Spanking

[Dr.3D]

Do you really think that if cops did not give tickets for running red lights, you would personally start running them every chance you had?

Well, actually, in the middle of the night, when there is hardly any traffic and the light is red, I will sometimes stop and look both ways and then proceed before waiting for the light to change. I'm sure if there was no consequences for doing this in the middle of the daytime, people would be doing it a lot. The traffic light has no authority to tell me to stop and wait till it turns green. It is just a stupid automated device we have been told to obey. So yes, I am one of those ass holes who would run the occasional red light.

You seem to misunderstand the point of what I was saying about police authority and breaking the law. I did not imply it was okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught. What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined.

Let's just look at it this way. If a police officer were to be standing on the corner with a whistle and he blew it whenever a car went through a red light, how much effect would it have on the behavior of the drivers who were running the lights? But if instead of just blowing a whistle, the officer writes tickets, people have a tendency to pay much more attention to red lights. This is why the police have the authority to write tickets rather than just pulling someone over and trying to reason with them. The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".

I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation. This is obvious as we watch the decline of morality in our society that has been happening since dicipline was first taken out of the school system and then out of the home.

 

[Working Poor]

I believe in discipline. I just don't believe children have to be hit in order for them to learn to discipline their selves.

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.

I try to obey the laws not because of the threat of punishment but because it sets a good example for my children and I want my life to be as free as it can be and there is freedom in living with in the law.

 

[Dr.3D]

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.

I really doubt people believe their children to be bad, but rather uneducated and inexperienced.
It has been proven time and again, the nerves in the butt are very well connected to the memory processes in the brain.

Before the age of say perhaps 5, a child doesn't really function very well when it comes to logic. I have found when trying to use logic with a child of 4 years age, it is much like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. Just try to discuss the concept of age with a child of 4 and you will find they don't understand it at all. They will often say they are older than you are.

 

[asimplegirl]

It really disturbs me that people think of their children as bad before they have even developed past the age of 3 or 4.

Wasn't it YOU that said a child should be hit ON TOP OF A DIAPER? Sorry, but, I see no reason a child in a diaper should be hit... that was YOUR statement -not mine. Children in diapers usually cannot even talk yet.

As I have said time and again, I will try to do all I can without spanking, but when it comes down to the wire and warnings and reasoning does not work, a case of the red ass ALWAYS does the trick with him. And, as I said, we have no problem with the punk having a say in whether or not his punishment is fair, or if he even deserves his punishment. Again, four times in 6 years is not much...it only has to happen when he forgets that we are serious when we say the rules are important. I have also been told that he was an awesome polite kids, how do I get him to sit quietly, and da da da, but I have also left a buggy in the store full of groceries, went to the car, spanked his ass and went back in for acting like a damned buffoon. It works both ways.

I have seen those parents that think their children act perfect, and you can't tell them anything. Maybe they really don't get bothered as easily as the general public, or maybe polite people compliment what is good about that person's kids when they are actually annoying them, or just keep their mouths shut, so they only hear what is good about their children. I usually keep my mouth shut, but after this conversation, I may bring it upon myself to say something so that that parent doesn't think they have perfect kids who can do no wrong.

My aunt and uncle have 9 children. They do not spank. I always heard how they had perfect polite children, and how well behaved they were. Well, when visiting with their family as a child, we went out to eat. My and my "spanked" brother went inside in our fancy clothes, sat and ate and only talked after saying excuse me...my mom had already warned us, she brought the wooden spoon and she would bring us to the bathroom if we embarrassed her.

My cousins went into the building and opened the door for my grandparents. Oh, how polite. The ordered their food, and said yes ma'am and no ma'am. Oh how well mannered. They sat nice and still. Oh how well behaved. Then, the part their parents don't seem to remember, but was even bad to me- as a 6 year old... They crawled under the table, they talked over the adults, they would interrupt their parents by repeating their name over and over until they were answered. The whined, they cried, the bickered, they were loud and rowdy, yet according to their parents they were just being kids. Sorry, but no.

I can remember me, 6, and my little brother, who is 14 months younger than me, having a conversation with my mom and dad on the way home about how "ooooo, they are going to get a big whippin' when they get hoooome", and "why didn't their mommy get on to them?", and things of the like. When told that they didn't have spankings, I will never forget my five year old brother's response- "well, they need 'em, huh, momma?"

We never opened the doors for people, we stayed right beside our parents. WE never said anything to people, like yes ma'am and no ma'am, unless we were asked a question, because we never spoke to adults. You know what we DID do? We did listen to everything told to us, have never, ever, broken a rule, even away from my parents, because we just KNEW we'd get it if something happened and they found out, and people always wanted us at their house.

You can do as YOU wish, but do not judge just because you DON'T spank. For all you know, you just may have a higher tolerance to kids being little brats..and people will not always tell you the truth- you should know that as an adult. I have seen polite kids come from all different backgrounds, and I have seen misbehaving kids come from all different backgrounds...remember it also has to do with how well you reinforce your discipline, and how good of a person you are also.

The punk is a good kid. He listens most of the time... doesn't get many spankings, but he is a kid, and he is bad sometimes, and can be a brat, and sometimes I can want to strangle him- I will not pretend he is perfect. I can say he is ACTING bad, because he knows that he will always be judged by his behavior, and that it defines what people see about him. If he grows up to be a murderer, will you not define him as bad? Will you not judge him by his behavior? Or will you again say it was just a cry for attention? Some kids don't NEED spankings, this is true, and yours may be some of those. But, there some kids who have an iron will, and a a big 'ole rebellious streak, and need to taught somehow- and logic and reason don't always work....not with adults, especially not with kids.

As long as your child gets some positive reinforcement with the negative reinforcement, they should turn out just fine. Just don't assume your kids are perfect, whether or not you spank them. Dh spanks mine, and that'll probably never stop unless I have a child that reasoning works with. It seems effective.... they act like me and their dad, and we know that it is needed.

You can look at our parenting and say what you wish, but remember:

All of us with children, will never see our kids as the little terrors they are...they will always be perfect to us, and we always assume what we are doing is right. If you learn anything, please learn that just like everything else in life, your way is not the only way, and your way does not always work.

 

[Dr.3D]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

 

[Working Poor]

I said a thump on the rump not hit at the top of their diaper. I said where the diaper has the most padding.

I forget to mention that my all children all talked, crawled , and walked very early and all were out of diapers before age of 2. After age two I no longer thumped the rump, but talked with them I changed their minds about being a bull in a china shop. In fact when my children were small I owed an antique shop and their were many small, delicate and breakable items there. They were with me all the time there. I let them hold the different pieces and we talked about each piece. I broke a few pieces and so did they. What's the big deal? I did not terrorize my children when they broke things they did not break many things at any rate. My child is much more valuable than an object. The more valuable pieces I kept in cases but, they were allowed to look at them and touch them with my supervision.

I feel that by the time my children were 4 years old that their personalities were fully developed. I never treated my youngest infant like they did not understand or were unaware of their surroundings.

I can't believe that parents aren't aware enough to know that children are fully functional and very aware and able to know what is going on and nothing is hidden from them.

 

[asimplegirl]

firstly, i never said TOP of the diaper, i said ON TOP, which means ON.. geeze...

secondly, who ever said spanking was hitting as hard as you can?

I can't believe that parents aren't aware enough to know that children are fully functional and very aware and able to know what is going on and nothing is hidden from them.

no, that is why we believe in spanking.. they are learning, and who they are...we should teach them THE BEST WAY THAT AFFECTS THEM to not do bad things..no one said breaking something was a bad thing... I think you have issues, especially judging by not only this thread, but your santa one. You really seem to have no respect for how other people do things, and tend to tell them just that, while sitting up high there judging and bragging. NO one is right in every situation. What is right in your family is not right in mine...I am not a child abuser, nor am I a person who does not love and respect my child and know who they are because they get spanked. I never said that because my child got spanked that they didn't mean as much as your do to you. I also never said I hid things form my child, either...in fact, no one here did.

If everyone could just judge and tell others how to parents, I would have plenty of things I would stop you from doing... I mean form the way you act in this thread alone tells me you may be teaching your children that they know better than all others, and are equals to adults, so they do not have to respect their rules and regulations..I could also say that it would appear you teach your children that people that are any different from them are lower than them somehow......

See how that works? Judging someone's parenting because it is different from your own, and acting like you are THE authority on what it means does not make you out to be a very accepting person of differences, and makes you seem very disrespectful to other parents. I hope that is not your moral high ground...if it is, pin a rose to your nose, mister.

 

[Anti Federalist]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

Test passed.

 

[asimplegirl]

also... test passed here... never have seen ANYTHING broken by the punk, unless it was toy that was played hard with.


OH, yeah, and he wasn't threatened against it, either.

 

[Mini-Me]

Clearly you have never been to Cincinnati

No, that's why I remembered to put in the third category, "Flaming assholes who will run red lights, come hell or high water."

 

[lucius]

My sons wanted spankings. Every time I said "if you do that, I will spank you", they did it and then I spanked them. Always hurt me more than them. But they inherited the hard headedness and it has served them well (as it did me) in their adult lives.

Well put.

Some of this thread is reflective of the next generation of 'new age' docile social engineering. Gatto has good insight into this. (If so inclined, others may read the whole book online of 'The Underground History of American Education' here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm )

I do not think that my children's world will be as kind as mine. So, I am introducing my children to real policy agenda, which when around strangers they can regurgitate party-lines befitting any mindless obamabot--look to the noble chameleon. They know the difference.

I hope my children will be a tad-bit more feral. Psychopaths do run the world. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Babiak/Hare, you bet they're on the homeschooling curriculum.

ps: I don't vote in these polls.

 

[Fox McCloud]

No, that's why I remembered to put in the third category, "Flaming assholes who will run red lights, come hell or high water."

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

 

[pinkmandy]

No one is saying there shouldn't be consequences. There should always be discipline and consequences, it's part of parenting. That can be achieved without spanking.

I was spanked as a child. I didn't care. I knew if I did something I shouldn't do that was particularly naughty, then I'd get a spanking. I'd weigh that out as a child and often opt for the smack on the behind if I what I wanted to do was more important to me than a few seconds of a smarting behind. IF I got caught at all. I was perfectly able to reason but that isn't the method my parents always chose. A reasoned discussion would have had way more impact on my actions as that teaches long term. A spanking? A few minutes and it's over. That might work for children who don't reason, I don't know. It was completely ineffective for me. The lessons I learned were not from being spanked, they were from the real repercussions of my actions.

I haven't met many children who can't reason. It's an important ability we should be utilizing and encouraging- especially when subjects of right vs. wrong come up. When a child misbehaves it's an opportunity for parents to instill critical thinking skills. Look at our society and tell me honestly that we have a country full of rational people with the ability to think critically, reason, and make sound decisions. Change, change, change ring a bell? They hate us for our freedoms? Take away our freedoms to protect our freedoms?

We need THINKERS, like Dr. Paul. We need to look at what Dr. Paul promotes, who he is, what he stands for and realize that starts at home. We can't have a non-aggressive country who stands for individual rights when we don't model that behavior for our children. Does our govt model how our children are raised (public school included)? Isn't it really a reflection of the people themselves?

Of course, I probably have my own interpretation of that as do others and I can respect that. I don't think if you spank you are ruining your children for life by any means but I think it's HIGHLY ignorant to suggest that all children who aren't spanked are brats and sad that people who spout such idiotic generalizations and believe them must rely so heavily on spanking without understanding there are many ways to discipline a child.

 

[Mini-Me]

Well, actually, in the middle of the night, when there is hardly any traffic and the light is red, I will sometimes stop and look both ways and then proceed before waiting for the light to change. I'm sure if there was no consequences for doing this in the middle of the daytime, people would be doing it a lot. The traffic light has no authority to tell me to stop and wait till it turns green. It is just a stupid automated device we have been told to obey. So yes, I am one of those ass holes who would run the occasional red light.

Actually, I accounted for you:

Except in cases where running a red light is against the law but not particularly dangerous (i.e. nobody else is around whatsoever, which mitigates the "flaming asshole" thing), I imagine the last group of people is pretty sparsely populated.

In those kind of cases, that falls into the category of rules with questionable moral authority behind them, which is precisely why it's so much easier for you to rationalize running the light under those circumstances.

You seem to misunderstand the point of what I was saying about police authority and breaking the law. I did not imply it was okay to break the law as long as you don't get caught. What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined.

Let's just look at it this way. If a police officer were to be standing on the corner with a whistle and he blew it whenever a car went through a red light, how much effect would it have on the behavior of the drivers who were running the lights? But if instead of just blowing a whistle, the officer writes tickets, people have a tendency to pay much more attention to red lights. This is why the police have the authority to write tickets rather than just pulling someone over and trying to reason with them. The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".

I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation. This is obvious as we watch the decline of morality in our society that has been happening since dicipline was first taken out of the school system and then out of the home.

You said, "What I am saying here is there are some laws that are not just in the first place and a bit if civil disobedience can be expected no matter how well one is disciplined." This is exactly my point: When it comes to most people, discipline in the case of traffic violations is usually only "necessary" because they rules themselves are often weakly justified and unnecessary. However, most people tend to be much more obedient to rules that are strongly justified, because they agree with and internalize the justification behind them. It's still necessary to discipline the "flaming assholes" who violate good rules anyway, because at least discipline provides a deterrent and a sense that there are consequences to actions...but basically, my main point is that just laws with punitive consequences for violating them are there for the "bad" people, because the "good" people wouldn't break them in the first place. Similarly, discipline is only necessary to correct the behavior of "bad" kids who do not yet have morals, because the good kids will behave even without the threat of punishment.

What happens is this: If you rely only on discipline and fear of consequences when raising your kids, your kids' morality will never develop past fear of consequences (which is the morality of the lowest common denominator). If the threat of consequences goes away someday or they think they can get away with it, they'll act as amoral as they please. Because of that, discipline by itself is only a stop-gap to relieve symptoms of amorality, not a cure for amorality. Discipline by itself only creates functional and outwardly well-behaved people, not good people.

To address the following point:

The results have been found to be much better if there is some kind of loss to the law breaker rather than just a good "time out".

You say this as if physical pain is the only possible kind of discipline, and as if physical pain is the only thing that will make a child feel like they felt some kind of loss after a transgression. If this is really what you mean by this, it's an arbitrary and unimaginative assessment. You could hit your kids' hands with a hammer or cut off a finger joint every time they did something wrong, and it would certainly get the point across and modify their behavior, but even aside from the fact that it won't make them any more moral deep down (and would probably teach them the wrong lessons about violence)...would such over-the-top and violent punishments be strictly necessary? Obviously they aren't, and I think everyone will agree. Spanking is much different in terms of degree, but the point is that a slap on the butt also might send the wrong lesson about violence (and how to gain compliance from those you have power over), and it's also not usually strictly necessary. Even controlled physical violence can be an unnecessary display of "shock and awe." There are plenty of punishments that would make your kid feel loss. What do they love to do...play basketball? Play video games? Make them go a day, a week, etc. without the privilege of doing what they enjoy, and they'll certainly feel "loss" for a transgression. As another example, a time-out can similarly instill a sense of loss, because ten minutes staring at the wall in boredom is a freaking eternity to a three-year-old. Sure, it may not be an appropriate punishment for something as serious as hitting, biting, etc., but it can be quite enough for a three-year-old that talks back disrespectfully, etc.

Finally, I want to address your closing point:

I wouldn't expect anybody who has grown up with out discipline in the past 30 years to understand this concept as the idea of dicipline has pretty much been lost to this generation.

I'm sorry, but this is just blowing a bunch of hot air. Pretty much every generation has thought poorly of the "unruly" subsequent generation, as if they have no discipline or values, and as if the world is going to hell solely because the "entirety" of the new generation is just so rotten. This same exact moral panic theme regarding youth has played out over and over throughout human history. Sure, there are a lot of spoiled, selfish, bratty kids who grow up to be spoiled, selfish, bratty adults today, but that's not because there "aren't enough spankings" in particular, and these people certainly don't comprise the entirety of people who grew up without being spanked. The main reason these bratty kids and immature adults exist is because their parents were dreadful, self-absorbed people who didn't spend the time or effort that it takes to raise good kids. The bad parents are not the ones who substituted groundings for spankings - they're the parents who let their children get away entirely with bratty behavior because they didn't want to bother dealing with it or because they couldn't bear to acknowledge that their kids weren't perfect. They're the parents who showered their kids with money and material belongings as a substitute for time and love. They're the parents who didn't spend any time raising their kids whatsoever, who pushed the job of raising their kids off onto babysitters or television. There are certainly a lot of spoiled and bratty kids today, and the parents I mentioned above are the primary cause, not the fact that many involved parents have moved on from spankings to more civilized methods (and let's be honest - the "old school" way of raising kids involved a whole lot more violence than mere butt-spankings, yet it used to pass as entirely normal).

So yes, there are a lot of rotten kids who grow up to be rotten people, but the pro-spanking crowd is misdiagnosing the cause. What's usually left forgotten is that the cherished old school methods of raising kids didn't exactly produce sweet little angels, either. The flat-out abuse that used to pass for the good Lord's discipline in the "good old days" may not have produced the MTV "My Super Sweet Sixteen" generation, but based on what I've seen, it seems as though it produced more than one generation with an overabundance of outwardly normal and polite narcissists and sociopaths. These people behave in a perfectly "respectable" way in society, but they treat their spouses, etc. like utter shit, and their interpersonal relationships revolve around dominance and dynamics of power and control. The occasional butt-spanking is probably unlikely to create "monsters" like this, but I still think some caution is warranted, and it's best to avoid even minimal and controlled physical violence unless strictly necessary.

 

[Mini-Me]

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

...and when there are consequences, as there are in Cincy, the action will often still be done by those same people. Why is this? It's because a lot of the time, these people still think they can get away with it, so they do it anyway. Discipline is nothing more than behavioral conditioning, and it works to modify the bad behavior of people when the ruling authority is present or thought to be present, but it's only a stop-gap, because it does not cure the underlying assholishness.

 

[Mini-Me]

I really doubt people believe their children to be bad, but rather uneducated and inexperienced.
It has been proven time and again, the nerves in the butt are very well connected to the memory processes in the brain.

Before the age of say perhaps 5, a child doesn't really function very well when it comes to logic. I have found when trying to use logic with a child of 4 years age, it is much like trying to teach a monkey to use a typewriter. Just try to discuss the concept of age with a child of 4 and you will find they don't understand it at all. They will often say they are older than you are.

Can the butt remember sitting on a chair for an annoyingly long time?

 

[moostraks]

then most of Cincy must be "flaming a-holes", because most everyone does that in Cincy....IMHO Cincy is very helpful evidence to Dr. 3D's case...with no consequences for one's actions, that action will be done no matter what.

HAha!!! This must be an Ohio thing. I have lived in Florida, Georgia,New York, and Alabama and nobody runs them like they do in Ohio.

 

[Mini-Me]

Wasn't it YOU that said a child should be hit ON TOP OF A DIAPER? Sorry, but, I see no reason a child in a diaper should be hit... that was YOUR statement -not mine. Children in diapers usually cannot even talk yet.

As I have said time and again, I will try to do all I can without spanking, but when it comes down to the wire and warnings and reasoning does not work, a case of the red ass ALWAYS does the trick with him. And, as I said, we have no problem with the punk having a say in whether or not his punishment is fair, or if he even deserves his punishment. Again, four times in 6 years is not much...it only has to happen when he forgets that we are serious when we say the rules are important. I have also been told that he was an awesome polite kids, how do I get him to sit quietly, and da da da, but I have also left a buggy in the store full of groceries, went to the car, spanked his ass and went back in for acting like a damned buffoon. It works both ways.

I have seen those parents that think their children act perfect, and you can't tell them anything. Maybe they really don't get bothered as easily as the general public, or maybe polite people compliment what is good about that person's kids when they are actually annoying them, or just keep their mouths shut, so they only hear what is good about their children. I usually keep my mouth shut, but after this conversation, I may bring it upon myself to say something so that that parent doesn't think they have perfect kids who can do no wrong.

My aunt and uncle have 9 children. They do not spank. I always heard how they had perfect polite children, and how well behaved they were. Well, when visiting with their family as a child, we went out to eat. My and my "spanked" brother went inside in our fancy clothes, sat and ate and only talked after saying excuse me...my mom had already warned us, she brought the wooden spoon and she would bring us to the bathroom if we embarrassed her.

My cousins went into the building and opened the door for my grandparents. Oh, how polite. The ordered their food, and said yes ma'am and no ma'am. Oh how well mannered. They sat nice and still. Oh how well behaved. Then, the part their parents don't seem to remember, but was even bad to me- as a 6 year old... They crawled under the table, they talked over the adults, they would interrupt their parents by repeating their name over and over until they were answered. The whined, they cried, the bickered, they were loud and rowdy, yet according to their parents they were just being kids. Sorry, but no.

I can remember me, 6, and my little brother, who is 14 months younger than me, having a conversation with my mom and dad on the way home about how "ooooo, they are going to get a big whippin' when they get hoooome", and "why didn't their mommy get on to them?", and things of the like. When told that they didn't have spankings, I will never forget my five year old brother's response- "well, they need 'em, huh, momma?"

We never opened the doors for people, we stayed right beside our parents. WE never said anything to people, like yes ma'am and no ma'am, unless we were asked a question, because we never spoke to adults. You know what we DID do? We did listen to everything told to us, have never, ever, broken a rule, even away from my parents, because we just KNEW we'd get it if something happened and they found out, and people always wanted us at their house.

You can do as YOU wish, but do not judge just because you DON'T spank. For all you know, you just may have a higher tolerance to kids being little brats..and people will not always tell you the truth- you should know that as an adult. I have seen polite kids come from all different backgrounds, and I have seen misbehaving kids come from all different backgrounds...remember it also has to do with how well you reinforce your discipline, and how good of a person you are also.

The punk is a good kid. He listens most of the time... doesn't get many spankings, but he is a kid, and he is bad sometimes, and can be a brat, and sometimes I can want to strangle him- I will not pretend he is perfect. I can say he is ACTING bad, because he knows that he will always be judged by his behavior, and that it defines what people see about him. If he grows up to be a murderer, will you not define him as bad? Will you not judge him by his behavior? Or will you again say it was just a cry for attention? Some kids don't NEED spankings, this is true, and yours may be some of those. But, there some kids who have an iron will, and a a big 'ole rebellious streak, and need to taught somehow- and logic and reason don't always work....not with adults, especially not with kids.

As long as your child gets some positive reinforcement with the negative reinforcement, they should turn out just fine. Just don't assume your kids are perfect, whether or not you spank them. Dh spanks mine, and that'll probably never stop unless I have a child that reasoning works with. It seems effective.... they act like me and their dad, and we know that it is needed.

You can look at our parenting and say what you wish, but remember:

All of us with children, will never see our kids as the little terrors they are...they will always be perfect to us, and we always assume what we are doing is right. If you learn anything, please learn that just like everything else in life, your way is not the only way, and your way does not always work.

I like your story, but if you're using it to make the case for spanking in particular, I think you're missing part of the bigger picture: Those kids in the restaurant were not bratty because they weren't spanked. They were bratty because their parents completely tolerated the bratty behavior, as if there was nothing wrong with it. Their parents could have used your advice not to think their kids are perfect...they were definitely in need of discipline that night, and their parents honestly should have nipped it in the bud much earlier than that night...but did they need to use spankings in particular? Not necessarily. I've seen lots of kids who act like that, and the common thread is that their parents simply shrug it off and let it pass, and they don't address the behavior with any level of seriousness.

I like how you mentioned that some kids have an iron will and a rebellious streak and might need spankings, too...but coming from my own experience of having been one of those kids: When your kids do show an iron will, it's worthwhile to assess whether they might actually be in the right in the first place. If they are in fact on the right side of the confrontation, it would be wrong to force them into submission simply because you're bigger than they are and you can. It's probably very unlikely for a six-year-old to be in the right, but...as kids grow up, it might become more common.

Now, the "Do not speak unless you are spoken to" and "Children are meant to be seen, not heard" rules, on the other hand...I've always considered those ones to be pretty fascist, because they're predicated on the assumption that children not only have nothing worthwhile or interesting to say, but that they're literally less important than adults and unworthy of interaction. In general, adults who have that particular rule are selfishly using their authority as parents to subjugate their kids, just because it suits them. "Might makes right," I guess. If the point is just to keep kids from being boisterous, a better rule might be, "Do not be loud and inconsiderate, do not whine, etc.."

 

[Working Poor]

to not do bad things..no one said breaking something was a bad thing... I think you have issues, especially judging by not only this thread, but your santa one. You really seem to have no respect for how other people do things, and tend to tell them just that, while sitting up high there judging and bragging. NO one is right in every situation. What is right in your family is not right in mine...I am not a child abuser, nor am I a person who does not love and respect my child and know who they are because they get spanked. I never said that because my child got spanked that they didn't mean as much as your do to you. I also never said I hid things form my child, either...in fact, no one here did.

My gosh I believe you defend where none is needed....

I am merely sharing my child rearing experiences I am not judging you. You raise your children the way you want to.

Some people believe spanking is necessary I do not. Some people call somethings bad in a child that I do not.

My children are very well behaved, GOD fearing, respectful, level headed, compassionate, individuals.

While you may believe children are unaware I have never thought that of my children or anyone else's for that matter. I don't believe I could have hidden anything from them if I wanted to. They called me out on my stuff too and we laughed my issues away.

I did get whipped fort not believing in Santa Claus and not wanting anything and my mom believed I was trying to make her crazy. My mom was very violent but that is the way she was raised. Later in life she apologized to me. She is my mom and I do love her. You know what I am glad too that I was raised the way I was raised because as hard headed as I am I may have pushed against being treated gently. I don't know...

I decided I would try a much different approach. I wanted my children to make their own choices about things and suffer the consequences or reap the rewards. I wanted them to know the truth and not be afraid to tell me when they were in trouble. All my kids knew they would be in serious trouble with me if they lied and I found out about it.

They made mistakes and so did I and I am sure I will again and they will too. At my house we all own what we do and don't blame someone else.

I have seen somethings that have shaped my views. I do swim against the tide of what society thinks I am a rebel in every since of the word. I got kicked out of Sunday school when I was 3 for confessing that I procrastinated. I still do Nothing would really surprise me.....

 

[Mini-Me]

For those who believe they have an obedient child, there is a test.

Take them into an expensive china/gift shop and stay for around half an hour. If you are able to later leave the china shop without having to pay a bill for broken items, then perhaps you have an obedient child.

This is a good test...but just be careful to make sure that you don't fail it yourself. My dad did.