Serious misgivings about this march idea

[Tarzan]

I have some concerns about this march. Before I get absolutely flamed please keep in mind that Ron Paul said in his message that “I’m throwing this out as an idea”.

Here are my concerns, in no particular order:
1. If the event is held at the end of May (RP suggested 3-4 months from now) only four states would remain in the primary schedule and we would have no effect in the states that have already voted.
2. I don’t see a clear purpose to this march. Are we trying to affect government change… help elect Ron Paul… get media exposure? I am truly at a loss as to the purpose and the results we expect to achieve. The media has done a terrific job of ignoring us… I expect they will do a similar job in ignoring us with such a march.
3. To have any sort of success we would have to have some very large numbers… probably 100,000 or more. If we fail in having a very large group the effort will look like a failure and could spell the end of our efforts. Such a failure could be so disheartening as to spell the end of this budding movement… to restore a constitutionally based government.
4. Organizing such an event is hard work and a difficult task. Thus far, we have not seen any such ability from the official campaign or the grassroots. Take a look at the anti-Vietnam rallies… organizing and coordination of such an event is quite challenging.
5. Avoiding usurpers will be a major challenge. Without a clearly defined purpose we are already seeing varying causes and speakers being proposed. The mix includes a range from Socialists to Libertarians. This presents the very real danger of the march being appropriated for groups with interests I do not share.
6. Using the anti-Vietnam rallies as an example there will be a mix of people and groups. We may not all share the same intentions at such an event. I am concerned that we would not appear as a serious group who’s ideas are worthy of consideration if the event is marred by “single issue” groups or those already planning disruptive and illegal acts.
7. Marches are historically ineffective. Take a look at the history… there have been many marches on Washington and most of them have been forgotten and produced little or no meaningful results. Even the “March on Washington for Jobs & Freedom” did not result in any immediate changes and estimates place the number of marchers at 250,000. Consider the results of “The Million Man March”, the “Lesbian & Gay Rights” marches, the “March Against the Iraq War”. All had limited results in affecting government change compared to the effort and expenditure. I know this is arguable… but go have a look at the actual direct results of previous marches. The only effective results have come after years of continued effort rather than a single big event.
8. The cost versus results does not add up for me. If 100,000 attended and their average cost for travel, food & lodging was $250 each (which I think is very conservative) we would be looking at a total expenditure of $25,000,000.00. I think we could get much better results with 25 Million by focusing on getting Ron Paul “clones” elected to congress or by educating others.
9. For quite a few people traveling to DC is just out of the question. Taking time off from work, family issues, the costs are also major hurdles that many will not be able to overcome.

It would be great to meet other constitutionally minded folks… to know that we are not alone and see the power of what could become an actual movement. I am gravely concerned about the risk versus return and am not convinced a “March on Washington” is in our best interests.

I am REALLY not trying to be a naysayer. I would appreciate it if someone could provide convincing arguments as to why the march would be a good thing.

 

[biles1234]

I totally agree with you. Like Dr. Paul said, it is a "risk"

It is more about the statement that we would be making. This has the potential to be an epic event to define our generation like the marches back in the '60s.

We are not going to win the election with this march but such an effort would make the country take us seriously and inspire countless people.

 

[Joseph Hart]

1. Primary's don't matter anymore
2. The purposes is to get definitive media attention. I question your supporter status for asking.
3. Ron Paul said we should march, there will be a march. 100k on the meetups but I think 500k+ will show.
4. Organizing? Call a date we will show. This is a ridiculous statement. This message is the most important message in the world. Get a grip. I question your integrity to spread the message.
5. We will all have to agree to disagree. But more importantly, we will agree on the purpose of showing up to the march. For god's sake its Ron Paul calling it on, so if you don't support his message don't show. I question your support again.
6. Doesn't matter what groups show up. I hope that all show. This is why RP didn't give white supremacy groups back thier money from donations. Its the message.
7. Only marches that you participate in are not historical.
8. Money is not an issue. A presidential candidate ordered a march. Thats history and will generate more coverage than any old rally. But you see... this isnt a rally. Its a MARCH. Not some little rally.
9. IF the message is strong enough people will show. You questioning it probably means you wont show... THANK GOD! Work, family issues, costs wont matter when were all in the FEMA camps.

There is no risk in this march. Im glad your so patriotic inwhich that you dont believe in this movement, this soon to be historical March in Washington is not in our best interests. Thanks.

You are a naysayer by even bringing them up. Im seriously questioning your Trust in Ron Paul.

 

[Ronin]

I think the purpose is to make sure we don't scatter after the primaries. It unites us and keeps us working strong as a team. It's not about short term money, media, or influence. It's about rallying around the message of freedom and energizing us for November.

That's just how I see it. YMMV.

 

[Winston]

I have some concerns about this march. Before I get absolutely flamed please keep in mind that Ron Paul said in his message that “I’m throwing this out as an idea”.

Here are my concerns, in no particular order:

1. If the event is held at the end of May (RP suggested 3-4 months from now) only four states would remain in the primary schedule and we would have no effect in the states that have already voted.

2. I don’t see a clear purpose to this march. Are we trying to affect government change… help elect Ron Paul… get media exposure? I am truly at a loss as to the purpose and the results we expect to achieve. The media has done a terrific job of ignoring us… I expect they will do a similar job in ignoring us with such a march.

These questions are linked. The purpose is to provide a culminating springboard to keep the rEVOLution alive even long after this election is over. It is important to do this even when it will not effect the election because we need to understand that this is not and never was about this election alone, but creating a lasting movement. If we succeed in this march it will create a lasting image that all of us and those who come later can identify with. In Sociology they call "Group Actualization" meaning the group realizes that it is in fact a group. We need to do this now that we have the numbers and before we splinter off into whatever pattern we were all in before.

3. To have any sort of success we would have to have some very large numbers… probably 100,000 or more. If we fail in having a very large group the effort will look like a failure and could spell the end of our efforts. Such a failure could be so disheartening as to spell the end of this budding movement… to restore a constitutionally based government.

This is the fear of any battle, no? If we had lost Normandy many believe we would have lost Europe. Same with the battle of the bulge. In social movements, there is OFTEN losses and setbacks, but in the end if the principles are right and the people are dedicated, they have won. Look how long it took for Gandhi to get the Brits to let go of India. Fear of defeat will always bring defeat.

4. Organizing such an event is hard work and a difficult task. Thus far, we have not seen any such ability from the official campaign or the grassroots. Take a look at the anti-Vietnam rallies… organizing and coordination of such an event is quite challenging.

Have you read what the meetupgroups did at the caucuses in Lousiana? The party had to change (and violate) their own rules to stop them from being the ONLY candidate with a full slate of delegates. LA's caucus rules are some of the most complicated in the country and yet through hard work, smart work, and dedication they had the establishment reeling.

5. Avoiding usurpers will be a major challenge. Without a clearly defined purpose we are already seeing varying causes and speakers being proposed. The mix includes a range from Socialists to Libertarians. This presents the very real danger of the march being appropriated for groups with interests I do not share.

You may not share their specific cause, but that is not important. What is important is that they support Ron Paul and and Constitutionalism. No?

or those already planning disruptive and illegal acts.

Is this not a risk for any march or protest? the key is to police ourselves and to stop troublemakers and possibly report them as soon as we notice them. Bring cameras, document everything. In fact, I think there should be a task force specifically to design ways to stop this. They can then dissemenate the material to the rest of us and also operate during the march itself.

7. Marches are historically ineffective. Take a look at the history…

I disagree and suggest that perhaps you simply do not see the effectiveness. Does a march immediately change policy? No. Neither does a single election cycle...so then should we not vote? Marches are all about creating a lasting image both in the minds of the participants as well as on lookers and of course for students of history. I would point you to Gandhi's historical march to the sea to make a handful of salt. The Brits said exactly hat you did, "let him make his little bit of salt." But it ignited a wave of people against the salt tax. It united the people and firmed up their resolve.

The only effective results have come after years of continued effort rather than a single big event.

not "rather than" but "in addition to". Every journey begins with one step. Every battle begins with one shot. We need to come together in a defining moment that is for the movement, not merely for an election. This is it.

8. The cost versus results does not add up for me. If 100,000 attended and their average cost for travel, food & lodging was $250 each (which I think is very conservative) we would be looking at a total expenditure of $25,000,000.00. I think we could get much better results with 25 Million by focusing on getting Ron Paul “clones” elected to congress or by educating others.

The march, if successful would go a long way to do just that. If we do not do something to continue to bring the Ron Paul supporters together irrespetive of the actual election we are in danger of retreating back to our lives as they were prior to the election. This chance for us to go out and continue the fight together for the simple sake of standing there and heralding the movement. This will go a long way in keeping our movement going.

9. For quite a few people traveling to DC is just out of the question. Taking time off from work, family issues, the costs are also major hurdles that many will not be able to overcome.

Sure. Which is why I dont excpect 6-10% of every state's registered voters will show up (Paul's average showing in the primaries). A great suggestion by a person who is looking for solutions (rather than just identifying problems) suggested that if someone couldnt make it to the DC march, they go to their state capital. This might even be more impressive to have 50 state capitals as well as US capital visited by RP supporters.

It would be great to meet other constitutionally minded folks… to know that we are not alone and see the power of what could become an actual movement.

That is EXACTLY why is MUST happen. If we dont do it soon we will have lost our chance to keep the momentum going.

I am REALLY not trying to be a naysayer. I would appreciate it if someone could provide convincing arguments as to why the march would be a good thing.

I hope this helps.

 

[DahuiHeeNalu]

1. Primary's don't matter anymore
2. The purposes is to get definitive media attention. I question your supporter status for asking.
3. Ron Paul said we should march, there will be a march. 100k on the meetups but I think 500k+ will show.
4. Organizing? Call a date we will show. This is a ridiculous statement. This message is the most important message in the world. Get a grip. I question your integrity to spread the message.
5. We will all have to agree to disagree. But more importantly, we will agree on the purpose of showing up to the march. For god's sake its Ron Paul calling it on, so if you don't support his message don't show. I question your support again.
6. Doesn't matter what groups show up. I hope that all show. This is why RP didn't give white supremacy groups back thier money from donations. Its the message.
7. Only marches that you participate in are not historical.
8. Money is not an issue. A presidential candidate ordered a march. Thats history and will generate more coverage than any old rally. But you see... this isnt a rally. Its a MARCH. Not some little rally.
9. IF the message is strong enough people will show. You questioning it probably means you wont show... THANK GOD! Work, family issues, costs wont matter when were all in the FEMA camps.

There is no risk in this march. Im glad your so patriotic inwhich that you dont believe in this movement, this soon to be historical March in Washington is not in our best interests. Thanks.

You are a naysayer by even bringing them up. Im seriously questioning your Trust in Ron Paul.

This man has said it best!!!

 

[gerryb]

Look at the list of speakers people are requesting http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=119306

If half of those people requested could be in attendance and speak, it would be worth a plane ticket for many people. Many won't be able to make it, but I expect anyone on the East Coast from NY to North Carolina to be able to make it if they don't have work. Renting buses or other mass transportation isn't cheap, but split amongst a meetup should be able to get anyone on the east coast there for $30 each.

This is a rally/march for Ideas, not simply a man.

 

[Tarzan]

I hope this helps.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply... it helped a little.

 

[-lotus-]

I think the purpose is to make sure we don't scatter after the primaries. It unites us and keeps us working strong as a team. It's not about short term money, media, or influence. It's about rallying around the message of freedom and energizing us for November.

That's just how I see it. YMMV.

BINGO!

Imagine, 500+ freedom lovers, meeting in the capital of the free world in a show of support for this message. Imagine all the exchange of information at such an event. How many new contacts will everyone make after this? How much harder is it going to be for the government or the mass media to effectively mind-control us after this day?


I cant wait.

 

[Tarzan]

You are a naysayer by even bringing them up. Im seriously questioning your Trust in Ron Paul.

Thanks for your reply. It certainly lets me know where to file your "grassroots HQ" idea.

 

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

2. The purposes is to get definitive media attention. I question your supporter status for asking.

I question that purpose. What if Huckabee tells a joke that day or something? We would have been way better off it it were us ignoring media from the start. All of our best work was done person to person.

1. Primary's don't matter anymore

I question your supporter status for saying that. Weird how easy that is, huh?


I share some concerns with the OP. I'm planning to show up. I can't imagine a circumstance where I wouldn't.

 

[ronpaulblogsdotcom]

I dont see any of your list as very serious. Except number 8. But again this would be great time for people running to speak in front of a damn big audience.

Video tape it for their campaign. Get them totally pumped. And meet a few thousand people who would back them and possibly donate.

Think of it a big ass educational party. I want to meet a lot of the people from the movement in person. I want to see these people speak.

Almost everyone takes vacations. Let this be your vacation this year.

 

[Tarzan]

BINGO!

Imagine, 500+ freedom lovers, meeting in the capital of the free world in a show of support for this message. Imagine all the exchange of information at such an event. How many new contacts will everyone make after this? How much harder is it going to be for the government or the mass media to effectively mind-control us after this day?

I cant wait.

Thanks lotus & ronin... yes, I can see this in my head as well. But I am very concerned about this event being successful in all those regards... if it is not it could result in the end of a possible movement... and I say "possible" because I do not think we have reached the critical mass of becoming a movement... yet.

But...
IF... we can get the numbers and media coverage
IF... we can get some serious planning & organization by proven leaders
IF... we can have a clear and prepared path for AFTER the event
I can see the value in having The March.

 

[humanic]

I have some concerns about this march. Before I get absolutely flamed please keep in mind that Ron Paul said in his message that “I’m throwing this out as an idea”.

Here are my concerns, in no particular order:
1. If the event is held at the end of May (RP suggested 3-4 months from now) only four states would remain in the primary schedule and we would have no effect in the states that have already voted.
2. I don’t see a clear purpose to this march. Are we trying to affect government change… help elect Ron Paul… get media exposure? I am truly at a loss as to the purpose and the results we expect to achieve. The media has done a terrific job of ignoring us… I expect they will do a similar job in ignoring us with such a march.
3. To have any sort of success we would have to have some very large numbers… probably 100,000 or more. If we fail in having a very large group the effort will look like a failure and could spell the end of our efforts. Such a failure could be so disheartening as to spell the end of this budding movement… to restore a constitutionally based government.
4. Organizing such an event is hard work and a difficult task. Thus far, we have not seen any such ability from the official campaign or the grassroots. Take a look at the anti-Vietnam rallies… organizing and coordination of such an event is quite challenging.
5. Avoiding usurpers will be a major challenge. Without a clearly defined purpose we are already seeing varying causes and speakers being proposed. The mix includes a range from Socialists to Libertarians. This presents the very real danger of the march being appropriated for groups with interests I do not share.
6. Using the anti-Vietnam rallies as an example there will be a mix of people and groups. We may not all share the same intentions at such an event. I am concerned that we would not appear as a serious group who’s ideas are worthy of consideration if the event is marred by “single issue” groups or those already planning disruptive and illegal acts.
7. Marches are historically ineffective. Take a look at the history… there have been many marches on Washington and most of them have been forgotten and produced little or no meaningful results. Even the “March on Washington for Jobs & Freedom” did not result in any immediate changes and estimates place the number of marchers at 250,000. Consider the results of “The Million Man March”, the “Lesbian & Gay Rights” marches, the “March Against the Iraq War”. All had limited results in affecting government change compared to the effort and expenditure. I know this is arguable… but go have a look at the actual direct results of previous marches. The only effective results have come after years of continued effort rather than a single big event.
8. The cost versus results does not add up for me. If 100,000 attended and their average cost for travel, food & lodging was $250 each (which I think is very conservative) we would be looking at a total expenditure of $25,000,000.00. I think we could get much better results with 25 Million by focusing on getting Ron Paul “clones” elected to congress or by educating others.
9. For quite a few people traveling to DC is just out of the question. Taking time off from work, family issues, the costs are also major hurdles that many will not be able to overcome.

It would be great to meet other constitutionally minded folks… to know that we are not alone and see the power of what could become an actual movement. I am gravely concerned about the risk versus return and am not convinced a “March on Washington” is in our best interests.

I am REALLY not trying to be a naysayer. I would appreciate it if someone could provide convincing arguments as to why the march would be a good thing.

Thanks for this thoughtful post. It is unfortunate that there are people on this forum who will give one star to sincere, constructive critical thinking without even reading it or bothering to explain why they disagree.

After reading through all of your concerns, I must say that I think every one is an important point to consider if we are judging whether or not this is a good idea. A few of them I believe we can manage, a few may be deal breakers.

As for the lack of clear purpose, possible lack cohesion amongst a large, diverse group, and possbility of usurpation (expressed in points 2, 5, 6), I believe the solution is to explicitly make it a march about the message as opposed to the man. The idea is that it would be, in essence, The March For Freedom, Liberty, And The Constitution, Led By Ron Paul as opposed to The March For Ron Paul. I make my case for why I believe this will solve these problems HERE.

Also, If this march were made to be about the message as I am suggesting-- if we used it as a means of showing the government and our fellow citizens that Ron Paul's message has resonated with thousands of Americans, that we are standing togther in support of it, and that we're not going away regardless of whether or not he wins or loses the election, I think that would be a good thing to do even if there were only a few states left (point 1 above).

However, I tend to agree quite a bit on your other points, especially point 8. I subscribe to G. Edward Griffin's strategy for victory, which is for liberty-minded people committed to The Creed Of Freedom taking back the "power centers" in the country one by one from the ground up, the same way they were captured by collectivists. All of that money could help kick start this strategy in a very, very big way.

Overall, it does seem like it is very "risky", as Ron Paul himself said. In the end I'm not sure if it's a risk worth taking.

 

[MoneyWhereMyMouthIs2]

But I am very concerned about this event being successful in all those regards... if it is not it could result in the end of a possible movement... and I say "possible" because I do not think we have reached the critical mass of becoming a movement... yet.

Don't worry about that. Anyone who's behind this today will be behind it next year. I don't really see anyone jumping ship because the attendance at a march didn't meet their expectations.

 

[smartguy911]

1. Primary's don't matter anymore
2. The purposes is to get definitive media attention. I question your supporter status for asking.
3. Ron Paul said we should march, there will be a march. 100k on the meetups but I think 500k+ will show.
4. Organizing? Call a date we will show. This is a ridiculous statement. This message is the most important message in the world. Get a grip. I question your integrity to spread the message.
5. We will all have to agree to disagree. But more importantly, we will agree on the purpose of showing up to the march. For god's sake its Ron Paul calling it on, so if you don't support his message don't show. I question your support again.
6. Doesn't matter what groups show up. I hope that all show. This is why RP didn't give white supremacy groups back thier money from donations. Its the message.
7. Only marches that you participate in are not historical.
8. Money is not an issue. A presidential candidate ordered a march. Thats history and will generate more coverage than any old rally. But you see... this isnt a rally. Its a MARCH. Not some little rally.
9. IF the message is strong enough people will show. You questioning it probably means you wont show... THANK GOD! Work, family issues, costs wont matter when were all in the FEMA camps.

There is no risk in this march. Im glad your so patriotic inwhich that you dont believe in this movement, this soon to be historical March in Washington is not in our best interests. Thanks.

You are a naysayer by even bringing them up. Im seriously questioning your Trust in Ron Paul.

that's just his personality. he just wants to make sure and want to bring it up..that's all... no need to question his trust in Dr. Paul or if he is patriotic. Some people prefer to analyze the situation before they jump into it.

 

[ThreeFireflies]

Answers

Here are my answers to the above objections:

1. Only four states would remain…..so what? We have to wake up and concentrate on election fraud. Knowledgeable people would have expected the results we were given. We need to clearly display that level of knowledge, if only because knowledgeable people have the power to inspire a wide variety of no-voters.

2. If we can summon the numbers, media indifference will backfire. We need to expose the ulterior motives of the media.

3. It shouldn’t be that impossible to estimate how many people would show up. First provide them with practical suggestions for technical difficulties, then ask them how likely – on a scale from one to five, for instance – they’ll be to attend.

4. Let’s diagnose the problem accurately. There are some highly intelligent people involved in this movement, but they’re afraid to reveal themselves to government snoops with cattle cars in mind.

5. First, we have a leader who paid very keen attention to what could and couldn’t be appropriated. Second, if everyone quit for that reason, where would we be? Divided and conquered. So what do we have to lose??

6. We’re dealing with some of the most violent people on the planet. Someone is going to pay agitators for disruptive and illegal acts. They’ll fall back on their “Racist!” accusations, having gotten away with that despite the mass murder of Iraqi civilians (men, women, and children). The point is, we can either anticipate sabotage now, or we can wait till there isn’t any Constitution, even in theory.

7. Our opponents have been responsible – ultimately responsible – for nearly all previous marches. (I saw the list.) With the participants being regarded as suckers behind the scenes, there was no possibility of useful change – quite the contrary. To change things, you have to comprehend the grand scheme. They finance both sides of a war. They also finance both sides of media manufactured disputes between Republicans and Democrats. Ron Paul hit on something they were unlikely to finance: a Republican anti-war stance. That’s why this march sounds like a chance worth taking to me.

8. 25 million won’t be worth much in a year or two. We’re running out of time. As for Ron Paul clones, do you actually believe we’ve got honest elections? The people aren’t doing the voting; the mob is, and a march or marches could be designed to demonstrate that.

9. Find out how many people could attend an all state march versus a DC march.

 

[Agent CSL]

Perfectly OK to have doubts

It's perfectly ok to have doubts. No one should flame you for being a doubter because, well, yeah... It is going to be a big risk and if we don't pull it off right it could scatter efforts. Here's my response:

1. I think someone else said this. The march has a purpose of keeping us together after the primaries. If Ron Paul doesn't take the states, I'm not going to flip out. This is bigger than Ron. We are going to Washington DC to make a statement to Congress and the United States. We're going to say "HEY! Ron started something, and now we're here to tell you we're coming to take your jobs and fix this country."

2. Same as above. We're going to try to gain media attention, but also stick together, show our numbers and send a statement to Congress and the powers that be that we're not backing down.

3. I'm not worried about numbers because whatever the media reports is going to belittle us anyway. I'm going to go, money willing, to show my support for the movement. The inner-circle of this movement will be there and it's a lot different looking out than looking in. We will have a grand time, meet new people, share interests. Even if we only gather 500 people we will still make an impact on ourselves.

4. Yes it is challenging to organize a big event. I think over the next 2-3 months we will see some leaders shake to the top. Again, money willing, I'll be there and I'll pitch in any way I can. Part of the challenge is to show the Government that we can govern ourselves. If things get out of hand then that will be detrimental to our cause, showing that we need supervision. We will have organizers and advertisers who will try to make information known, but I think it's our own duty to make sure we pitch in the best we can to inform eachother, to clean up after eachother and to keep eachother safe. We can do it! It's part of the message!

5. I think Ron Paul himself will define this cause, and we will stick to it.

6. The seriousness of this march is that many of the people have already taken steps to run for a government position, and some are already running. We are a diverse group, many of us are supporting multiple ideas. It might be an idea-cluster**** I don't deny that. I think what we are trying to say is "We're not just protesting, this is a message to you, that we're going to do something afterwards!"

7. I disagree. They would like to write off marches as ineffective, but it's great for rallying our cause. You're right though that if this march is a "last stand" then it will fail. But as I said above, many people are planning to do something afterwards.

8. I kind of agree with this but I think a physical upfront demonstration is great for morale and as a learning purpose. Any of us can sit in a room, donate $250 and say "I helped!" and then what can $250 buy? A tank of gas? I think just showing up at the march has a spiritual effect and gives whoever goes bragging rights to say "I was there."

9. I think some people on this forum do need to realize this and stop calling people who don't come "not true supporters." Yes, a lot aren't going to be able to come. For those who have monetary issues we will just work and try our damnest to make the money, there's still time. If we can't make it then we will try to support any other way we can.

 

[crazyfingers]

I agree with many of the sentinments expressed by the OP. However, if done right, this can be a great opportunity to move the freedom agenda forward. The march should not be the main event, but rather just be a backdrop to a large array of concerted efforts designed to restore the Republic! I just really hope the campaign is smart enough not to pick Memorial Day or the 4th of July.

Edit: Imagine if 5K marches all joined the Republican Liberty Caucos on that one day? Talk about shaking up the establishment. We need to plan something like this IMO.

 

[flames2dust77]

I don't have time to give responses to each question you posed. I would just like to say that I think we are over analyzing things. Dr. Paul did warn this would be a risk...but sometimes you just have to stop over thinking everything, throw caution to the wind and just do it. I believe in this in this message with every fiber of my being. I am sure you do too. That's what matters. The march might be ineffective to some....but I think it's more symbolism than anything else. It's to show we have a solid base of supporters who are united. Let's just go with it and see what happens. You might be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.