Social Libertarian?

I didn't ask for criticism.

Ummm, I hate to have to break this to you but when you post an opinion, especially a controversial one, on a forum populated by thousnads of diverse individuals, you're not only asking for criticism, you're pretty much begging for it!
 
Ummm, I hate to have to break this to you but when you post an opinion, especially a controversial one, on a forum populated by thousnads of diverse individuals, you're not only asking for criticism, you're pretty much begging for it!

Not at all this was designed for a meeting of similair minds.


Many like us feel the poor deserve a right to have a chance to do the same things that those better off do...
 
Not at all this was designed for a meeting of similair minds.


Many like us feel the poor deserve a right to have a chance to do the same things that those better off do...

We all have a chance thus the words "the pursuit of happiness" there is nothing promising any will catch it.
 
the only "socialized service" that i support beyond the usual gimmes (fire dept, police) is education, because it teaches people how to fish and not be dependent on the government

I do think that civil/military service should be compulsory however. Everyone should serve at least 1 year

Interestingly, I think Thomas Jefferson, that great classical liberal, would agree with you:

"Education is here placed among the articles of public care, not that it would be proposed to take its ordinary branches out of the hands of private enterprise, which manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal; but a public institution can alone supply those sciences which, though rarely called for, are yet necessary to complete the circle, all parts of which contribute to the improvement of the country, and some of them to its preservation...I suppose an amendment to the constitution, by consent of the States, necessary, because the objects now recommended are not among those enumerated in the constitution, and to which it permits the public moneys to be applied."

"We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done."
 
Many like us feel the poor deserve a right to have a chance to do the same things that those better off do...

They do...as long as they pay for it themselves. Otherwise, it is theft. Everyone has equal opportunity, but you're expecting equal outcomes for everyone. Sorry, life isn't fair and never will be. Ever heard of Darwin?

Hell, some of the arguments you've made put into the context of the person being an illegal alien would be laughed at by a majority of the US population, i.e., most taxpayers are not at all happy about the number of illegals coming here and making use of "free" healthcare, schools, etc.. Why? Because they've finally recognized that it isn't "free"...they're paying for it and the illegals are not.

Your claim to being a libertarian is about as honest as Bush's claim to being a compassionate conservative. Own up to it! You're a communist!

You sound more like a Hillary supporter....taxpayer supported healthcare is something she supports, but Ron Paul doesn't.
 
Many like us ['social libertarians'] feel the poor deserve a right to have a chance to do the same things that those better off do.
For a brief time in my life, I believed as you do. That time coincided with my having been plunged precipitously into unexpected poverty. Didn't take long, however, to recover my original political principles, if not my former middle-class existence.

I remain a member of "the poor" and am now Coordinator of a national movement in Canada of low-income people who work to provide support and self-help to one another. We do not see ourselves as "the poor", "the needy", "the less fortunate", "the vulnerable", ad nauseam. Rather, we see ourselves as no less than individuals and human beings with something to contribute. We still have, e.g., our skills, intelligence, fortitude that we've always had.

Now when it comes to rights and whether we have a right to claim a basic income, minimum wage, health insurance, ..., we recognize that claiming what ethicists and philosophers call "positive rights" via government intervention means forcing others to support us and, ultimately, infringing upon their "negative rights" (those rights which we all have, without reference to manmade law or edict).

Just as we resent being referred to as the needy, the poor, etc., we reject the notion that we have any right to require people to help us. We are, in other words, as emphatically independent as anyone else, be they rich or poor.

Of course, I can speak only on behalf of the low-income people who are connected through my organization. But there are far more of us who think this way than may be supposed. It can be difficult, however, to combat the victimology and dependence that the nanny state encourages - which makes our ability to organize and connect up all the more important.
 
We all have a chance thus the words "the pursuit of happiness" there is nothing promising any will catch it.

If a poor person is working in infrahuman conditions and gets sick and thefore a whole week or even month of his work week he is unable to work. Say he has a house and a mortage and because he can not work hes unable to pay for that. Say he loses his job. What then? What do you propose he do?
 
yes im a dirty communist

I guess ron paul just lost a vote..

Oh come on now man. Ron paul has nothing to do with his supporters, i thought we learned this with the whole Don Black episode? Ron paul advocates not leaving people out in the streets, and cares deeply for the poor, and has shown this. You are seriously underestimating the power of charity in a healthy economy. That being said, you are free to have your views. Most peoples criticisms were simply that you were not really "libertarian" in the tradition "negative liberty" sense of the word, and i'd agree with that. Not voting for Ron Paul, who im sure you came to for reasons other than his wonderful platform of [sarcasm]leaving to poor to die on the streets[/sarcasm], would be utterly absurd simply because you received some criticism, maybe a bit too harsh, from some posters in an internet forum.

Think for a sec here, buddy.
 
If a poor person is working in infrahuman conditions and gets sick and thefore a whole week or even month of his work week he is unable to work. Say he has a house and a mortage and because he can not work hes unable to pay for that. Say he loses his job. What then? What do you propose he do?

If the person hasn't bought insurance to address these potential circumstances, they would have to rely on the charity of others.

Insurance companies and charities take a more active role in addressing these situations. For example, they might examine why the person is sick. Do they use drugs and/or alcohol? What are their habits in respect to general health? If working conditions are causing the illness, the employer may be liable.

Government rarely performs well in this capacity because its concerns are political not financial.
 
I'm a Social Libertarian

Since true liberty in any society comes, ultimately, from God (because He gives us our unalienable rights) when we obey His commandments and laws, I consider myself a social libertarian, based on these two moral precepts:

1. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength."

2. "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."

Social libertarianism is based on love, and only true love comes from God.
 
If the person hasn't bought insurance to address these potential circumstances, they would have to rely on the charity of others.

Insurance companies and charities take a more active role in addressing these situations. For example, they might examine why the person is sick. Do they use drugs and/or alcohol? What are their habits in respect to general health? If working conditions are causing the illness, the employer may be liable.

Government rarely performs well in this capacity because its concerns are political not financial.

With what money? If your barely making ends meet do you have any idea what insurance would cost you? Jesus.
 
i took a couple of those internet polls earlier today to determine where on the 'grid' i stand, and it placed me as a 'commie liberal b****' as well :? When you think about the circumstances of lets say having only those wealthy enough to afford medicine, such as lets say mitt romney, over someone who cant even afford a rent and are evicted or something because they work in perhaps a kitchen which wages have been sunk rock bottom because of the overabundance of cheap, often illegal labor... and you think "wtf, thats just wrong. id much rather see some dude strip a digit's place off of romneys bank account and start treating medical conditions for those that cant afford their daily bread."

But then you also have to think about the expense of those services of which we all have a 'right' to, and how that would be far less of an issue to tackle if the cost of medical services were competitive like most other industries unsubsidized by government.

You could make another hypothetical case where a drug abuser and felon were dying of an illness of his/her own devices, and under that same creed, this person would be able to siphon money from joe-goodyboots who is trying to raise an honest family with moral values and just happened to have a little good fortune in his business affairs along the way. i think people like you and i that lean on that humanitarian side to be far less inclined to apply those same rules in this particular case.

I think the main point standing that those here 'holier than thou' (curse you for being sympathetic at heart, you better leave! because we arent begging for all the supporting members we can find or anything </sarcasm> ) is that the constitution defends the rights of everyone by denying government the ability to meddle in individual affairs in perhaps well-intentioned but ultimately ill-mannered practices which in all cases forces someone to cover that cost (whether it be financial, through services, etc). So the moral argument isnt really what is in question, i think most people here are very sympathetic to those causes as well, they just believe that having government handle these programs at the federal level is unconstitutional and grossly inefficient.
 
If a poor person is working in infrahuman conditions and gets sick and thefore a whole week or even month of his work week he is unable to work. Say he has a house and a mortage and because he can not work hes unable to pay for that. Say he loses his job. What then? What do you propose he do?


Oddly enough I have a cousin who has renal cancer. His friends and coworkers give him money to help out, he has purchased health and disability insurance for years and that is helping him pay for some of his treatment. He will still probably have to sell his house to pay for some of his bills. He originally got disability insurance because he likes to do mountain and rock climbing and thought it might be a prudent investment, it seems to be paying off as are friendships he has made in his life.
 
See I don't think one should have to rely on charity to fufill a basic right.

so, free healthcare is not charity on the part of someone? not the doctors? not the taxpayers whose money was stolen to fund it?

isn't that what you're suggesting when you say that healthcare is a basic right?

healthcare isn't a thing that appears out of thin air, there are material goods and
labor involved... if those are given up without compensation it is one of the following

1) theft
2) soft slavery
3) charity

so, which is it?
 
See I don't think one should have to rely on charity to fufill a basic right.

Any time you try to compell another person to provide for your life through force, whether directly as an individual or indirectly through gov't, the proper name for this is theft. A person that does this has no morals.

Philosophy of Liberty
 
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If a poor person is working in infrahuman conditions and gets sick and thefore a whole week or even month of his work week he is unable to work. Say he has a house and a mortage and because he can not work hes unable to pay for that. Say he loses his job. What then? What do you propose he do?

That's what private charity is for, and YOU are welcome to contribute any amount of YOUR money you choose to, and so are others. You are NOT free, however, to point a gun at MY head and insist I help too. That choice is up to me.

Nevermind... I changed my mind. I've decided everybody has a right to a Ferrari, and we're gonna start with me. Send me $50,000 immediately or I'll send my government goons to collect. :D
 
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