? If you put your sperm in a petri dish will it subdivide and grow on its own? Do medical doctors have books in their offices to give to men how "miscarry" sperm telling them that "What you've really lost is 1 million babies"? No? Then you honestly do not have a point! The medical community treats a fetus as a "baby" if it dies of natural causes and as a "mass of cells" if it's killed on purpose.

Are you operating on principle? If so, why make inconsistent remarks? For example, why imply that singing to something or crying over something gives it rights, when you surely know that plenty of other examples will readily defeat your point?
 
Are you operating on principle? If so, why make inconsistent remarks? For example, why imply that singing to something or crying over something gives it rights, when you surely know that plenty of other examples will readily defeat your point?

:rolleyes:

The singing point is that the scientific community recognizes the benefit of singing to babies in utero. There is nothing inconsistent about me pointing that out.

The crying point is that just about every human on the planet recognizes a miscarriage as a real loss. Nobody that I know of recognizes nocturnal emissions as a real loss. Not even the most strident anti birth control Catholic takes the position you are trying to assert.

So no. There are not "plenty of other examples" to "defeat my point". And right now you haven't even really asserted a point. You tried to imply a fetus is like "cancer". Try backing that up with scientific literature as I have backed up my point about singing to babies in utero.
 
The medical community treats a fetus as a "baby" if it dies of natural causes and as a "mass of cells" if it's killed on purpose.

I seem to recall Ron Paul pointing out the inconsistency that on one floor of a medical office building a doctor can be sued for injuring an unborn child while on another floor another doctor can be collecting fees for chopping up the unborn child and putting it in the trash.
 
:rolleyes:

The singing point is that the scientific community recognizes the benefit of singing to babies in utero. There is nothing inconsistent about me pointing that out.

The crying point is that just about every human on the planet recognizes a miscarriage as a real loss. Nobody that I know of recognizes nocturnal emissions as a real loss. Not even the most strident anti birth control Catholic takes the position you are trying to assert.

So no. There are not "plenty of other examples" to "defeat my point". And right now you haven't even really asserted a point. You tried to imply a fetus is like "cancer". Try backing that up with scientific literature as I have backed up my point about singing to babies in utero.

I'm going to have to stand up for idertify on this one - since it's my fault our banter went astray. While I think the "cancer" line was not a good choice - he was trying to refute a point that I made - back when I misdirected a response to him. His argument was about rights. idertify never directly challenged (in this thread that I can find) the human essence of the unborn child.

A law does not establish rights, or support your argument..

Since born twins each have rights, uniqueness does not qualify as a determining criterion for assessing rights. Cancerous tumors may also be “unique”, but they certainly have no rights.
 
I seem to recall Ron Paul pointing out the inconsistency that on one floor of a medical office building a doctor can be sued for injuring an unborn child while on another floor another doctor can be collecting fees for chopping up the unborn child and putting it in the trash.

Our laws are quite illogical, probably why I have no respect for law.
 
:rolleyes:

The singing point is that the scientific community recognizes the benefit of singing to babies in utero. There is nothing inconsistent about me pointing that out.

The crying point is that just about every human on the planet recognizes a miscarriage as a real loss. Nobody that I know of recognizes nocturnal emissions as a real loss. Not even the most strident anti birth control Catholic takes the position you are trying to assert.

So no. There are not "plenty of other examples" to "defeat my point". And right now you haven't even really asserted a point. You tried to imply a fetus is like "cancer". Try backing that up with scientific literature as I have backed up my point about singing to babies in utero.

So since science proves that singing can benefit the fetus, then abortion should be illegal? And so since more people cry about the loss of a miscarriage than a nocturnal emission, then a fetus is an individual person with rights? Are those what you call principled and consistent points? They look way more like gigantic non-sequiturs to me.

Then you claim there are no other examples to defeat your earlier point. OK, you asked for it… People sing to their plants and pets. That does not mean plants or pets have rights. People cry over their pets, homes, and money. That does not mean pets or houses or dollar bills have rights.
 
Another Legal Inconsistency

I seem to recall Ron Paul pointing out the inconsistency that on one floor of a medical office building a doctor can be sued for injuring an unborn child while on another floor another doctor can be collecting fees for chopping up the unborn child and putting it in the trash.

Not only that, most states (if not all) have laws against killing pregnant women, labeling them as double homicides. Deep down inside, our legislators and judges know that a fetus has personhood, and a woman's choice to keep her unborn baby should not be the deciding factor that makes it a human being with legal rights.
 
:rolleyes: And there you have the irrationality of the pro-choice side. I respond to one pro-choice person who says "If pro lifers are really against abortion they should go try to talk women trying to have abortions into giving the baby up for adoption" by pointing out that you can't legally do that and I get this nonsense "bullcrap" attack from a different pro-choicer. I stand by what I said earlier. If you think the unborn are individuals then being pro-life is consistent with being a libertarian. If you are pro-choice then you have rejected the individuality of the unborn. That's certainly your "choice". But what is "bullcrap" is when you can't see the other side of the argument. And "most protests at abortion clinics end in a doctor being killed" IS JUST LEFT-WING LIBERAL LIES! That's NO DIFFERENT THEN NEOCONS CALLING ALL RON PAUL SUPPORTERS TERRORISTS! This movement is better than that.

This is what you said:

Pro life people actually try to do that. But the federal government has passed laws making it illegal to try to talk to women headed to an abortion clinic once they have gotten outside the "free speech zone". Yes the "right" to an abortion which is not in the constitution actually trumps the first amendment these days.

I said bullcrap to the bolded comment. It was pretty clear what I was addressing. If I am understanding your argument correctly, you think people should be able to pester people at abortion clinics. I disagree, and stated my reasons. It's rude and potentially harmful to the woman and baby. It's fine to disagree with the law of abortion, but it is another think to stand at a clinic and yell at innocent women. And yes, they are innocent, whether you agree or not, because that's what the law says. Period. My problem with this discussion is focusing on the individual women. If you want fewer abortions, there are better ways to accomplish that. Stupid ideas, like protests at clinics and trying to "ban" abortion will always fail. Chile banned abortion and look at the disaster that is. And yet a large portion of the right wants to do just that.

And abortion doctors do practice in fear. Right wing talking heads have openly called for their murder. Protests at clinics just stokes the fire.
 
Not only that, most states (if not all) have laws against killing pregnant women, labeling them as double homicides. Deep down inside, our legislators and judges know that a fetus has personhood, and a woman's choice to keep her unborn baby should not be the deciding factor for making it a human being.

So it should be the choice of bureaucrats that a woman should sacrifice her body and health for the better portion of a year? That's just big government and big spending.

Just because an existing law says killing a pregnant woman is a double homicide means nothing. The only thing that could possible mean is that our law code is inconsistent, not that our legislators agree with your point of view.
 
Civil Crimes Deserve Civil Punishments

So it should be the choice of bureaucrats that a woman should sacrifice her body and health for the better portion of a year? That's just big government and big spending.

Just because an existing law says killing a pregnant woman is a double homicide means nothing. The only thing that could possible mean is that our law code is inconsistent, not that our legislators agree with your point of view.

No. It should not be the choice of bureaucrats to decide for a woman to keep her baby. It is the role of the civil government to bring to justice anyone who takes the life of an innocent human being, which the unborn fetus most certainly is.
 
So since science proves that singing can benefit the fetus, then abortion should be illegal? And so since more people cry about the loss of a miscarriage than a nocturnal emission, then a fetus is an individual person with rights? Are those what you call principled and consistent points? They look way more like gigantic non-sequiturs to me.

Then you claim there are no other examples to defeat your earlier point. OK, you asked for it… People sing to their plants and pets. That does not mean plants or pets have rights. People cry over their pets, homes, and money. That does not mean pets or houses or dollar bills have rights.

Science proves that a fetus isn't merely a "clump of cells" or a "glop of sperm". You get more out of singing to your plants also than from singing to cancer or singing to sperm. The gigantic "non-sequitur" is your lame attempt at comparing babies to cancer. Also there's no evidence of plants recognizing their owner's voice. Lastly, a dog will never grow up to be human. The only difference between a fetus and a baby is a few centimeters of human tissue.
 
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