Sen. Rand Paul yields to “lawyers” on Cruz citizenship question


Probably a smart decision. The argument is challenging because it's not "politically correct" and probably would conjure up accusations of a "birther" revival. I agree with Paul that it's best to leave it to the courts (or the liberal media)... as frustrating as that outcome will be.


It seems to me the jurisprudence for "natural-born citizen" is well established in the law. Vattel's work in The Law of Nations being the most prominent, which was used by the early Supreme Court justices in The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 (1814) (p.289).

I have yet to find any Supreme Court case that would suggest an overturning of this definition by Vattel and initial case, while I've come across several who support the same definition. I always find it unusual when something so simple and clearly established might cause controversy.. but I shouldn't be surprised in today's environment.

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Cruz's father fled Cuba before the Batista Regime was overthrown by Castro. It is interesting to note here... that Cruz's father supported Castro's overthrow of Batista and was imprisoned for his dissent. He fled to Austin, Texas and obtained political asylum. Apparently, he eventually moved to Canada while under asylum and obtained Canadian citizenship. This eliminated his asylum status in America I assume. I have to imagine that when his father obtained citizenship, so did his mother. It would seem odd if they both moved together and didn't both follow the same effort of citizenship. When Ted Cruz was born, I can't see any indication that there is any doubt he was born in Canada, by parents of Canadian citizenship, and thus a Canadian citizen by birth. His father didn't even obtain naturalized citizenship in the United States until 2005. Ted Cruz himself, renounced his Canadian citizenship in May of 2014!

So, as to this question.. I think I'd like to see evidence that Ted Cruz even naturalized. Second, I'd like to see an elaboration on the Natural-Born Citizen debate where one parent might be a dual citizen and a child is born in the other country, in this case Ted's mother and Ted being born in Canada. From what I can understand about current citizenship laws... there is nothing to imply Ted Cruz obtained U.S. citizenship by any means from his mother, if she were in fact a dual citizen.

With that said, there is clearly a pending debate to occur on this and I don't think it will be favorable for Cruz.
 
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P that Cruz's father supported Castro's overthrow of Batista and was imprisoned for his dissent. He fled to Austin, Texas and obtained political asylum. Apparently, he eventually moved to Canada while under asylum and obtained Canadian citizenship. This eliminated his asylum status in America I assume. I have to imagine that when his father obtained citizenship, so did his mother. It would seem odd if they both moved together and didn't both follow the same effort of citizenship. When Ted Cruz was born, I can't see any indication that there is any doubt he was born in Canada, by parents of Canadian citizenship, and thus a Canadian citizen by birth. His father didn't even obtain naturalized citizenship in the United States until 2005. Ted Cruz himself, renounced his Canadian citizenship in May of 2014!

1) Ted Cruz's father never became a Canadian citizen.
2) He had permanent residence status in the US, which is not revoked even if he acquired another citizenship.
3) His mother never because a Canadian citizen.
4) Ted Cruz was born a US citizen by virtue of his mother.
 
The Texas Republican has answered this question before and claims that he falls within the Constitutional requirement of being a "natural born U.S. citizen" despite being born on foreign soil.

Summer of 1787 has already settled it Cruz - you lose, and probably can't be eligible for the VP's one main function either.

Exclusion of non-native born executive was the exact intent of John Jay - who became the First Chief Justice - in a July letter to George Washington . . .
The delegates even were voting on the same requirement for the Senators and the discussion came to a Pennsylvania delegate born in Scotland -
they thought he'd be ok in legislative branch btw - and that clause failed in delegate vote, of course.

If Cruz wants to hoodwink us on the Constitution - good luck.
 
1) Ted Cruz's father never became a Canadian citizen.
2) He had permanent residence status in the US, which is not revoked even if he acquired another citizenship.
3) His mother never because a Canadian citizen. She was from Delaware, moved to Canada, and maintained her American citizenship.
4) Ted Cruz was born a US citizen by virtue of his mother.

Added info.
 
It seems to me the jurisprudence for "natural-born citizen" is well established in the law. Vattel's work in The Law of Nations being the most prominent, which was used by the early Supreme Court justices in The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 (1814) (p.289).

The Venus case has nothing to do with the definition of natural-born citizen, only domicile in a foreign country. Marshall quotes a passage from Vattel that also mentions, "natives or indigenes," in Marshall's translation, but the purpose of the citation is not to define natural-born citizen. Indeed, Marshall concludes after the citation, "A domicile, then, in the sense in which this term is used by Vattel, requires not only actual residence in a foreign country, but 'an intention of always staying there.' Actual residence without this intention amounts to no more than 'simple habitation.'"

Cruz's case seems open and shut to me. He was born of an American mother on foreign soil. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American parents. George Romney was born in Mexico to American parents.

The definition of birthright citizenship is a whole other can of worms that I'm not going to address here.
 
Lucky for Arthur Chester they couldn't determine what side of the Canadian/Vermont border the family resided on.
But it was an issue - so yeah, this is settled for not having a foreign soil born VP ever again who could claim the throne expressedly forbidden of the non-US born citizen.
 
1) Ted Cruz's father never became a Canadian citizen.
2) He had permanent residence status in the US, which is not revoked even if he acquired another citizenship.
3) His mother never because a Canadian citizen.
4) Ted Cruz was born a US citizen by virtue of his mother.

1) Ted Cruz's father admitted it himself that he became a Canadian citizen.
2) I don't see how its relevant, since it's not a form of citizenship. Nonetheless, I am under the impression that acquiring foreign citizenship voids "green card" status in the United States.
3) I think this is still a matter of speculation. There seems to be two sides of that story. In either case, I don't think it passes other legal tests for Ted Cruz.
4) Does Cruz pass the 14th Amendment test of jurisdiction?


Elk v. Wilkins 112 U.S. 94 (1884)

......

This section contemplates two sources of citizenship, and two sources only: birth and naturalization. The persons declared to be citizens are "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof." The evident meaning of these last words is not merely subject in some respect or degree to the jurisdiction of the United States, but completely subject to their political jurisdiction and owing them direct and immediate allegiance. And the words relate to the time of birth in the one case, as they do to the time of naturalization in the other. Persons not thus subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at the time of birth cannot become so afterwards except by being naturalized, either individually, as by proceedings under the naturalization acts, or collectively, as by the force of a treaty by which foreign territory is acquired.
Indians born within the territorial limits of the United States, members of and owing immediate allegiance to one of the Indiana tribes (an alien though dependent power), although in a geographical sense born in the United States, are no more "born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," within the meaning of the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, than the children of subjects of any foreign government born within the domain of that government, or the children born within the United States of ambassadors or other public ministers of foreign nations.

I think this is quite relevant to Cruz. I think it is quite clear he was, at the time of his birth, not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States but rather the jurisdiction of Canada.

I suppose another way to review this question is to ask, If Ted Cruz's father was the King of England and all the other circumstances were generally the same.. would we accept Cruz as a Presidential candidate, while also being an heir to the throne of England? Had this been possible from a legal standpoint, I'm unsure why the British Empire wouldn't have attempted to do so with how big the stakes were to hold the United States under their power.
 
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1) Ted Cruz's father never became a Canadian citizen.
2) He had permanent residence status in the US, which is not revoked even if he acquired another citizenship.
3) His mother never because a Canadian citizen.
4) Ted Cruz was born a US citizen by virtue of his mother.

1) Rafael Cruz Sr. has admitted in an interview that he became a Canadian citizen during the 8 years he and his family lived and worked there.
2) All the time that Rafael Cruz Sr. lived in Canada, Canada restricted dual citizenship. This wasn't changed until 1978 (correction 1977), by this time the Cruz's had already left Canada.
3) To be correct, there's no proof that his mother ever became a Canadian citizen. However, there is also no proof that his mother met residency requirements and was able to confer US citizenship to Ted. Ted Cruz or his family have not released any official US documents proving that his mother was able to confer US citizenship.
4) Ted Cruz was born a natural born Canadian citizen. Because his mother may have been a US citizen, Ted was given an opportunity, through acts of naturalization, to easily acquire US citizenship. However, like I said, there is no proof that his mother met statutes and was allowed to confer US citizenship to him. If Ted Cruz is a US citizen, he's only a citizen because of statutes written by Congress. Congress can at any time re-write statutes so that such children are not eligible to retain US citizenship. Since he's afforded citizenship through acts of naturalization, he can only claim to be a naturalized US citizen, not a natural born US citizen.
 
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Probably a smart decision. The argument is challenging because it's not "politically correct" and probably would conjure up accusations of a "birther" revival. I agree with Paul that it's best to leave it to the courts (or the liberal media)... as frustrating as that outcome will be.


It seems to me the jurisprudence for "natural-born citizen" is well established in the law. Vattel's work in The Law of Nations being the most prominent, which was used by the early Supreme Court justices in The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253 (1814) (p.289).

I have yet to find any Supreme Court case that would suggest an overturning of this definition by Vattel and initial case, while I've come across several who support the same definition. I always find it unusual when something so simple and clearly established might cause controversy.. but I shouldn't be surprised in today's environment.

----

Cruz's father fled Cuba before the Batista Regime was overthrown by Castro. It is interesting to note here... that Cruz's father supported Castro's overthrow of Batista and was imprisoned for his dissent. He fled to Austin, Texas and obtained political asylum. Apparently, he eventually moved to Canada while under asylum and obtained Canadian citizenship. This eliminated his asylum status in America I assume. I have to imagine that when his father obtained citizenship, so did his mother. It would seem odd if they both moved together and didn't both follow the same effort of citizenship. When Ted Cruz was born, I can't see any indication that there is any doubt he was born in Canada, by parents of Canadian citizenship, and thus a Canadian citizen by birth. His father didn't even obtain naturalized citizenship in the United States until 2005. Ted Cruz himself, renounced his Canadian citizenship in May of 2014!

So, as to this question.. I think I'd like to see evidence that Ted Cruz even naturalized. Second, I'd like to see an elaboration on the Natural-Born Citizen debate where one parent might be a dual citizen and a child is born in the other country, in this case Ted's mother and Ted being born in Canada. From what I can understand about current citizenship laws... there is nothing to imply Ted Cruz obtained U.S. citizenship by any means from his mother, if she were in fact a dual citizen.

With that said, there is clearly a pending debate to occur on this and I don't think it will be favorable for Cruz.

Another curious thing about Rafael Cruz Sr.'s history. He claimed to have come to the US with no money and not speaking a word of English, after bribing Cuban officials to sign off on his paperwork. I'm not sure of the law at the time, but aren't students travelling to the US on visas required to show financial support, and a mastery of the English language? The Cruz's have also said that Rafael Sr. paid his way through college by working as a dishwasher for .50 cent an hour. I'm not sure if visa students are allowed to take up jobs in the US, but he seems almost certainly in violation of minimum wage laws. The minimum wage at the time of Rafael Sr.'s arrival to the US was $1.00 an hour; so he was a visiting foreigner working for half the amount of the minimum wage requirement.
 
I grew up in a time when schools taught us all that If you were born on foreign soil, you could never be president of the United States. My parents were taught the same thing and their parents were told the same thing.

True or not - until persons in our own government LOUDLY admit that this is in fact, the policy pushed and promoted as the truth for way over a hundred+ years, I will never accept or vote for any foreign-born person. If this policy is a lie, I want to hear them admit to the lie, state why/how it is incorrect, and explain why the lie was perpetuated generation after generation. Also explain why they chose to peg me as "crazy" when their lie no longer suited somebody's agenda, rather than admit to lying! Nothing less will ever change my mind.

That said, Rand is better off leaving it up in the air for the time being, due to PC perceptions.
 
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The Venus case has nothing to do with the definition of natural-born citizen, only domicile in a foreign country. Marshall quotes a passage from Vattel that also mentions, "natives or indigenes," in Marshall's translation, but the purpose of the citation is not to define natural-born citizen. Indeed, Marshall concludes after the citation, "A domicile, then, in the sense in which this term is used by Vattel, requires not only actual residence in a foreign country, but 'an intention of always staying there.' Actual residence without this intention amounts to no more than 'simple habitation.'"

Cruz's case seems open and shut to me. He was born of an American mother on foreign soil. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American parents. George Romney was born in Mexico to American parents.

The definition of birthright citizenship is a whole other can of worms that I'm not going to address here.

While your point on The Venus holds true that there was no intent to explicitly define natural-born citizen.. this very same language cited by Marshall was also continued through numerous other cases. Perhaps the issue is more one of time... in the period of time most of these discussions about natural-born citizenship were had... I think the definition and intent was quite clear to the populace and framers. I think modern law has further confused the subject, where the threat of foreign influence has been less of a concern as it were in the past.

Take for instance the original drafts for the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which originally stated "subjects of any foreign government" instead of "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". The latter becoming the language of the 14th Amendment.
 
Can you be a natural born citizen of two sovereign nations? I think perhaps that is the real question here. If we can resolve to say NO, then it's quite clear the circumstances point clearly that Ted Cruz was a natural born Canadian citizen.

If Cruz is a Natural Born Citizen because of his mother... if Ted had stayed in Canada until working age... would he have been subject to the legislation enacted through Congress to pay taxes or at least report international earnings?
 
Can you be a natural born citizen of two sovereign nations? I think perhaps that is the real question here. If we can resolve to say NO, then it's quite clear the circumstances point clearly that Ted Cruz was a natural born Canadian citizen.

Of course you can. If you have, for example, a Spanish father and a German mother you are a natural born citizen of Spain and Germany regardless of where you were born.

If Cruz is a Natural Born Citizen because of his mother... if Ted had stayed in Canada until working age... would he have been subject to the legislation enacted through Congress to pay taxes or at least report international earnings?
Yes, as a US citizen he would have to pay US taxes.
 
Cruz's case seems open and shut to me. He was born of an American mother on foreign soil. John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone to American parents. George Romney was born in Mexico to American parents.

Are you saying that all 3 were eligible?
Then why did McCain have to have a simple resolution introduced in the Senate to declare that he was eligible?
As for George Romney; he was also more than likely not eligible either. Did Romney become President; did McCain? No.

In 1967, Pinckney G. McElwee wrote many of the same points about George Romney's ineligibility as people do today about Cruz's.

http://www.constitution.org/abus/presidential_eligibility_george_romney_mcelwee_1967.html
Presidential eligibility of George Romney
by Pinckney G. McElwee of D.C. Bar
June 1967, The Congressional Record 6-14-1967

The Act of March 26, 1790 (1 Stat 103) provides in pp 104: “And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the seas, or out of the limits of the United States shall be considered as natural-born citizens.”

In Osborn v. Bank, 22 US (9 Wheat) 738, l.c. 827, Chief Justice Marshall said:

A naturalized citizen is indeed made a citizen under an Act of Congress, but the Act does not proceed to give, to regulate, or to prescribe his capacities. He becomes a member of the society, possessing all the rights of a native citizen, and standing, in the view of the Constitution, on the footing of a native. The Constitution does not authorize Congress to enlarge or abridge those rights. The simple power of the national legislature, is to prescribe a uniform rule of naturalization, and the exercise of this power exhausts it, so far as regards the individual. The Constitution then takes him up, and, among other rights, extends to him the capacity of suing in the Courts of the United States, precisely under the same circumstance under which a native might sue. He is distinguishable in nothing from a native citizen, except so far as the Constitution makes the distinction. The law makes none.

Thus the Act of March 26, 1790 would be unconstitutional if it attempted to enlarge the rights of a naturalized citizen to be equal to those of natural-born citizens under the Constitution.

Although it is not within the power of Congress to change or amend the Constitution by means of definitions of languages used in the Constitution so as to mean something different than intended by the framers (amendments being governed by Article V) an argument might be advanced to the effect that the use of identical language by Congress substantially contemporaneously might be considered in later years by a court to reflect the same meaning of the same words by the framers of the Constitution; and under this argument to attach importance to the Act of Congress of March 26, 1790 (1 Stat 103).

This argument fades away when it is found that this act used the term “natural born” through inadvertence which resulted from the use of the English Naturalization Act (13 Geo. III, Cap 21 (1773) as a pattern when it was deemed necessary (as stated by Van Dyne) to enact a similar law in the United States to extend citizenship to foreign-born children of American parents. In the discussion on the floor of the House of Representatives in respect to the proposed naturalization bill of a committee composed of Thomas Hartley of Pennsylvania, Thomas Tudor Tucker of South Carolina and Andrew Moore of Virginia, Mr. Edamus Burke of South Carolina stated, “The case of the children of American parents born abroad ought to be provided for, as was done in the case of English parents in the 12th year of William III.” (See pp 1121, Vol 1 (Feb. 4, 1790) of Annals of Congress.) The proposed bill was then recommitted to the Committee of Hartley, Tucker and Moore, and a new bill containing the provision in respect to foreign-born children of American parentage was included, using the Anglican phrase “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” Manifestly, Mr. Burke had given the wrong reference to the Act of Parliament of the 12th year of William III which was an inheritance law. But, it was a naturalization bill and the reference to the English acts shows the origin of the inadvertent error in using the term natural-born citizen instead of plain “citizen” came from copying the English Naturalization Act.

Mr. James Madison, who had been a member of the Constitutional Convention and had participated in the drafting of the terms of eligibility for the President, was a member of the Committee of the House, together with Samuel Dexter of Massachusetts and Thomas A. Carnes of Georgia when the matter of the uniform naturalization act was considered in 1795. Here the false inference which such language might suggest with regard to the President was noted, and the Committee sponsored a new naturalization bill which deleted the term “natural-born” from the Act of 1795. (1 Stat 414) The same error was never repeated in any subsequent naturalization act.

The Act of 1795 provides:

The children of citizens born outside of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.

In 1802, when Congress repealed entirely the law of 1790, it enacted that “the children of persons who now are, or have been citizens of the United States, shall, although born outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, be considered as citizens of the United States” (2 stat 153). (R.S. 1993) This was followed by the Act of 1855 (10 Stat 604) which repealed the Act of 1802.

In United States v. Perkins, 17 F S 117, the syllabus reads:

Child born in England of mother who had been born in United States, and had married Englishman in England, held not a ‘natural born citizen,’ within the provisions of Federal Constitution, whether child became citizen at birth by reason of mother’s citizenship or by her subsequent repatriation (Cable Act. 8 U.S.C.A. Sections 9, 10, 367-370; 8 U.S.C.A. sections 6 and note, 7, 8, 399 c (a); Rev. St section 1993; Convention with Great Britain May 13, 1870, art. 1, 16 Stat. 775).

And the text of the opinion on page 179 reads:

But I think it is immaterial, for the purpose of the instant suit, whether petitioner became an American citizen at his birth by reason of his mother’s citizenship or later by means of the repatriation of his mother. I do not think the authorities sustain his claim that he is a natural-born citizen within the meaning of the provisions of the Constitution, either of section 1, clause 4, or article 2, that ‘No person except a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President,’ or of the Fourteenth Amendment, that ‘All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

* * *

I find no proper legal or historical basis on which to conclude that a person born outside of the United States could ever be eligible to occupy the Office of the President of the United States. In other words, in my opinion, Mr. George Romney of Michigan is ineligible to become President of the United States because he was born in Mexico and is, therefore, not a natural-born citizen as required by the United States Constitution.

...Pinckney G. McElwee
 
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In 1971, Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black, who just 4 years earlier had written the majority opinion in the case of Afroyim v. Rusk, had the following observation to make of foreign-born children of US citizens; “Although those Americans who acquire their citizenship under statutes conferring citizenship on the foreign-born children of citizens are not popularly thought of as naturalized citizens, the use of the word "naturalize" in this way has a considerable constitutional history. Congress is empowered by the Constitution to "establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization," Art. I, 8. Anyone acquiring citizenship solely under the exercise of this power is, constitutionally speaking, a naturalized citizen.”
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/401/815/case.html
 
Of course you can. If you have, for example, a Spanish father and a German mother you are a natural born citizen of Spain and Germany regardless of where you were born.


Yes, as a US citizen he would have to pay US taxes.

So are you saying there are millions of adults around the world who are obligated to either pay U.S. taxes and/or report international earnings who have never stepped foot in America? Do they get penalized if they don't enroll into ACA?

If so and I were a Liberal, I'd give tax credits to female U.S. citizens to procreate abroad to levy more taxes. =P
 
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Can you be a natural born citizen of two sovereign nations? I think perhaps that is the real question here. If we can resolve to say NO, then it's quite clear the circumstances point clearly that Ted Cruz was a natural born Canadian citizen.

Maybe for some other countries, but I don't believe so for natural born US citizens. At the time of Ted's birth in Canada, anyone born in Canada was afforded Canadian citizenship and considered a natural born Canadian citizen, even if they were born to alien parents; and Canada did not recognize dual citizenship. These Canadian laws weren't changed until 1977. So if Ted Cruz hadn't renounced his Canadian citizenship until 2014, isn't that proof that his mother never did or ever intended to confer US citizenship to Ted or ever registered his birth the US State Dept.? As far as I know, If Ted never claimed his US citizenship by the age of 18, then he would be forced to go through the more strenuous processes of the naturalization procedure, such as take an oath of allegiance. Why has Ted not released any paperwork that could document any of this? Why as he left the debate at his Canadian birth certificate, which proves nothing in regards to his US citizenship?
 
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Maybe for some other countries, but I don't believe so for natural born US citizens. At the time of Ted's birth in Canada, anyone born in Canada was afforded Canadian citizenship and considered a natural born Canadian citizen, even if they were born to alien parents; and Canada did not recognize dual citizenship. These Canadian laws weren't changed until 1978. So if Ted Cruz hadn't renounced his Canadian citizenship until 2014, isn't that proof that his mother never did or ever intended to confer US citizenship to Ted or ever registered his birth the US State Dept.? As far as I know, If Ted never claimed his US citizenship by the age of 18, then he would be forced to go through the more strenuous processes of the naturalization procedure, such as take an oath of allegiance. Why has Ted not released any paperwork that could document any of this? Why as he left the debate at his Canadian birth certificate, which proves nothing in regards to his US citizenship?

It's an interesting argument. I think Vattel's original definition and the various same interpretations over several SCOTUS cases is enough to establish precedent. I'm sure there are other forms of history that could establish this as well... the constitutional conventions, the exemption of the first several presidents to the rule out of necessity, and various other common law history in Europe.

I'm curious what prevents the perpetuity of citizenship along the following lines:

A female U.S. citizen marries a foreign citizen and gives birth in a foreign nation. If that child is assumed to be natural-born citizen, then all his children are natural-born and all their children are natural-born. In fact, they could go 10 generations like this and one day come to America and qualify for President? How does this prevent foreign influence or provide an avenue for foreign invasion?

I don't think it's difficult to see why the present argument is wrong and entirely out of the spirit of the framers. If this was the intent, there would have been no necessity to distinguish natural-born from other forms of citizenship.
 
I would think the intent of such a law would be to ensure that an elected personage would have their whole heart invested in the culture,tradition and soil of America?
 
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