Shaming Paul Krugman into debating Austrian economics.

[Anti Federalist]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Free-Trade. The reason our children will not have the same opportunities is because of Government imposed restriction on the freedom and liberty of commerce. That is the sole reason.

If that is the sole reason, then why was this nation a mighty engine of innovation, industry and commerce, the likes of which the world had never seen before, under a system of tariffs that paid for a limited fedgov?

And why is this nation now, under a system of essentially no tariffs or sense of national well being with regard to a trade policy, a broke, indebted, hollowed out hull of it's former self on the verge of bankruptcy and collapse?

If that's the sole reason, of course.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Those links did not prevent the inevitable.

Nope, didn't think it would.

 

[low preference guy]

I could go on much more, but AF seems to believe that China is still a slave economy. They aren't.

AF would hilariously keep arguing about the evil chinese government while Bernanke prints his own country into oblivion.

 

[Anti Federalist]

"Managed trade is not free trade"
-Ron Paul

So I can assume you are for the immediate withdrawal from said agencies?

 

[low preference guy]

So I can assume you are for the immediate withdrawal from said agencies?

obviously. they shouldn't have ever existed.

 

[ClayTrainor]

BTW, the pledge count is at $18,000 for this debate. Pretty dam good so far. Im gonna throw in $25 either tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Anti Federalist]

I could go on much more, but AF seems to believe that China is still a slave economy. They aren't. They have atrocious civil liberty record, but their economy policy is actually more market oriented than ours is. If you want production to return to America, then we must correct our socialistic and fascistic economy and turn it into one of laissez-faire.

You do understand that I want to do that as well, don't you?

 

[Anti Federalist]

obviously. they shouldn't have ever existed.

Excellent.

You've taken the first step toward approaching foreign trade from a nationalistic pov.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

If that is the sole reason, then why was this nation a mighty engine of innovation, industry and commerce, the likes of which the world had never seen before, under a system of tariffs that paid for a limited fedgov?

And why is this nation now, under a system of essentially no tariffs or sense of national well being with regard a trade policy, a broke, indebted, hollowed out hull of it's former self on the verge of bankruptcy and collapse?

If that's the sole reason, of course.

I answered this question before and you ignored it.

I know...it certainly can't be that we had 1% the amount of the current regulations, that we had tax burdens of <1% and that private property rights were strictly enforced had nothing whatsoever to do with why our economy flourished, but it was only because we had higher tarriffs that our economy flourished!! You want to see the destruction tariffs caused even with those conditions? Go read some diaries and notes in the South during the time the North enacted massive tariffs on them. It wasn't all swell and dandy roses and sunshine. Why? Because no territory can produce all the goods in abundance that they will ever need. Trade is essential to the increase in standard of living and the Southerners knew this because they had to live through a time where the needed goods were priced out of range because of tariffs. It is why they expressely forbid tariffs in the CSA Constitution.

The reason we have such a horrible economy today is the exact opposite. We have tax rates and burdens > 60%, regulations 10000% amount we had in the 1800s, and all sorts of anti-commerce policies. We are doing as well as we are now because we can trade with other nations. To argue it would be all roses and sunshine if we just enacted trade barriers against other Nations is ridiculously stupid because it defies all economic theory. It is abstractly absurd.

 

[specsaregood]

Selling off our industry, and financing our insane foreign policy through debt (not trade deficits but hard debt in the form of US Treasuries) sold to the Chinese will be the country's undoing.

My children will not have the opportunities you and I have had.

We will become a broken, failed, third world state, incapable of producing anything and lacking any form of self determination.

Ya know, I might compare it to the old saying:
"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"

We are being given "fish" every day on credit. As a result we have forgotten how to fish, our children are never learning to fish and our fishing poles no longer exist. One day the rest of the world will stop giving us fish on credit and we won't have the tools or skills to feed ourselves.

 

[low preference guy]

Excellent.

You've taken the first step toward approaching foreign trade from a nationalistic pov.

please go to the democratic underground

 

[specsaregood]

AF would hilariously keep arguing about the evil chinese government while Bernanke prints his own country into oblivion.

And that is the root. "Free trade" doesn't work when you have the ability to print the world's currency at will......

 

[low preference guy]

And that is the root. "Free trade" doesn't work when you have the ability to print the world's currency at will......

enacting trade barriers makes the situation even worse

 

[specsaregood]

enacting trade barriers makes the situation even worse

maybe so, I pondered about that in another thread but never got any responses. I'm not convinced, and think it might slow the bleeding.

 

[Anti Federalist]

please go to the democratic underground

No need to get shitty.

-rep.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Excellent.

You've taken the first step toward approaching foreign trade from a nationalistic pov.

Yeah, it is better to examine trade policies in a nationalist view, not an economic one. Japan before contact with other nations were far better off. Their standard of living was greater in the 16th Century than it is today...

You know those small Italian-City States with free-trade who flourished? They would have been better off with tariffs. You know Minneapolis? They would be better off if they restricted trade to Florida. On and on and on.

 

[low preference guy]

maybe so, I pondered about that in another thread but never got any responses. I'm not convinced, and think it might slow the bleeding.

i think it just encourages escalation of the trade war and trade barriers by other parties, making your the development of your own industry even harder (even though the main reason that the local industries don't develop is that we can export dollars instead of goods).

trade barriers now would just mean that most things will be more expensive. this will force the gov. to print even more money, so the only positive i can think is the dollar collapse occurring sooner, and i'm not sure that is a positive.

 

[low preference guy]

No need to get shitty.

-rep.

your post i responded to was 4x more condescending.

-rep

 

[Anti Federalist]

I answered this question before and you ignored it.

I know...it certainly can't be that we had 1% the amount of the current regulations, that we had tax burdens of <1% and that private property rights were strictly enforced had nothing whatsoever to do with why our economy flourished, but it was only because we had higher tarriffs that our economy flourished!! You want to see the destruction tariffs caused even with those conditions? Go read some diaries and notes in the South during the time the North enacted massive tariffs on them. It wasn't all swell and dandy roses and sunshine. Why? Because no territory can produce all the goods in abundance that they will ever need. Trade is essential to the increase in standard of living and the Southerners knew this because they had to live through a time where the needed goods were priced out of range because of tariffs. It is why they expressely forbid tariffs in the CSA Constitution.

The reason we have such a horrible economy today is the exact opposite. We have tax rates and burdens > 60%, regulations 10000% amount we had in the 1800s, and all sorts of anti-commerce policies. We are doing as well as we are now because we can trade with other nations. To argue it would be all roses and sunshine if we just enacted trade barriers against other Nations is ridiculously stupid because it defies all economic theory. It is abstractly absurd.

I agree.

What you just stated indicates how tariffs work and what they can do. Look at what they did to the South is right.

So why should we lay down and die as the rest of the world enacts trade policies that benefit them?

I understand your position, I really do, as an anacap you don't believe in the nation state.

I wish I could envision a way in which that could be possible.

But I've been around the world, more than once. I'm much more cynical and jaded about the reality of that prospect and again, I deal with the global aspects of "free trade" every single day. As a direct result of those policies, I am taxed without representation, I am regulated without representation, my time is taken without representation and my liberty is infringed with no due process or redress.

That is every working person's future under the banner of global "free trade".

I remain unconvinced.

 

[low preference guy]

For those who have the energy, you might want to explain how lowering trade barriers unilaterally benefits the country that does it.