Should Cockfighting Be Legal?

Would you like to see your state legalize cockfighting?

  • Yes

    Votes: 78 58.6%
  • No

    Votes: 55 41.4%

  • Total voters
    133
I agree with many here that say that microwaving your cats for fun and things like that are disgusting and shows that the person who does it is sick. I just add that the people who want to put people in jail for an action that doesn't even hurt humans are even sicker and bigger psychos. There's no justification whatsoever for that, because many humans survive by eating animals. The logical consequence of those who say animals deserve legal protection is that any killing of an animal should be illegal.

You can't see the difference between simply killing and torture? Most can. That's why hunting is enshrined into some states' constitutions as a right while microwaving a live rabbit gets one sent to jail.

It's one thing when it's the animals themselves. Like with cockfighting: the roosters fight on their own. It's quite another when a human takes a defenseless animal and, unprovoked, just tortures the creature. Anyone that screwed up in the head should be confined to a jail cell or a mental hospital regardless of if you think an animal should have the right not to be treated cruelly.
 
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Oh don't be ridiculous. The turning test isn't to prove whether or not something is human,

The Turing test posits that a person interacting with a computer through a terminal such that if the exchanges cannot be differentiated from those one would have with a human at the other end, the machine is effectively intelligent. So yes, it is using human intelligence as the standard. Sure, it could be used with, say, a chimpanzee but that wasn't how the original idea was formulated.

Whether you feel the Turing test is valid or not for determining if a machine is really "intelligent" it would be perfectly valid as applied to another organic being such as a dog, gorilla or dolphin.

Not without making very broad and unsound assumptions about what constitutes intelligence. Just because we may not be able to extract principles of behavior that we deem "intelligent", it does not follow that intelligence is not present. To believe that intelligence holds but one flavor, the human one, is ridiculous. Besides, who says that intelligence is the deciding factor in determining whether animals should be treated with respect?

Says you. I know enough about AI to know that your conclusion is hotly debated.

What does the level of debate have to do with the truth? Flat earth/spherical earth was perhaps hotly debated at one time as well. That did not alter the truth even a whit.

That's nice. But there is nothing in the definition of intelligence that requires life.

From the John Uoft Dictionary of 1785:

INTE'LLIGENCE.

1. Commerce of information ; notice; mutual
communication...
Not what we're looking for.

2. Commerce of acquaintance; terms on
which men live one with another.
Nor that.

3. Spirit; unbodied mind.
4. Understanding.
Now we're getting somewhere.

Definition 3 fits best our context and I would say that life is so very heavily implied.

My AI professor would call you a "carbon chauvinist".

I've heard the term before. Singularly unconvincing. To date, carbon is the only known basis for life. When someone discovers non-carbon based life, I will change my views. Until then it is prudent to work within that which we know to be true insofar as law and policy is concerned. Otherwise, as is with insanity, the sky's the limit and anything goes. I do not think that is a sound basis for living amongst each other.

Before we go any further, let me b clear that there is nothing strident in my tone. This medium of communication can sometimes impart the perception of timbre that is not there. Just reminding you that I'm not trying to beat on you or be otherwise disrespectful. OK? :)

But again that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the point I was making. We're not talking about whether or not machines have the level of intelligence needed to qualify for life.

I think you may have this reversed. If anything, I would consider life as the prerequisite for intelligence.

We're talking about animals! And I proposed a Turing test using animals instead of computers.

OK, but what of it? To assume all intelligence must be readily recognizable by human probing seems too self-serving in its presumptuousness. If we assume animal intelligence is of equal "value" to that of humans (whatever that would really mean), then it would follow that we are currently unable discern it as such. We really have no basis for making such pronouncements of the nature of animal minds.

By contrast we are continually given examples of animals doing interesting things, but nowhere near what humans do, as proof of "animal intelligence".

Once again this presumes that animal intelligence must by necessity "make sense" to humans in terms of nature and degree. This is a dangerously preposterous assumption - one made most transparently for the sake of mere convenience - to excuse the arbitrary treatment of such "inferior" creatures. This smells awfully dishonest to me and possibly even evil, depending on degree.

Sticking with "what we know", we know animals are alive, they seek to remain that way, they avoid injury and pain. We know precious little of the innermost nature of their intelligence, not that that has anything to do with predicating humane treatment. But if it did, so much more the reason to err of the side of respect.

Believe what you will, of course. I see - discern - the life in other beings, human and otherwise. They each have different qualities, even between individuals. My assumptions are made in favor of life and what I feel is the propriety of respecting it. Others feel differently.
 
Anyone that screwed up in the head should be confined to a jail cell or a mental hospital regardless of if you think an animal should have the right not to be treated cruelly.

The proper function of government is to protect individual rights of humans. When someone tortures an animal, no rights are being violated. Thus, no crime has been committed and the person shouldn't go to jail. I'm not going to happily accept -to put it mildly- having my money taken by force from me to punish people who committed no crime. Person A kills animal B, I don't care why, and I have to pay for his prosecution? You could do a comedic routine making that argument!
 
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I agree with many here that say that microwaving your cats for fun and things like that are disgusting and shows that the person who does it is sick. I just add that the people who want to put people in jail for an action that doesn't even hurt humans are even sicker and bigger psychos. There's no justification whatsoever for that, because many humans survive by eating animals. The logical consequence of those who say animals deserve legal protection is that any killing of an animal should be illegal. And if you put the well-being of animals above that of human beings, you are a plain psycho.

Good point. I was thinking this about animal fights: if it is illegal to put two animals in a cage where they may or may not kill each other, then it should certainly be illegal to put humans in a cage (prison) where they may or may not kill each other.
 
Good point. I was thinking this about animal fights: if it is illegal to put two animals in a cage where they may or may not kill each other, then it should certainly be illegal to put humans in a cage (prison) where they may or may not kill each other.

Yes, I agree. Especially considering the amount of innocent people they put in jail today.
 
...it should certainly be illegal to put humans in a cage (prison) where they may or may not kill each other.

What, then, do you propose should be done with violent criminals? Surely you cannot be suggesting that they not be called to account for their actions or that they be let loose among the rest of us, are you?
 
This is precisely how we used to view slaves, before our moral code evolved.

All living, animate things have a natural, self-evident right to self-defense. Many living things are capable of feeling pain. If an animal is capable of feeling pain, it can be morally wronged. Murdering or torturing a living thing that is capable of feeling pain can not be morally justified. Moralism isn't the role of government, but government does have an obligation to ensure that rights are not being trampled, if government has any role whatsoever.

Living things cannot continue to live without eating other living things, thus eating is an act of self-defense and not murder. An animals status as an accepted food source is irrelevant, because humans and pets are just taboo meat. Animals are no more our property than our captive dependents, and certainly you would not suggest that we have the right to brutally murder our children, should we see it fit.

I do not think it should be illegal at any high level, but I most certainly disagree that animals do not have rights. Animals have the same rights as humans, they are just less capable of exercising them.

Good points! It is called "Survival of the fittest". What that means is that when the reptilians come to bar-b-que us, we shouldn't complain.
 
Good points! It is called "Survival of the fittest". What that means is that when the reptilians come to bar-b-que us, we shouldn't complain.
No you can complain all you want up to the final gasp but it sure don't mean you can stop it. Might makes right.
 
What, then, do you propose should be done with violent criminals? Surely you cannot be suggesting that they not be called to account for their actions or that they be let loose among the rest of us, are you?

They should probably be put in cages.
 
The Turing test posits that a person interacting with a computer through a terminal such that if the exchanges cannot be differentiated from those one would have with a human at the other end, the machine is effectively intelligent. So yes, it is using human intelligence as the standard. Sure, it could be used with, say, a chimpanzee but that wasn't how the original idea was formulated.

*facepalm* Oh quit being a blowhard. I said from jump that this wasn't the original Turing test. I know how the Turing test was "originally formulated". This is a modified test.

Not without making very broad and unsound assumptions about what constitutes intelligence. Just because we may not be able to extract principles of behavior that we deem "intelligent", it does not follow that intelligence is not present. To believe that intelligence holds but one flavor, the human one, is ridiculous. Besides, who says that intelligence is the deciding factor in determining whether animals should be treated with respect?

Non sequitur. You're just being silly. Back to the original point, slaves could prove their intelligence by accomplishing tasks that required human intelligence. Might there be a dog intelligence? Of course. In fact I would say for certainty that there is. There's also bee intelligence and ant intelligence. But none of those entities have rights. Trees may also have a kind of intelligence. They can communicate to each other through chemicals that they are under an insect infestation. But most people would agree that tree intelligence has not been shown to the level that trees have rights.

What does the level of debate have to do with the truth? Flat earth/spherical earth was perhaps hotly debated at one time as well. That did not alter the truth even a whit.

:rolleyes: And so who's the arbiter of "truth"? You? Don't make me laugh!

Definition 3 fits best our context and I would say that life is so very heavily implied.

I don't know who the "we" is here. I'm not interested in your dictionary definition nor do I find it relevant or helpful. Reasoning by analogy I gave you an example of how slaves were shown to have intelligence and thus be dserving of rights. If you want to be obtuse because deep down you know animals can't pass the same test then fine. Whatever.

Before we go any further, let me b clear that there is nothing strident in my tone. This medium of communication can sometimes impart the perception of timbre that is not there. Just reminding you that I'm not trying to beat on you or be otherwise disrespectful. OK? :)

Ok.

I think you may have this reversed. If anything, I would consider life as the prerequisite for intelligence.

You aren't the standard of what is or is not intelligence.


OK, but what of it? To assume all intelligence must be readily recognizable by human probing seems too self-serving in its presumptuousness.

No. It's common freaking sense. Before a human court can start recognizing rights based on intelligence that human court has to recognize the intelligence. It's not enough that "Osan" or "Bman" thinks that dog, dolphin, insect, tree, mushroom, virus may be intelligent. You have to prove it to a court.

If we assume animal intelligence is of equal "value" to that of humans (whatever that would really mean), then it would follow that we are currently unable discern it as such. We really have no basis for making such pronouncements of the nature of animal minds.

Find. Then we'll stick to the default. Animals have no rights. Point, set, match.

Once again this presumes that animal intelligence must by necessity "make sense" to humans in terms of nature and degree. This is a dangerously preposterous assumption - one made most transparently for the sake of mere convenience - to excuse the arbitrary treatment of such "inferior" creatures. This smells awfully dishonest to me and possibly even evil, depending on degree.

Dangerous to whom exactly? You? Humanity? The animals? It's "dangerous" to go around making your presumption and is awfully dishonest and even evil depending on degree. Because trees are alive and possess an ability to communicate they might have rights. Because they might have rights then humans can't cut down trees because it might be immoral. So you're going to abrogate property rights based on what you think might be true.
 
Good points! It is called "Survival of the fittest". What that means is that when the reptilians come to bar-b-que us, we shouldn't complain.

What good would complaining do anyway? The only thing to do would be to fight back. Meanwhile, this spring when I kill the Japanese beetles eating my blueberry bushes I will do that with a clear conscience.
 
This is precisely how we used to view slaves, before our moral code evolved.

Except with slaves there was an easy and readily available way to assess their intelligence and realize it was no different from that of free men. I've proposed the same thing for animals, but your side would rather play obtuse mind games. Oh well.
 
on the idiotic comparison to slavery..

it eventually became self evident that slaves can be beneficial to the society when granted equal rights (people wanted increased representation in congress for every black person present in the state, so the argument that they were mere properties fell apart since then the north could also count houses and farms to increase seats following the same logic), and equally threatening when treated with contempt..

they proved that they can help, but they also carry around a big stick. just like how every other human being established himself in the society.

so actually if you are threatening enough, you could become a dictator and enforce your vision (animal still won't have rights. you just take away the rights of humans). all i am saying here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?274053-Should-Cockfighting-Be-Legal&p=3046174&viewfull=1#post3046174) is that your society isn't going to last. so either way YOU LOSE. animals have no rights as long as humans exist. end of story.

did someone also mention "reptilians" might do the same thing to us? so suppose that they do exist and they really give a crap, you think us treating animals differently will make a positive impression on them or something? what if it is seen as a sign of weakness? just sayin', ya' know. you animal rights'ers are ridiculously hilarious

edit: just look at how weak and powerless fetus' are with their inability to prove their future prospect to the mother, and how fast they lose their "rights" when their mothers want to get rid of them. i mean if they came the way of those Christian epiphanies and foretold the future of a multi millionaire before the age of thirty, how many mothers will get rid of them. how about if they could die the deaths of those suicide bombers when their mothers want to have an abortion. "rights"? wow you bet.
 
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Would I like to see my state legalize it? No. I won't be campaigning for it any time soon, although I certainly see the reasoning why some people feel it should be legalized. I'd rather just stay out of the whole debate honestly.
 
Lets totally forget about the second half of your post:p, not to mention making a trophy out of something you killed to eat is a possibility where as the food factor outweighs the pleasure of bloodlust factor.

Fine. I'll take food out of the equation altogether. I visited someone who was an avid hunter. He had all sorts of fully stuffed animals, ostriches, hyenas, you name it. Now maybe he ate the hyena guts before stuffing it. But somehow I doubt that. Should that be illegal? I personally didn't approve of that mind you. His son would also shoot squirrels out the window. He had three in the "See no evil, here no evil, speak no evil" pose. Ban it by the force of law? If you'd do that, fine. I wouldn't do that, but I also wouldn't approve of my sons shooting squirrels just to stuff them.
 
You are honest. Brutal, but honest.

on the idiotic comparison to slavery..

it eventually became self evident that slaves can be beneficial to the society when granted equal rights (people wanted increased representation in congress for every black person present in the state, so the argument that they were mere properties fell apart since then the north could also count houses and farms to increase seats following the same logic), and equally threatening when treated with contempt..

they proved that they can help, but they also carry around a big stick. just like how every other human being established himself in the society.

so actually if you are threatening enough, you could become a dictator and enforce your vision (animal still won't have rights. you just take away the rights of humans). all i am saying here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?274053-Should-Cockfighting-Be-Legal&p=3046174&viewfull=1#post3046174) is that your society isn't going to last. so either YOU LOSE. animals have no rights as long as humans exist. end of story.

did someone also mention "reptilians" might do the same thing to us? so suppose that they do exist and they really give a crap, you think us treating animals differently will make a positive impression on them or something? what if it is seen as a sign of weakness? just sayin', ya' know. you animal rights'ers are ridiculously hilarious

edit: just look at how weak and powerless fetus' are with their inability to prove their future prospect to the mother, and how fast they lose their "rights" when their mothers want to get rid of them. i mean if they came the way of those Christian epiphanies and foretold the future of a multi millionaire before the age of thirty, how many mothers will get rid of them. how about if they could die the deaths of those suicide bombers when their mothers want to have an abortion. "rights"? wow you bet.
 
In order to enjoy a free society, you must tolerate other people, even if you don't like what they are doing.
unless someone here is making the case that roosters have property rights, and thus should not be eaten.
 
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