Should Cockfighting Be Legal?

Would you like to see your state legalize cockfighting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 78 58.6%
  • No

    Votes: 55 41.4%

  • Total voters
    133
chickens are different than dogs; dogs are pets, not food. but it should not be encouraged.

I take it you have not heard of places like China and the Philipines? Doggies be food in them parts.

what about two consenting adults fighting to the death? winner get a share of the pay per view

Absolutely legalize it. People that stupid need to be culled from the gene pool. I would welcome this.
 
depends on what country you are in....... those shows on food network of the bald guy eating monkey legs on a stick make you wonder what we will be eating when things are really bad.

Or when China takes over running the USA.

Oh wait...
 
How is it that you are certain of this? On what basis do you assert this?

Assuming it is in fact so, does it therefore follow that we may treat non-human creatures any way we please? Would you object to someone tying a cat up in a public place and skinning it alive? Is there no act that is sufficiently brutal to prompt you to say "no"?

Just wondering.

We may treat them anyway we please, but we are morally obligated as individuals not to be cruel. Social and commercial ostracism is the only method to handle such things., and it already accomplishes this to the extent that 'society' finds it relevant enough. This does not require the existence of animal rights. As for your example about the cat, the food industry does stuff like this and worse to different animals everyday.

If you're truly serious about this, then I suggest you become a vegan and become a vegan political activist. Otherwise, you're just being hypocritical.
 
No it's not. Animals do have limited rights depending on how large and intelligent they are.

For instance a mosquito or cockroach basically gets no rights at all. A rat would get very little rights although we don't want them to experience unnecessary pain. Larger animals like a cat or dog get more, and we don't want people harming them for pleasure etc. Then there is something like a chimpanzee that would be someone like George Bush we'd have to worry about.

WTF? "unnecessary pain?" Is there necessary pain? Size? What has that to do with anything? Small feel no pain? Small merit no consideration of agony? Intelligence? Who determines this? Where do I get one of their crystal balls? I could use some winning lottery numbers.

Seriously - WTF?
 
The latter I think. A dog that mauls a kid is going to be 'put down.'

whic is not always the correct response. In some cases I would seriously consider putting the owner down.

People do not have a right to torture or be unnecessarily cruel to animals; and doing that should be illegal. But cockfighting doesn't really fall under that.

It doesn't? How do you figure?
 
no. animals don't have rights.

Yet, if by some twist of evolution suddenly all animals were to come into possession of the faculty of language and all it implies and by that virtue were able to take over, making us their bitches so to speak, what then? All our talk/belief of "natural rights" and $3.75 would get us latte at Starbucks.

The only reason animals don't have rights is because we say so and we enforce that reality. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking the truth is any nobler than that. It isn't.
 
Yet, if by some twist of evolution suddenly all animals were to come into possession of the faculty of language and all it implies and by that virtue were able to take over, making us their bitches so to speak, what then? All our talk/belief of "natural rights" and $3.75 would get us latte at Starbucks.

The only reason animals don't have rights is because we say so and we enforce that reality. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking the truth is any nobler than that. It isn't.


I don't disagree with you here - but then we must acknowledge then that the concept of rights are a human construct for the purposes of advancing civilization and human prosperity. I'd say that is the only extent to which rights, at all, are legitimate.

Ultimately, and objectively in nature, rights don't even really exist otherwise - whether we're talking about humans or not.

Ultimately, the egoist anarchists have it right and are the true realists in political philosophy. I prefer to adopt the natural rights theory because it serves to foster the maximization of the prosperity for *all* individuals.

Further, in regards to what constitutes the ability to have natural rights in this context... I'd say it's do to sapience - but that's hard to measure. Perhaps Adam Smith was right in referencing the ability to voluntarily trade one's property as the attainment of rights?
 
I can't believe almost 50% of voters on Liberty Forest want the State to initiate violence against people who mistreat their property.

This is precisely how we used to view slaves, before our moral code evolved.

All living, animate things have a natural, self-evident right to self-defense. Many living things are capable of feeling pain. If an animal is capable of feeling pain, it can be morally wronged. Murdering or torturing a living thing that is capable of feeling pain can not be morally justified. Moralism isn't the role of government, but government does have an obligation to ensure that rights are not being trampled, if government has any role whatsoever.

Living things cannot continue to live without eating other living things, thus eating is an act of self-defense and not murder. An animals status as an accepted food source is irrelevant, because humans and pets are just taboo meat. Animals are no more our property than our captive dependents, and certainly you would not suggest that we have the right to brutally murder our children, should we see it fit.

I do not think it should be illegal at any high level, but I most certainly disagree that animals do not have rights. Animals have the same rights as humans, they are just less capable of exercising them.
 
My goal is to please God

Laudable insofar as the statement goes, but to accomplish it you need to know what, if anything, is wanted.


because of the justification that He gives me.
Given through what mechanism? If you say "the bible", I will be most thoroughly disappointed.

In order to please God, I must be faithful.
Faithful as in "true", or as in "blindly believing"?

In order to be faithful, I must enact my faith through works. In order to properly enact my faith through works, I must follow God's law.
Cogent enough, but the truth value of the argument turns fully on the truth value of the suppositions.

God's law is an interesting beast.
This assumes the law of which you speak is, in fact, God's. It may be nothing more than man's arbitrary law with the imprimatur of "God" painted on for effect, which would mean it is nothing better than arbitrary crap designed to serve interests that are not likely to align well with your own.

There's the moral dilemma of having Siamese twins, who are attached to one another. One is healthy, but is losing that health because of a sickly twin that is killing the other. According to sheer utility, one should cut off the twin that is killing the other. The ends would seem to justify the means
If there is good reason to believe that the sickly twin is toast no matter what, then it can be strongly argued from a moral perspective that you are obliged to separate the two if you are able, assuming that preserving life in such manner is some universal mandate with which humans are to comply.

However, God's law does not allow killing of innocent people.
Again you presume the law in question is actually God's - that aside, God's law prohibits murder, which is the unjustifiable taking of innocent life. In this case, the taking of life is eminently justifiable because to do nothing entails allowing another life to be lost unnecessarily.

There is an old addage of the Bushi (samurai) which states:
Satsujin ken, katsujin ken.

"The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life." By killing another in defense of my own life, I give life to myself. In killing to defend the life of another person, through that act I have given life to another. All such transactions are two-way affairs.

Your siamese twins hypothetical is an example of same. It can easily be argued that the only morally correct thing to do is save the life that can be saved. If "God" would have it otherwise, he should have made the wish far more clear to us. But we were given brains, the purposes of which are that they be used for something more than just a hat rack. We were given both emotion and rational thought. If "God" is going to fuck with us in so apparently sadistic a manner, then he can kiss my butt, so sorry. I do not for a moment believe that your assertions about "God's" law are even remotely truthful.

The deaths of the two children is tragic
In the given context, you are Wrong-0. Not tragic: wholly unnecessary. Were those my twins, I would make the decision and I would live with the consequences. If anyone tried to stop me, I would put a bullet 'tween their eyes. If "God" has a roasty place in hell for me in the afterlife, so be it. I will not act in a way that is so apparently idiotic for the sake of pleasing a potentially wholesale-wrong understanding of what "God" wants me to do in such a situation.

Take such argument's as yours to the healthy twin who is dying and see what joy they will feel to know you're doing "God's" work. Sorry, but this stinks like a great steaming pile of self-serving nonsense. Barring conclusive proof that this is actually what "God" wants, this brand of reasoning serves but one purpose in my mind: to absolve people of the responsibility for using the brains given them in ways that make rational sense in the world of human life.

This argument is similar to that used by Mennonites to justify cowardice and the abdication of personal responsibility in self defense situations. A "good" Mennonite will do nothing to prevent someone from harming them. They will do nothing to prevent someone from murdering their children. Poltroons! Their arguments are nonsense-laden bullshit from one end to the other.
murder of one of the children is sinful,
Bull. It is NOT murder. It is an act of defense resulting in the saving of one life rather than allowing the loss of two. This should not be that difficult to comprehend.
so we justify the two children's death
Were the act just, no justification would need be made. This is not justification, it is rationalization of poltroonery and abdication of responsibility. How does your "God" feel about that? If it pleases him, you need a new God.

by the fact that, in order to be faithful, we must follow God's law, for following it is the highest moral ground, even above unfavorable ends to the most extreme extent.
Sure, but you had best be sure you know what God wants. Pardon me, but to hell with any written law that conflicts with my inner sense of right - the law written upon the hearts of all living beings is that which is to be obeyed. When everything that you are is shrieking at you from within to save the life that can be saved, methinks you'd damned well better listen to that and tell anyone waving a book that says otherwise to back the hell off.


The same applies to animals. God would not want us to abuse animals. However, it would be sinful to force another person to stop since animals have no rights.
This is more of the same rationalistic nonsense designed to excuse one from responsible action. If someone came to my place and was going to harm one of my chickens, I would stop them even if I had to kill them. It would have nothing to do with property rights. It would have everything to do with what I know to be right and the defense of a member of my family.

Do I say you are compelled to stop someone from abusing an animal? Not at all. We all make our choices and one day we will all come to learn the ultimate propriety of them. But I am similarly not entirely against the notion of interfering on a good faith basis when the actions of another wander past the boundary of that which is tolerable, come what may as the chips fall.

Ergo, animal abuse is tragic, but coercion and theft of money in order to fund such coercion is sinful.
Profoundly weak argument. It is structurally similar to saying we should let the rapist go because, thankfully, he did not kill his victim. Yeah - HELLO. Animal abuse is not a tolerable act just as murder is not tolerable. Killing animals to eat them is one thing. Tormenting them and damaging them is, by any sane standard, "sinful" as you put it.

My means of being faithful to God justify the ends of this earth.
IMO you need to work on this a bit. But do as you will, of course. Just make sure you don't beat your dog in front of me because you won't have him long thereafter. :)

Luckily for us, we know that, as long as we are faithful, God will count us as righteous.
That is a VERY big assumption - and a very dangerous one. I'd bet money I do not have that you don't know the first thing about "God's" will. Don't feel badly about that - I say the same for every other human walking the earth, myself included.

St. Bernard made mention of Hell being choked full of "good intentions". I for one see no virtue in renouncing my responsibility for using my brain in accord with the most obvious nature born into it. I will choose that over the words of any book, any day. Again, do asyou feel is right, but so shall I.
 
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I do not think it should be illegal at any high level, but I most certainly disagree that animals do not have rights. Animals have the same rights as humans, they are just less capable of exercising them.

So animals have a right to be left alone as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others? That implies you can't kill animals for food and we all should be forced to become vegans. I can't believe I am reading something so stupid at RonPaulForums.
 
What's the Basis?

You're just sorting out the details. Humans are humans so they all get the same rights. This is all common sense though so there is really no point in pointing such things out to you.

The argument that rights are a grey scale is nothing new with regard to animals. It's fairly obvious that a dog gets more rights than mosquito.

What is the source of rights? You keep asserting that one group of animals has more rights than another group of animals, but how do you know that? It's obvious that rights do not come from you, so on what authority can you bestow more rights to a dog but not to a worm? You're just being arbitrary.

By the way, nothing you've stated in this thread has been based on common sense, nor is it obvious fact. So stop making that claim. Saying "humans are humans so they get all the same rights" doesn't affirm anything. Would Hitler hold to that basis for rights when he deemed the Jews less human than the Aryans? I don't think so, but to you, it's "obvious."
 
the concept of rights are a human construct for the purposes of advancing civilization and human prosperity. I'd say that is the only extent to which rights, at all, are legitimate

The concept of rights is a basic, fundamental code that can guide human action in a way that does not bring undue harm to another living thing. It is a simplistic, natural code that is perfectly legitimate.

I think what you are referring to is our legal adaptation of the concept of rights, which is very human, and I would agree that it is of questionable legitimacy. Our legal system of rights is ultimately aimed at removing the rights of those who do not adhere to the code of rights, and there is some circular logic in that.
 
So animals have a right to be left alone as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others? That implies you can't kill animals for food and we all should be forced to become vegans. I can't believe I am reading something so stupid at RonPaulForums.

No.

As I stated, eating is an act of self-defense.

As I further stated, I do not believe it should be illegal at a high level.

Finally, I never advocated force. There was no implication that anyone should be forced to become a vegan.
 
As I stated, eating is an act of self-defense.

Eating is an act of self-defense? No. You act in self-defense when someone attacks you and you attack that person to protect yourself from the attack. According to your definition, if I kill you and cook you and eat you, I'll be acting in self-defense.
 
The concept of rights is a basic, fundamental code that can guide human action in a way that does not bring undue harm to another living thing. It is a simplistic, natural code that is perfectly legitimate.

I think what you are referring to is our legal adaptation of the concept of rights, which is very human, and I would agree that it is of questionable legitimacy. Our legal system of rights is ultimately aimed at removing the rights of those who do not adhere to the code of rights, and there is some circular logic in that.

Although I agree with you here on everything (except where you say 'living thing', I say 'sapient being', ie human beings, not animals, etc)... even fundamental natural rights are ultimately human constructs. Your rights are only enforceable to the extent you can enforce them, otherwise they're just words and can't stop a sword nor a gun nor a majority / lynch mob. And ultimately, unfortunately, reality shows that what someone does in fact have the might to take, they have the right to take. The existence and overgrowth of the State, even with something such as the Constitution trying to limit such things as much as possible, is proof of this.

I adhere to natural rights and negative rights theory (for humans / sapient entities) specifically because of the concept of justice, and believe that a 'controlled demolition' / marketization of the role of government over time (as quickly as possible though) into a purely capitalist society based on private property rights (anarcho-capitalism) is one that would result in the most justice and prosperity, minimizing the impact of 'might-makes-right' through decentralized market mechanisms and accountability systems.
 
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I can't believe almost 50% of voters on Liberty Forest want the State to initiate violence against people who mistreat their property.

and if you were making your children fight to the death I'd advocate the state to initiate violence against you for that. There is a huge difference between a stone and a living, breathing, thinking life form. By your standards, my IQ rates in the top .2%. I should be able to treat any sub intelligent being as property. Now of course that's not what you are exactly saying but this is the slippery slope you have put yourself on. If we want to act like animals maybe we should be treated as animals. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
Eating is an act of self-defense? No. You act in self-defense when someone attacks you and you attack that person to protect yourself from the attack. According to your definition, if I kill you and cook you and eat you, I'll be acting in self-defense.

We can assume you would be legally prosecuted as a murderer if you decided to eat me, but it would hardly be a legitimate prosecution if you killed and ate me while starving in the middle of the nowhere. It would be more desirable to have to eat an animal, as sentient beings typically try not to eat their own type, but ultimately you have 2 choices, eat or die.
 
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