SF Circumcision Ban Makes November Ballot

Thanks for providing those links. Any actual studies that are peer reviewed, however? I have no doubt that I could find websites making claims of "shonky" statistics published in "Voodoo Science" magazine, but I otherwise can't take their word any more than I can simply believe your heuristic claims solely on the faith that you're probably a nice guy.

Removing the eyelids would most certainly keratinize the eyes and lead to vision impairment because the eyes require constant lubrication. As noted in my reply just before this, studies do not support the claim that the glans keratinizes any more in circumcised populations than uncircumcised populations.

There are pros and cons inherent to circumcision as there are for any procedure. Leaving the foreskin in place does have its own health risks, as does removing the foreskin. It's the responsibility of the parent to make a personal, informed decision for their child. While I respect your position against circumcision, I do not respect any use of that position to legislate against those who do not agree with your position. That's simply what makes this proposed ban wrong.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the use of circumcision as a treatment option for certain disease (Balanitis, again, is the specific disease I have in mind), and the effects of a ban on the healthcare needs of a patient population.

The glans most certainly keratinizes. This effect makes the glans no longer moist and soft like it is supposed to be (I assume that it is supposed to be moist and soft rather than hardened and dry, from what I read), and supposedly intact males have sensitive glans (I assume the glans is supposed to be sensitive, from what I read), but I don't really know if the glans is really supposed to be sensitive because I am not intact, but people say it is supposed to be, so I would assume that means sensation is lost. The loss of nerves isn't an arguable point -- that definitely equates to less sensation. Less nerves = less sensation.

I did not mean the foreskin in an infant is the size of an index card, I meant in an adult male it is.

If there is a rare medical need for the procedure due to a rare disease, then it is medically justifiable, although I feel they might be able to take less skin than they do or use a less invasive procedure. Otherwise there is no medical reason for it.

If an adult male decides they voluntarily want to be circumcised, I have no problem with that, it is their body and it is their right to do what they please to it. But where you said "It's the responsibility of the parent to make a personal, informed decision for their child." -- No, wrong. It is the responsibility of the individual to make a personal, informed decision for themselves. We own our own bodies, at least until we die -- or unless we're a slave. If a parent decides they don't want you to feel as much touch-sensation on the pads of your fingertips, that doesn't make it right to singe them. Similarly, if the parent wants to reduce the touch-sensation of their child's genitals, that doesn't make it right to cut the most sensitive part off.
 
Last edited:
But your whole argument (the objective part of it, at least-not the even weaker argument that the parents' subjective whim is enough) is that it offers "medical benefits". There is simply no evidence to support your claim.
That's actually inaccurate. Even by the acknowledgment of the AAP and CAP as cited above, there indeed are medical benefits that can evenly justify the risks. The decreased prevalence of specific STI's in the circumcised population is fairly well-documented, and with apologies to Yieu and the links that he provided, I don't see very much authentic literature that suggests otherwise.

Granted, the medical benefits are minor. So are the risks. That is what makes circumcision a situation suitable for the parents' decision-making. It's not a "subjective whim", as you suggest. It is an informed decision to be made.
 
Out of my most legitimate curiosity (and I asked this in a previous post, but it was unfortunately not addressed), if a child is born with superfluous digits, do you see it as the same denial of liberty for the parent to have them surgically removed? By the same argument, if God didn't want the child to have additional fingers, the child would not have been born without them.

And indeed, the removal of extra digits would be maligned by removal of viable tissue, each with their own sensation, blood supply, lymphatic system, Langerhans cells, risk of affecting neighboring digits. Would that make this procedure anti-liberty?

I am pretty sure that you know the normal human body has 10 fingers, 10 toes, and 1 foreskin. This is the natural state of a human body. It is not the same to remove digits that are not natural to the human body and to remove the foreskin, which performs sexual functions of sensation. If the digits aren't harming the child, I don't see a problem with leaving them there, but cutting off a normal part of the body (a foreskin) is different. I am not saying that I advocate cutting off extra digits, do not misconstrue what I am saying as that -- I am not advocating that. I am merely stating that cutting the foreskin is worse and does more harm. Cutting off extra digits does not cause one to not be able to fully experience what the most sensitive part of their body is supposed to naturally feel like. And saying that is also not the same as advocating cutting off digits, either. What's that oath... first, do no harm? Unless the digits were causing a medical or physical problem, I would leave them. Same goes for the foreskin, except that it is extremely rare for there to be an actual medical issue with it, and less invasive measures can be taken instead.

Also this:

This isn't a very good analogy to make in the first place, as a foreskin is NOT superfluous.
 
Last edited:
That's actually inaccurate. Even by the acknowledgment of the AAP and CAP as cited above, there indeed are medical benefits that can evenly justify the risks. The decreased prevalence of specific STI's in the circumcised population is fairly well-documented, and with apologies to Yieu and the links that he provided, I don't see very much authentic literature that suggests otherwise.

Granted, the medical benefits are minor. So are the risks. That is what makes circumcision a situation suitable for the parents' decision-making. It's not a "subjective whim", as you suggest. It is an informed decision to be made.

Cutting off the most pleasurable part of the body to maybe, potentially, perhaps, slightly reduce the risk of diseases that can be avoided by lifestyle decisions does not sound very reasonable or logical. This type of logic is similar to the logic behind cutting off the penis at birth because they might, perhaps, maybe rape someone when they grow up. Teaching the child good behavior is much more reasonable than doing him real harm -- reducing the sensation he can feel for the rest of his life -- for fears of things that are preventable by actions and choices. Might as well cut off your hands -- you might steal something.

Or, to adapt an argument that I loved that Ron Paul used in the recent debate to this situation (the heroin answer): "Who here would suddenly become so promiscuous that they get an STD if their parents didn't have them circumcised? Oh, yeah, if my parents didn't cut off my foreskin I'd go around sleeping with all kinds of girls getting STDs, so I need this circumcision to protect myself from myself!!"
 
The glans most certainly keratinizes. This effect makes the glans no longer moist and soft like it is supposed to be (I assume that it is supposed to be moist and soft rather than hardened and dry, from what I read), and supposedly intact males have sensitive glans (I assume the glans is supposed to be sensitive, from what I read), but I don't really know if the glans is really supposed to be sensitive because I am not intact, but people say it is supposed to be, so I would assume that means sensation is lost. The loss of nerves isn't an arguable point -- that definitely equates to less sensation. Less nerves = less sensation.
I respect your disagreement with the peer-reviewed study that I linked you to. If you can support your claim that the glans keratinizes significantly more in the circumcised population compared to the uncircumcised population, I certainly welcome it.

Your argument certainly makes sense as a logical approach. Indeed, loss of nerves means there are less impulses firing. The question is whether the difference is actually noticeable to the male. People who undergo abdominal surgery frequently have a transient loss of sensation that largely goes unnoticed. In the same fashion, I agree that there is quantitative sensation loss, but not significant qualitative sensation loss. For someone undergoing sexual activity, it's qualitative sensation loss that matters to the male.

I did not mean the foreskin in an infant is the size of an index card, I meant in an adult male it is.
Understood.

If there is a rare medical need for the procedure due to a rare disease, then it is medically justifiable, although I feel they might be able to take less skin than they do or use a less invasive procedure. Otherwise there is no medical reason for it.
I appreciate your answer. My follow-up question is what you think the implications of a circumcision ban, written by politicians who largely consist of lawyers (with limited medical understanding, likely to overlook the possibility of a therapeutic value to circumcision), would be.

Of course, I'm likely beating a dead horse with that point, since I've already noticed your posts acknowledging that legislation isn't as desirable as public education. I just feel inclined to make the point why I feel this ban proposal is a poor idea.

If an adult male decides they voluntarily want to be circumcised, I have no problem with that, it is their body and it is their right to do what they please to it. But where you said "It's the responsibility of the parent to make a personal, informed decision for their child." -- No, wrong. It is the responsibility of the individual to make a personal, informed decision for themselves. We own our own bodies, at least until we die -- or unless we're a slave. If a parent decides they don't want you to feel as much touch-sensation on the pads of your fingertips, that doesn't make it right to singe them. Similarly, if the parent wants to reduce the touch-sensation of their child's genitals, that doesn't make it right to cut the most sensitive part off.
To be frank, parents are indeed responsible for their child's health decisions. Indeed it's the responsibility of the individual to make personal informed decisions for themselves. In a child, that is not an option. I would argue that the risks of circumcision are actually higher as an adult than they are as children, largely for reasons that were outlined in a link you provided earlier. While my experience in infant circumcision has been that anesthetic is not used, my experience in observing adult circumcision is that generalized anesthetic (with its complications inherent) is always used. As you mentioned, the amount of tissue removed in an adult is larger than the infant, making infection and bleeding a higher risk. While there are arguable pros and cons to circumcision as an infant, there is definitive less risk in doing the procedure as an infant over doing the procedure as an adult.
 
I respect your disagreement with the peer-reviewed study that I linked you to. If you can support your claim that the glans keratinizes significantly more in the circumcised population compared to the uncircumcised population, I certainly welcome it.

Your argument certainly makes sense as a logical approach. Indeed, loss of nerves means there are less impulses firing. The question is whether the difference is actually noticeable to the male. People who undergo abdominal surgery frequently have a transient loss of sensation that largely goes unnoticed. In the same fashion, I agree that there is quantitative sensation loss, but not significant qualitative sensation loss. For someone undergoing sexual activity, it's qualitative sensation loss that matters to the male.

I don't think you quite got what I was trying to say subtly (said subtly because it is awkward to say). I was speaking from personal experience in that quote you were quoting. The glans is not a part that is very sensitive, but I hear that it is sensitive for intact males. I can thus conclusively state that it causes there to be less sensation.

To be frank, parents are indeed responsible for their child's health decisions.

Yes, parents are responsible for their child's health decisions. But surgical removal of a healthy foreskin is as much of a health decision as singeing fingertips or removing eyelids. It is not a health decision. It is a personal, individual preference decision; a decision not related to health, but to cosmetic preference -- and that fact makes it a decision that only the individual can make, and not their parents. I do not believe parents have the right to make permanent alterations to their child's body based on cosmetic preference, as it may not even be the child's cosmetic preference, and it reduces their sensation.

Did you know this? That circumcision was pushed in the early 1900's as a 'cure' for masturbation, because they figured if the person feels less down there, they're less likely to masturbate. So they removed the most sensitive part, with the intent that the child would not feel the natural sensation that God intended them to.
 
Last edited:
I am pretty sure that you know the normal human body has 10 fingers, 10 toes, and 1 foreskin. This is the natural state of a human body. It is not the same to remove digits that are not natural to the human body and to remove the foreskin, which performs sexual functions of sensation. If the digits aren't harming the child, I don't see a problem with leaving them there, but cutting off a normal part of the body (a foreskin) is different. I am not saying that I advocate cutting off extra digits, do not misconstrue what I am saying as that -- I am not advocating that. I am merely stating that cutting the foreskin is worse and does more harm. Cutting off extra digits does not cause one to not be able to fully experience what the most sensitive part of their body is supposed to naturally feel like. And saying that is also not the same as advocating cutting off digits, either. What's that oath... first, do no harm? Unless the digits were causing a medical or physical problem, I would leave them. Same goes for the foreskin, except that it is extremely rare for there to be an actual medical issue with it, and less invasive measures can be taken instead.
Who is saying that the natural state of the human body is ten fingers and ten toes? Is it God, or is it you attempting to interpret God? Your argument is that the child is born with viable tissue with cells that provide functionality, and that to remove these viable tissue without the consent of the child as an adult would be anti-liberty. If God has given a child an extra digit, is the parent at liberty to have it surgically removed?

And much like foreskin, indeed, there's minimal medical benefit to removing the extra digits. There's also minimal risk (which satisfies the oath of "Do no harm"). And similarly, waiting until adulthood increases the risk of the actual procedure. Is it really "doing no harm" to wait?

I would also like to make mention that it's not all that "extremely rare" for there to be a medical issue requiring circumcision. As a comparative example, Wegener's Granulomatosis is a commonly tested disease for doctors in training, but I have yet to see a case of it in person (and indeed, it is a rare disease). Balanitis is a disease that I've never really been tested on, but I've seen quite a few cases of it. It composes 10% of urology clinic visits, which is a pretty significant amount.
 
Who is saying that the natural state of the human body is ten fingers and ten toes? Is it God, or is it you attempting to interpret God? Your argument is that the child is born with viable tissue with cells that provide functionality, and that to remove these viable tissue without the consent of the child as an adult would be anti-liberty. If God has given a child an extra digit, is the parent at liberty to have it surgically removed?

And much like foreskin, indeed, there's minimal medical benefit to removing the extra digits. There's also minimal risk (which satisfies the oath of "Do no harm"). And similarly, waiting until adulthood increases the risk of the actual procedure. Is it really "doing no harm" to wait?

I would also like to make mention that it's not all that "extremely rare" for there to be a medical issue requiring circumcision. As a comparative example, Wegener's Granulomatosis is a commonly tested disease for doctors in training, but I have yet to see a case of it in person (and indeed, it is a rare disease). Balanitis is a disease that I've never really been tested on, but I've seen quite a few cases of it. It composes 10% of urology clinic visits, which is a pretty significant amount.

Are you saying that most humans do not have 10 fingers, and 10 toes?

If this 'extra digit' was what allowed them to experience sexual pleasure, then maybe it would be comparable -- but as it is, the argument is not comparable.

Even if there is 'minimal risk' in circumcision, it still removes the ability to feel the normal amount of sensation, and that alone makes it unacceptable. I'd even be brave enough to go so far as to say the real and ultimate reason for circumcision behind all the propaganda 'medical' excuses (not reasons) is to reduce sexual sensation. And I consider that doing harm.
 
230518_194573663920588_121502171227738_534608_868349_n.jpg
 
I don't think you quite got what I was trying to say subtly (said subtly because it is awkward to say). I was speaking from personal experience in that quote you were quoting. The glans is not a part that is very sensitive, but I hear that it is sensitive for intact males. I can thus conclusively state that it causes there to be less sensation.
Understood. Your personal experience is your own, and shapes your opinions. Your experience is that your glans is not that sensitive. In this regard, however, I might suggest that you are expecting more sensitivity from an uncircumcised penis than there really is. Speaking from my own personal experience, it's not the stimulation of the foreskin that derives sensation.

Yes, parents are responsible for their child's health decisions. But surgical removal of a healthy foreskin is as much of a health decision as singeing fingertips or removing eyelids. It is not a health decision. It is a personal, individual preference decision -- and that fact makes it a decision that only the individual can make, and not their parents.
I simply cannot agree with your comparisons after having looked up the data. Your comparison to removing eyelids is based on the belief that a circumcised penis keratinizes more than an uncircumcised penis. Based on the publication I provided, this does not appear to be a substantiated claim. Your comparison to singing fingertips is based on the belief that a circumcised penis has a qualitative decrease in sexual sensation. Again, based on publications provided, this is at best debatable.

What it truly is, is a procedure that has minimal risk attached to it, but with equally minimal medical benefit. The risks and benefits are to be weighed to make a proper decision, and that sort of decision-making individualizes the choice in such a way that legislating it is most certainly anti-liberty.
 
That's actually inaccurate. Even by the acknowledgment of the AAP and CAP as cited above, there indeed are medical benefits that can evenly justify the risks. The decreased prevalence of specific STI's in the circumcised population is fairly well-documented, and with apologies to Yieu and the links that he provided, I don't see very much authentic literature that suggests otherwise.

Granted, the medical benefits are minor. So are the risks. That is what makes circumcision a situation suitable for the parents' decision-making. It's not a "subjective whim", as you suggest. It is an informed decision to be made.

Actually, the "benefits" you mention are not well documented. To the contrary, actually. That is why no major, reputable medical organization recommends the procedure routinely. It is in fact a subjective whim. This is why you'd be hard-pressed to find any other country in which neo-natal circumcision is "normalized". There exists NO medical reason for the procedure except for EXTREMELY rare complications.
 
Speaking from my own personal experience, it's not the stimulation of the foreskin that derives sensation.

Your comparison to singing fingertips is based on the belief that a circumcised penis has a qualitative decrease in sexual sensation.

Of course, it is not the only aspect to what derives sexual sensation. But it is an aspect, nonetheless. I do have sensation, but I suspect it would be more had I not been harmed.

The risks and benefits are to be weighed to make a proper decision, and that sort of decision-making individualizes the choice in such a way that legislating it is most certainly anti-liberty.

Legislating it may be anti-liberty to a degree, but performing routine infant circumcision (and RIC is the kind I've been talking about the whole time here) is even more anti-liberty, because it deprives the individual of the right to his own body. And usually that right is deprived from the child by their own parents! This can cause one to think emotions other than 'love' or 'my best interest' were involved in this harming process, even though most of the parents who have it done do not think about it, they just figure 'eh, it's what people do' and then do it, casually.
 
Are you saying that most humans do not have 10 fingers, and 10 toes?

If this 'extra digit' was what allowed them to experience sexual pleasure, then maybe it would be comparable -- but as it is, the argument is not comparable.

Even if there is 'minimal risk' in circumcision, it still removes the ability to feel the normal amount of sensation, and that alone makes it unacceptable. I'd even be brave enough to go so far as to say the real and ultimate reason for circumcision behind all the propaganda 'medical' excuses (not reasons) is to reduce sexual sensation. And I consider that doing harm.
Ah, please don't put words in my mouth. I have not said "that most humans do not have 10 fingers, and 10 toes". What I have said is that some children are born with more. Who are you to tell me that God did not give these children an additional digit? You are merely taking an observation based on frequency in other children, and somehow interpreting that as God's will. Is that appropriate?

I don't think that dismissing the comparison because it does not involve sexual pleasure is at all an accurate move. You make the comparison yourself to singing fingers, acknowledging that fingers are a part of the body with a high density of sensory innervation. By your own attempts at making an analogy, you acknowledge that mine has to at least be as comparable.

Your basis against circumcision in this post continues to be on the alleged "decrease in sensation" caused by circumcision. Again, studies do not strongly support this claim. Indeed there are studies that do come to that conclusion, but (as I have already provided) there are studies that come to the opposite conclusion. The majority of studies on the subject come to the conclusion that there is no difference. If this is what you base your argument on what makes circumcision "unacceptable", I have to make the point that the evidence isn't there to back it up.
 
Actually, the "benefits" you mention are not well documented. To the contrary, actually. That is why no major, reputable medical organization recommends the procedure routinely. It is in fact a subjective whim. This is why you'd be hard-pressed to find any other country in which neo-natal circumcision is "normalized". There exists NO medical reason for the procedure except for EXTREMELY rare complications.

Yes, this is correct. We are arguing against RIC here -- routine infant circumcision. I don't have a problem with it being done for legitimate (and rare) medical complications or for religious purposes (which is limited to Judaism and Islam -- it is not a part of Christianity, Christ ended that practice for Christians).
 
Back
Top