Should we not run a presidential candidate in 2016?

What stratagy for 2016?

  • Run a presidential candidate

    Votes: 72 72.0%
  • Get behind the LP candidate

    Votes: 11 11.0%
  • House strategy

    Votes: 27 27.0%
  • Senate Strategy

    Votes: 27 27.0%
  • I re-found my apathy

    Votes: 18 18.0%

  • Total voters
    100
That is just so much bullshit. :rolleyes:

He may have a point. Apparently there is a large group of 'conservatives' who came around to parts of Obamacare because of the mandate. "We have mandatory auto insurance to protect other drivers, so we should have mandatory health insurance so we don't bankrupt our hospitals. Blah blah blah government needs more power. Let's tax people for not affording health insurance."

It is bullshit, but I don't think we mean that in the same context.
 
Then you are not helping the cause of liberty

Tell us how the foreign policy of Mitt Romney, sanctions on Iran, calling for the massive seizure of private land by the government on behalf of corporations, expanding corporate state/fascist economics, and taking the ultra-nationalist, pro-bribery, position on foreign aid is "helping the cause of liberty?"

This is the problem with the new Randian cult. Despite accusations that Rand's critics are unfair and demand perfection, they take an even more extreme pro-Rand position. Any criticism of Rand, failure to support his future plans, questioning of his motivations, et is immediately denounced as insane, anti-movement rhetoric. It's not enough to view Rand as a potential ally - something I have written about in a public forum very recently - one must accept him as a christ like, messianic figure, who's status as a serial liar is a positive good that is actually somehow supposed to make him MORE trustworthy.

I was actually far more open to a Rand run not that long ago. Even after the endorsement of Romney in fact (the endorsement was to be expected. The statements he offered in defense of Romney were disgraceful). But the professional Rand Paul Rah Rah Brigades has shown me the danger of a Rand candidacy. As a "best we can reasonably do candidate" he is appealing. As a "this man defines our movement" candidate he is abysmal. And that is how he is being casts by the great majority of his supporters, to say nothing of those (like Collins) who are attempting to build their careers off of him in the future.
 
I thought the cause of liberty was to promote individuality and to support people being able to make their own decisions.

To Matt the cause of liberty means "things that will get me paid." That's obvious.

For the record I think there are sound strategic reasons for Rand supporters to oppose his running for President as well, some of which were outlined by ProvincialPeasant. But they will be ignored in favor of Rah Rah cheerleading.
 
As I believe was previously pointed out in this thread, Rand will be running in 2016.

There is no question of who "we" should run. It is up to every individual to decide whether or not they will support him, but the great majority of the liberty movement will unquestionably support him and his candidacy.

Any attempts to derail or subvert his candidacy by trying to convince others in our movement not to support him or to try and push another candidate will, in fact, hurt the liberty movement. This is true of any efforts to fracture any movement, but it not necessarily wrong as its often the result of a belief that the movement is getting away from its defining values.

The die has already been cast. The only question left to answer is if you will support him personally. Here is to freedom of conscience!
 
Rand Paul's candidacy in 2016 will have historic implications on the scale of Barry Goldwater. If others want to miss the train and complain until the end of time, so be it. Rand has been kicked and dragged through the mud by his supposed allies even before he committed to endorsing Romney. Don't be fooled by the sanction barbs and the contention about the Romney endorsement. They never liked Rand to begin with, which was well-documented when he announced his candidacy as a primary challenger in Kentucky. Rand will keep on trucking without them.
 
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As I believe was previously pointed out in this thread, Rand will be running in 2016.

There is no question of who "we" should run. It is up to every individual to decide whether or not they will support him, but the great majority of the liberty movement will unquestionably support him and his candidacy.

Any attempts to derail or subvert his candidacy by trying to convince others in our movement not to support him or to try and push another candidate will, in fact, hurt the liberty movement. This is true of any efforts to fracture any movement, but it not necessarily wrong as its often the result of a belief that the movement is getting away from its defining values.

The die has already been cast. The only question left to answer is if you will support him personally. Here is to freedom of conscience!

we don't yet know who will run, and freedom of conscience means you speak for yourself, not 'the great majority of the liberty movement'. Rand will likely run. He will get support. He will likely get more support if his supporters understand he has to earn it, and isn't going to get 'the majority of the liberty movement' just by existing, regardless of his actions.
 
Rand Paul's candidacy in 2016 will have historic implications on the scale of Barry Goldwater. If others want to miss the train and complain until the end of time, so be it. Rand has been kicked and dragged through the mud by his supposed allies even before he committed to endorsing Romney. Don't be fooled by the sanction barbs and the contention about the Romney endorsement. They never liked Rand to begin with, which was well-documented when he announced his candidacy as a primary challenger in Kentucky. Rand will keep on trucking without them.

Sadly this is another common lie advanced by the Disciples of Rand. Many of us were very supportive of Rand during his initial campaign.

My initial questions about Rand date back to shorty after he won the GOP nomination. I was speaking to a key member of Rand's team when the subject of war funding came up. I was shocked to discover that the same man who said "I will never vote for an unbalanced budget," had made an unsolicited remark that he would have no problem at all voting for spending on unconstitutional wars and in fact saw it as necessary for political reasons. As someone who sees the issue of the American Empire as aparamount I found this very troubling and it's also why the "opposition to undeclared wars" talking point used to advance the Ted Cruz's of the world does little to assure me that they have any interest in actually trimming away at the warfare state.

Still I was not above voting for Rand for President then. The Iran sanctions vote - apparently irrelevant in the case of Rand though it would be widely condemned if any other politician had cast it in opposition to the principles of the movement that he rode into office on - had me starting to seriously doubt whether I could vote for him, but I still wasn't off the wagon entirely. What did it for me was the fanatical devotion of his delusional followers after the Romney endorsement. Instead of correctly noting that Rand had always vowed to endorse the nominee and admitting that Rand's language, location and timing were perhaps not ideal but still ultimately necessary, the vast majority of his supports touted him as a man of unquestionable integrity, who could not have possibly erred in talking up the "mature foreign policy of Mitt Romney," while lambasting all criticism of the endorsement as vile, divisive, anti-liberty, hate mongering. It was at that point that I realized a significant section of the liberty movement sees Rand as a godlike entity, who's inconsistencies and/or lies can not be discussed by mere mortals because he is really only acting for the greater good, something mere mortals are far too stupid to understand.

My fear is that if Rand Paul becomes the standard bearer we will have another Reagan/Contract for America moment, albeit perhaps not as severe an ideological sellout. When a movement starts out radical in nature, it cannot de-radicalize without losing something. But it is especially bad to try and pretend someone is a hard radical, when at best they are a soft one.

It is bad strategy for Rand to be the candidate of the liberty movement in 2016, because if Rand Paul becomes the defining face of the liberty movement, the movement will go the way of the religious right, i.e. a fully integrated part of the GOP apparatus that gets scraps tossed its way on occasion, while gradually becoming more and more mainstream in character.

The grassroots can not push him because Rand and his handlers don't give a god damn about the grassroots at best and actively loathe them at worst. They want a coalition with the nationalist and traditionalist wings of the GOP and generally assume that the average liberty advocate will support them just because there is no better option. Rand will continue to cast mostly good votes, with mixed rhetoric which makes him a solid vehicle for that sort of coalition building. It does not however make him the best figurehead for the liberty movement, particularly when so many people are unwilling to accept any criticism of his record or rhetoric.
 
we don't yet know who will run, and freedom of conscience means you speak for yourself, not 'the great majority of the liberty movement'. Rand will likely run. He will get support. He will likely get more support if his supporters understand he has to earn it, and isn't going to get 'the majority of the liberty movement' just by existing, regardless of his actions.

I'm not speaking for the great majority of the liberty movement. A branch of mathematics known as statistics is.
 
DylanWaco, your moment of clarity is based on his supporter's actions rather than Rand's? This makes a lot of sense.

Then you proceed to make a lot of non sequitur predictions based on your fears.

Either you trust Rand to continually move things in the direction of liberty or you expect the liberty movement to become absorbed and believe that the liberty movement will merely be exploited on the way to some bastardization of two completely conflicting ideologies. It's really very simple and requires no crystal ball.
 
DylanWaco, your moment of clarity is based on his supporter's actions rather than Rand's? This makes a lot of sense.

Then you proceed to make a lot of non sequitur predictions based on your fears.

Either you trust Rand to continually move things in the direction of liberty or you expect the liberty movement to become absorbed and believe that the liberty movement will merely be exploited on the way to some bastardization of two completely conflicting ideologies. It's really very simple and requires no crystal ball.

I for one, would love to know when Rand planted the seeds for this inevtiable Judas moment??? I think it was when he stared down Dick Cheney at the closed door Senate meeting about the impact of sequesteration. He sold out then by not going along with status quo. He's a real traitor.
 
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DylanWaco, your moment of clarity is based on his supporter's actions rather than Rand's? This makes a lot of sense.

Then you proceed to make a lot of non sequitur predictions based on your fears.

Either you trust Rand to continually move things in the direction of liberty or you expect the liberty movement to become absorbed and believe that the liberty movement will merely be exploited on the way to some bastardization of two completely conflicting ideologies. It's really very simple and requires no crystal ball.

My moment of clarity is a political calculation. It's odd how the supporters of Rand have zero problem with him making overtly political calculations, but when others do the same the suggestion is that it is foolish. Another example of Rand's status as an exalted figure, held to an entirely different standard than anyone else with ties to the movement.

Trusting Rand is entirely predicated on whether or not one believes he is a liar for us. Well, I suppose it is possible to trust in his support for the mature foreign policy of Mitt Romney and acts of war against Iran, but I would guess most of his supporters are hopeful that those statements/votes were pure politics and not accurate expressions of his true feelings. Whichever way you believe - that he really believes everything he says and does which is troubling, or that he is working a "trust me I'm a liar" gimmick which is also troubling - Rand is not beyond criticism. As a purely political matter, associating publicly with those that regard him as a Messianic figure is something I am willing to do, not because I find it personally distasteful, but because I find it politically unwise to hold up Rand as a standard bearer who is beyond all criticism. It's not that hard to grasp.

I have left out the fraud that was the post-SC debate Ron Paul campaign, but at this point it may also be worth noting that that is another reason I found it increasingly difficult to cast my lot with Rand and what I was told about that ordeal guarantees I would never donate a penny to the man's campaign.
 
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I for one, would love to know when Rand planted the seeds for this inevtiable Judas moment??? I think it was when he stared down Dick Cheney at the closed door Senate meeting about the impact of sequesteration. He sold out then by not going along with status quo. He's a real traitor.

I am curious - during communion, what part of Rand's body and fluids do you consume?
 
I am curious - during communion, what part of Rand's body and fluids do you consume?

I am not a disciple. I see the big picture and the alleged game breaking sins that Rand has committed are not even worth mentioning, given the winner-take-all war we are currently engaged in. We have elements of this "movement" crucifying a person who is actually carrying the ball up the field with his principles in tow, as opposed to wallowing in obscurity. The flak that Rand Paul receives on a daily basis is almost sadistic. And I'm certainly not saying that he's above criticism, but his most vocal critics appear to be the ones who come off as the most irrational.
 
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Dylan, it's not really that odd. It's a simple willingness to use the neocon strategy against them and an understanding that he is "our liar" as you would term it. Based on the evidence provided by those who know him personally (his father, brothers, friends, etc.) as the primary indicator of his character, we can be relatively sure of that assessment.

If it is not enough for you, that is fine. I'm not trying to convince you to support him, just begging you to please focus your energies on something other than detracting from his efforts.

I'm a poker player and I've learned to completely ignore what people say. I don't know about the SC thing though. What happened?
 
I was told by someone in the very inner circle of the campaign that the campaign effectively turned into the Rand Paul 2016 infrastructure campaign immediately following the last SC debate where the perception among campaign insiders was that Ron bombed. Some may have no problem with this, but I have a major problem with that sort of dishonesty, particularly when it is known that there is a movement split on Rand. Another insider told me later they knew people would quit donating if the perception was that it was "all about Rand" so they had to keep it quiet.

I wish I believed Rand was "our liar" but it is precisely because of things he has said to people I know in private that I became unsettled with him in the first place. Of course people are free to tout him and point to his positives. I just reject the notion that his negatives should be off the table.
 
I was told by someone in the very inner circle of the campaign that the campaign effectively turned into the Rand Paul 2016 infrastructure campaign immediately following the last SC debate where the perception among campaign insiders was that Ron bombed. Some may have no problem with this, but I have a major problem with that sort of dishonesty, particularly when it is known that there is a movement split on Rand. Another insider told me later they knew people would quit donating if the perception was that it was "all about Rand" so they had to keep it quiet.

I wish I believed Rand was "our liar" but it is precisely because of things he has said to people I know in private that I became unsettled with him in the first place. Of course people are free to tout him and point to his positives. I just reject the notion that his negatives should be off the table.

It was pretty obvious that Ron reached his threshold after Iowa. Making lemonade out of lemons was the only logical next move. You may lose the battle (the primary) but you plan accordingly to win the war. With that said, the campaign should have notified their donors of their strategy instead of leading them along.
 
It was pretty obvious that Ron reached his threshold after Iowa. Making lemonade out of lemons was the only logical next move. You may lose the battle (the primary) but you plan accordingly to win the war. With that said, the campaign should have notified their donors of their strategy instead of leading them along.

Actually, if that happened, saying the goal was to maximize one candidate while taking money to maximize someone else at the expense of NOT maximizing the other sure would seem like fraud to me. And how much did you donate after SC? Because of course the RAND supporters think that was a decent way to go, but those who saw all other candidates as a step down, and Ron as the premier Pied Piper for liberty -- the EXACT people still donating even if the nomination became increasingly unlikely, have every reason to consider that betrayal, IF that is true. And remember, I donated thousands to Rand's campaign and phone banked for him. I was never 'anti Rand'.

Your ASSUMPTION that it may have been true and was 'all good', is not helping matters.
 
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It's funny because, in my mind, this has been the Rand 2016 campaign since sometime in early 2010. It's upsetting that it took them so long to realize it. I still donated all the money and time I could spare for Ron to the 2012 campaign because I didn't see them as mutually exclusive propositions.

Did I think Ron had even a snowball's chance in hell of winning in 2012? No, of course not. Did I see the tremendous value it would provide to the liberty movement? Yes, of course. Did I think Rand was ready in 2012? No, as much as I don't want to wait four more years, it had to happen this way.

Ron's 2012 campaign was just another domino that had to fall. As will the election of Rand in 2016. The end game is liberty and I've been on this big picture trip for a long long time now.
 
That isn't how it was billed and many don't think they are interchangeable or would deliver the same 'liberty'. Some think waking up those ignoring politics (Ron) is the way to go, and they don't necessarily support Rand. Others think Rand is fine after they are foreclosed from having Ron, due to age, but that not one iota of the maximum trajectory of Ron's run for RON'S influence should be lessened, because he is the standard. Who exactly do you think was more likely to have been donating AFTER SC? Those people or those who were just marking time until Rand could run?

again, your assumption really doesn't help matters. You are saying YOU are as fine with Rand as Ron, and it was ok for people to make that same judgment call on behalf of all who donated to RON, regardless of language saying he would run his best race, fight to the end, and the fact that Ron himself actually seemed to be doing that.

I don't know that the campaign actually decided that as a policy matter, although at this point I suspect it, but if it did, I would absolutely consider that unacceptable.
 
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I should make clear that I never thought Ron had any chance in 2012 either and still had no problem supporting him, encouraging people to vote for him, passing out literature, talking to voters about him, et.
 
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