So is Pope Francis the Ron Paul of popes?

[donkefant]

The libertarian approach to social issues seems to be gaining steam, even with vestiges of traditional order like the Catholic Church.

In an interview published Thursday, Pope Francis revealed a libertarian undercurrent to his philosophy on social issues like abortion and gay marriage, while reaffirming the church's age-old position.

"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods..." Read More​

Pope Francis' stance sounds somewhat similar to Ron Paul's comments made during the presidential campaign.

"Biblically and historically, the government was very uninvolved in marriage..." Read More​

The two most divisive culture war topics in American politics have been a hotbed of political mudslinging for decades. The Pope elaborated that focusing on such topics are a recipe for disaster.

Read More

 

[Christian Liberty]

Ugh, that picture is offensive.

I'll save the hardcore bashing for Sola_Fide, but ugh...

 

[goRPaul]

Ugh, that picture is offensive.

I'll save the hardcore bashing for Sola_Fide, but ugh...

Yeah, that picture is awful.

The new pope, the first one from the Americas, is simply modernizing the church. It's a PR campaign to fill the pews. But I guess it's fun to speculate what the effects a libertarian pope would have on people.

 

[TaftFan]

Ugh, that picture is offensive.

I'll save the hardcore bashing for Sola_Fide, but ugh...

Why would that be offensive to a person who dislikes Catholics so much?

 

[eduardo89]

Why would that be offensive to a person who dislikes Catholics so much?

It's offensive to Catholics. It's offensive to those who hate Catholics and love Ron Paul as well.

 

[brushfire]

Sinaed O'Connor dont like him either...

 

[cajuncocoa]

It's offensive to Catholics. It's offensive to those who hate Catholics and love Ron Paul as well.

I agree.

 

[Sola_Fide]

It's offensive to Catholics. It's offensive to those who hate Catholics and love Ron Paul as well.

Does it bother you that you think a man...any man...is the "vicar" of Christ on earth? I know it doesn't, but it should.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Why would that be offensive to a person who dislikes Catholics so much?

It's offensive to Catholics. It's offensive to those who hate Catholics and love Ron Paul as well.

That was pretty much my point.

To be clear, I hate Catholicism. I hate false religions. I don't hate "Catholics" unless you're talking about very specific ones like Biden or Pelosi And there are just as many Catholics that I love, like Napolitano or Woods.

 

[eduardo89]

Does it bother you that you think a man...any man...is the "vicar" of Christ on earth? I know it doesn't, but it should.

Why should it? Christ made Peter his vicar and pastor with the responsibility to feed his flock (i.e. the Church) in his own place.

16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.

17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

From the CCC:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, is pastor of the entire Church.

894 "The bishops, as vicars and legates of Christ, govern the particular Churches assigned to them by their counsels, exhortations, and example, but over and above that also by the authority and sacred power" which indeed they ought to exercise so as to edify, in the spirit of service which is that of their Master.

 

[cajuncocoa]

To be clear, I hate Catholicism. I hate false religions.

That "false religion" that you hate was started by Jesus Christ.

 

[Christian Liberty]

That "false religion" that you hate was started by Jesus Christ.

Cajun, you once told me that you agreed with me that no person who doesn't believe in Christ can be saved without believing in Christ. I don't know how much Catholic teaching you actually know (Heck, I don't know all that much) but I know enough to know that the Catholic Church does NOT agree with you on this point.

The Catholic Church teaches that some can be saved without Christ, if they "seek after God" which is a form of works-salvation which, based on what I know of you, you do not accept.

My purpose in posting that comment was more to clarify where I stood. I'm not Catholic, and I don't hate Catholics either, but I do think its offensive to take a humble libertarian Baptist and make a picture of him as the Pope. I'm almost certain Ron Paul would be appalled at the notion.

As for Catholicism being founded by Jesus Christ, I honestly don't understand where you guys get that one from.

 

[eduardo89]

I don't hate "Catholics" unless you're talking about very specific ones like Biden or Pelosi

You shouldn't hate Biden or Pelosi. I thought you followed the Bible?

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[eduardo89]

The Catholic Church teaches that some can be saved without Christ, if they "seek after God" which is a form of works-salvation which, based on what I know of you, you do not accept.

Wrong. The Church teaches that we trust in God's infinite mercy towards those who, through no fault of their own, have never had the opportunity to hear about Christ, the Gospel, and His Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will. That does not mean they can ever be saved except by and through the Grace of the Cross!

 

[Christian Liberty]

You shouldn't hate Biden or Pelosi. I thought you followed the Bible?

I agree with you that I shouldn't. But I still do. I guess this is another one of those is/ought fallacies. I'm not claiming that I'm RIGHT to feel that way, only that I do, in fact, feel that way.

My hatred for them has nothing to do with their Catholicism either.

Wrong. The Church teaches that we trust in God's infinite mercy towards those who, through no fault of their own, have never had the opportunity to hear about Christ, the Gospel, and His Church but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will. That does not mean they can ever be saved except by and through the Grace of the Cross!

This is kind of a ridiculous argument. I might as well say that everyone will be saved but that they're only saved through Christ. Ultimately its the same heresy. I think God is powerful enough to bring every elect person to a knowledge of his gospel, not to mention that the Bible in fact teaches that he will. Mind you, I'm not saying they'll perfectly comprehend the gospel, I don't believe we'll EVER perfectly contradict the gospel, but I believe it is absolutely damnable heresy to teach that a person can be saved while still believing in Allah (And I'm talking about the Muslim version of Allah here, not the Arabic Christian word for God), the Hindu pantheon of deities, or trusting in their works for salvation rather than the Biblical gospel.

The Bible says God saves THROUGH FAITH. There is no other means through which he gives his grace (Ephesians 2:8-9). Teaching any other gospel than this is enough for Paul to say you are eternally condemned (Galatians 1:8.) "Christians" who say there are some Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, or any other false religion will get to heaven without believing in Christ before they die are still dead in their own sins.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Cajun, you once told me that you agreed with me that no person who doesn't believe in Christ can be saved without believing in Christ. I don't know how much Catholic teaching you actually know (Heck, I don't know all that much) but I know enough to know that the Catholic Church does NOT agree with you on this point.

The Catholic Church teaches that some can be saved without Christ, if they "seek after God" which is a form of works-salvation which, based on what I know of you, you do not accept.

My purpose in posting that comment was more to clarify where I stood. I'm not Catholic, and I don't hate Catholics either, but I do think its offensive to take a humble libertarian Baptist and make a picture of him as the Pope. I'm almost certain Ron Paul would be appalled at the notion.

As for Catholicism being founded by Jesus Christ, I honestly don't understand where you guys get that one from.

That's wrong, FF. I have never heard anyone in the Catholic Church claim that one can be saved without Christ.

 

[eduardo89]

That's wrong, FF. I have never heard anyone in the Catholic Church claim that one can be saved without Christ.

Because the Church never has claimed that. Salvation is solely by the Grace of the Cross.

 

[eduardo89]

I agree with you that I shouldn't. But I still do. I guess this is another one of those is/ought fallacies. I'm not claiming that I'm RIGHT to feel that way, only that I do, in fact, feel that way.

My hatred for them has nothing to do with their Catholicism either.

I guess you're unregenerate then

(yes, I'm mocking your use of that accusation)

 

[cajuncocoa]

Because the Church never has claimed that. Salvation is solely by the Grace of the Cross.

I've been a Catholic all of my life (I have grown children, so do the math!) and what you posted here is 100% correct, and what I was always taught in Catholic school and at the pulpit in Church.

 

[Christian Liberty]

That's wrong, FF. I have never heard anyone in the Catholic Church claim that one can be saved without Christ.

Eduardo has done so in this very thread.

God saves by grace THROUGH FAITH. I really, really don't see what's complicated about this. The problem is that people like eduardo, and Billy Graham, will claim that some people don't believe "Through no fault of their own" as if it was their ignorance rather than their sins that damned them.

I guess you're unregenerate then

(yes, I'm mocking your use of that accusation)

I have never called anyone unregenerate because they admitted to being a sinner or having sinful thoughts. I have ONLY done so to people who deny the gospel of Christ. And considering Paul did the same thing, I feel like I'm in good company in that regard.

Your problem is you think you believe the true gospel, despite the Biblical evidence to the contrary.