SCOTUS strikes down anti carry NY gun law

An explicit "guarantee" of gun rights was not even considered necessary at that level until the former was usurped by the latter.

And at what point do you think that usurpation happened? The civil war?

What on earth does the Civil War have to do with it? :confused:

I specified the point at which that usurpation happened:

A voluntary pact already existed between the states. The Constitution was originally intended to consolidate more power in the hands of fewer people.

An explicit "guarantee" of gun rights was not even considered necessary at that level until the former was usurped by the latter.

"A voluntary pact [i.e., the Articles of Confederation] already existed between the states." This is "the former" thing to which I referred.

"The Constitution was originally intended to consolidate more power in the hands of fewer people." This is "the latter" thing to which I referred.

LOL. What turned into a "constitutional convention" was initially just a meeting to amend the Articles of Confederation. But rather than being amended, they were scrapped. (Which is why I'm against a constitutional convention.)

That was my point. A confederal assurance of gun rights was not considered needful when the Articles were ratified - but a federal assurance of gun rights was considered needful when the Constitution was ratified. The Bill of Rights was a sop to the anti-federalists who feared the usurpation and centralization of power the Constitution represented. They should have heeded their misgivings for exactly the same reasons you (and I) are against a constitutional convention today.
 
That was my point. A confederal assurance of gun rights was not considered needful when the Articles were ratified - but a federal assurance of gun rights was considered needful when the Constitution was ratified. The Bill of Rights was a sop to the anti-federalists who feared the usurpation and centralization of power the Constitution represented. They should have heeded their misgivings for exactly the same reasons you (and I) are against a constitutional convention today.

The constitution was ratified as a result of the problems that led to Shays' rebellion. You mentioned "mutual protection" among the states. (I may have your wording off, but I've got the thought.) Shays' was an unpaid Revolutionary War veteran. His local state was still oppressing him and his fellow vets with taxes, he was getting no debt relief from the merchants, and he and other vets were basically watermelon seeds that were being squeezed to hard. In short, the articles of confederation were a provable failure. Yep. There's a lot I don't like about the current system as well. But the "mutual protection" goal that you (and I) agree is necessary for a country, be it federal or confederate, cannot happen either without an individual right to bear arms or a large central military. Over the years the right to keep and bear arms has diminished at the same time the size and scope of the federal military has increased. I don't think that's an accident.
 
Yes. Or close enough, anyway.

But that is not my reason for thinking that gun rights should not be a federal issue.



No - not so long as membership in such a community is voluntary, and that community does not seek to enforce control over any other property not their own (or not contractually encumbered by them).



A voluntary pact already existed between the states. The Constitution was originally intended to consolidate more power in the hands of fewer people.

An explicit "guarantee" of gun rights was not even considered necessary at that level until the former was usurped by the latter.

And for good reason, as it turned out. The anti-federalists were right. Even Alexander Hamilton warned that the Bill of Rights would come to be regarded as a list of permissions granted by the federal government to "the people", rather than as a list of restrictions to be imposed upon the federal government by the states. We all know how that went. The mere fact it was sensed that an assurance from the feds that they would not interfere with gun rights (in the form of the 2nd Amendment) was, all by itself, a huge "red flag" (ha-ha). Note that no one thought it necessary to so amend the Articles of Confederation when they were established.



I am saying that the 2nd Amendment can go kick rocks because the federal level is not the proper scope or venue in which to address such matters (any more than it is the proper scope or venue in which to decree whether people ought to eat their veggies).

That is for state-level constitutions (or even more localized instruments) - and prior to the Constitution, that is where it was dealt with. As far as I know, every state had constitutional sureties for gun rights in some form or another. And if any did not, then that should have been a problem for them to fix for themselves (or not), and not a problem for the feds to "solve" for them (while forcibly imposing that "solution" on them and every other state, as well).

Makes sense to me. +outta rep
 
This article is not about this ruling (it was published over two years ago), but it is relevant to a number of things that have been raised in this thread.

The Incorporation Doctrine Broke the Constitutional System
https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/20...ion-doctrine-broke-the-constitutional-system/
Mike Maharrey (30 May 2020)

I think centralizing power is always a net loss for liberty. So did the founding generation. This is why the framers of the Constitution emphatically rejected a proposal to give the federal government veto power over state laws. It’s also why the first Congress rejected applying some provisions of the Bill of Rights to the states.

When I say this, it tends to confuse people, because, in today’s political system, the federal government vetoes state laws all the time through federal courts. And virtually every time somebody perceives that a state government has violated their rights, they run straight to federal courts to stop the offending state action.

Despite my protests, the application of the federal Bill of Rights to the states has become a key feature of the American political system.

As I said, I believe this will ultimately prove to be a net loss for liberty. When you turn to federal courts to protect your liberty from state actions, you’re playing a game of Russian roulette with five bullets loaded into your six-shooter. Despite a few minor victories here and there, federal courts almost always come out with opinions that expand government power, not protect individual liberty. And these expansions of government power become the law of the land across the entire United States. In a decentralized system, bad state court decisions only impact the people in that one state.

The risk isn’t worth the reward.

And yet here we are.

Among friends of liberty you will find a great deal of support for using federal courts to stop states from violating individual rights. Despite my misgivings, I can understand the impulse. When we see state governments trampling rights, we want somebody to step in. The feds are more than happy to step in. Why not take advantage of their service? But if you’re going to support the enforcement of the federal Bill of Rights on state and local governments, you need to understand where this purported power comes from and its implications for the American constitutional system.

The BIll of Rights Was Never Intended to Apply to State or Local Governments

The application of the Bill of Rights to state and local governments was not a feature of the original constitution. It came about through a series of federal court cases based on the Fourteenth Amendment.

A lot of people believe that the Bill of Rights always applied to state governments. This is simply not true. The Bill of Rights was never intended to bind the actions of state governments.

The preamble to the Bill of Rights makes its purpose absolutely clear: to further restrict federal government power.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution. (emphasis added)

The words “its powers” clearly refer back to the Constitution. The Bill of Rights was intended to “prevent misconstruction or abuse” of the Constitution’s powers as exercised through “the government”—the federal government. Notice that the word “government” is not plural.

The preamble of the Bill of Rights makes no mention of limiting the power of state governments. The state ratifying conventions had no intention of restricting their state’s own powers. They already had state constitutions to do that job.

This is an undebatable fact—no founding-era evidence exists that Congress or the state ratifiers intended for the protections included in the Bill of Rights to bind state governments. None.

Doing so would have essentially created a federal veto over state laws. As I’ve already said, this idea was rejected during the framing of the Constitution. It would have allowed for a massive expansion of central government authority—the exact opposite of the stated purpose of including a bill of rights.

The Incorporation Doctrine

The federal courts enforce the Bill of Rights on the states today through a legal framework known as the incorporation doctrine.

In a nutshell, the Supreme Court invented the incorporation doctrine through the Fourteenth Amendment. It relies on a dubious legal principle called “substantive due process,” invented out of thin air by the court more than fifty years after the ratification of the amendment.

There is some basis to argue that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to incorporate the Bill of Rights onto the states. The operative clause of the amendment reads, “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” The question is: Are the provisions of the Bill of Rights included in the Fourteenth Amendment’s “privileges and immunities”?

In my educated opinion, the answer is no. The Fourteenth Amendment was intended to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866. This was asserted over and over again both in the congressional debates and as supporters presented the amendment to the states. The civil rights act specifically enumerates the privileges and immunities that were to be protected. (The privileges and immunities listed in the Supreme Court case Corfield v. Coryell were also mentioned in debates.) They include the right to enter into contracts, own property, inherit property, travel freely, and access the courts. The act made no mention of the Bill of Rights.

In fact, in the 1873 Slaughterhouse Cases, the US Supreme Court rejected the idea that the privileges and immunities clause in the Fourteenth Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states.

Was it the purpose of the fourteenth amendment, by the simple declaration that no State should make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, to transfer the security and protection of all the civil rights which we have mentioned, from the States to the Federal government? And where it is declared that Congress Shall have the power to enforce that article, was it intended to bring within the power of Congress the entire domain of civil rights heretofore belonging exclusively to the States?

We are convinced that no such results were intended by the Congress which proposed these amendments, nor by the legislatures of the States which ratified them.

This is why the court later made up the concept of “substantive due process” to justify incorporation. The previous court had closed the door on basing incorporation on the more logical Privileges or Immunities Clause.

I admit that there exists some evidence that undermines my view on incorporation through the Privileges or Immunities Clause. But the concept of substantive due process is every bit a product of “living breathing” constitutional interpretation as any progressive court opinion conjured up during the New Deal.

Regardless, incorporation is now the law of the land and is ensconced in the legal system. You can try to use the federal courts to protect your rights from state governments if you choose. But you should at least understand how the idea evolved and what it has done to the constitutional system.

Incorporation Breaks the Original Constitutional System

The founding generation warned us over and over again about consolidating the states into a single national government. It was the greatest fear voiced by opponents of the Constitution during ratification and was a prime reason for the inclusion of the Bill of Rights.

During the Massachusetts ratifying convention, delegate Fisher Ames asserted that “a consolidation of the States would subvert the new Constitution.” And during the Virginia ratifying convention Patrick Henry warned, “Consolidation must end in the destruction of our liberties.” He elaborated:

When he asks my opinion of consolidation, of one power to reign over America with a strong hand, I will tell him I am persuaded of the rectitude of my honorable friend’s opinion, (Mr. Mason) that one government cannot reign over so extensive a country as this is, without absolute despotism. Compared to such a consolidation, small confederacies are little evils; though they ought to be recurred to but in case of necessity.

Supporters of the Constitution didn’t defend consolidation. They acknowledged its danger and swore it would never happen. In Federalist,no. 32, Alexander Hamilton wrote:

An entire consolidation of the States into one complete national sovereignty would imply an entire subordination of the parts; and whatever powers might remain in them, would be altogether dependent on the general will. But the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, exclusively delegated to the United States.

The incorporation doctrine did what Hamilton promised wouldn’t happen. It effectively obliterated state sovereignty and consolidated the state into a single national government.

Whether legitimate or not, the incorporation doctrine made real the founders’ worst fears. Using federal courts to police the states and enforce the Bill of Rights fractured the original constitutional structure, broke the Tenth Amendment, and effectively consolidated the states to be ruled by an oligarchy of federal judges.

You can’t simultaneously support incorporation and the original Constitution. They are hopelessly at odds.
 
D17B9952-0ACD-42FF-9B75-A3911DD56649.png
 
You do realize that the SCOTUS later referenced Nunn v Georgia in the Hiller Case right? :rolleyes: You SHOULD recognizes that because I freaking said it.

Your post addressing my post did not reference Hiller.

Again, reading is fundamental. So...go ahead and make your argument why the Georgia Supreme Court was wrong to interpret the 2nd Amendment, which says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, applied to the state even without the 14th amendment and the incorporation doctrine. I'll wait.

Like, wow, bro. You totally pwned me with your gifs. Your elite debating skills cannot be matched.

Anyway, sorry, but one single State Supreme Court decision is irrelevant to literally anything I said.
 
Your post addressing my post did not reference Hiller.



Like, wow, bro. You totally pwned me with your gifs. Your elite debating skills cannot be matched.

Anyway, sorry, but one single State Supreme Court decision is irrelevant to literally anything I said.

Okay. So what do you think is the relevance of the fact that Nunn v Georgia was a state supreme court decision that recognized that the 2nd amendment applied to the states?
 
Interesting read. But it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The founders were careful to put the word "congress" in the first amendment and leave it out of the 2nd.

This article is not about this ruling (it was published over two years ago), but it is relevant to a number of things that have been raised in this thread.

The Incorporation Doctrine Broke the Constitutional System
https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/20...ion-doctrine-broke-the-constitutional-system/
Mike Maharrey (30 May 2020)

I think centralizing power is always a net loss for liberty. So did the founding generation. This is why the framers of the Constitution emphatically rejected a proposal to give the federal government veto power over state laws. It’s also why the first Congress rejected applying some provisions of the Bill of Rights to the states.

When I say this, it tends to confuse people, because, in today’s political system, the federal government vetoes state laws all the time through federal courts. And virtually every time somebody perceives that a state government has violated their rights, they run straight to federal courts to stop the offending state action.

Despite my protests, the application of the federal Bill of Rights to the states has become a key feature of the American political system.

As I said, I believe this will ultimately prove to be a net loss for liberty. When you turn to federal courts to protect your liberty from state actions, you’re playing a game of Russian roulette with five bullets loaded into your six-shooter. Despite a few minor victories here and there, federal courts almost always come out with opinions that expand government power, not protect individual liberty. And these expansions of government power become the law of the land across the entire United States. In a decentralized system, bad state court decisions only impact the people in that one state.

The risk isn’t worth the reward.

And yet here we are.

Among friends of liberty you will find a great deal of support for using federal courts to stop states from violating individual rights. Despite my misgivings, I can understand the impulse. When we see state governments trampling rights, we want somebody to step in. The feds are more than happy to step in. Why not take advantage of their service? But if you’re going to support the enforcement of the federal Bill of Rights on state and local governments, you need to understand where this purported power comes from and its implications for the American constitutional system.

The BIll of Rights Was Never Intended to Apply to State or Local Governments

The application of the Bill of Rights to state and local governments was not a feature of the original constitution. It came about through a series of federal court cases based on the Fourteenth Amendment.

A lot of people believe that the Bill of Rights always applied to state governments. This is simply not true. The Bill of Rights was never intended to bind the actions of state governments.

The preamble to the Bill of Rights makes its purpose absolutely clear: to further restrict federal government power.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution. (emphasis added)

The words “its powers” clearly refer back to the Constitution. The Bill of Rights was intended to “prevent misconstruction or abuse” of the Constitution’s powers as exercised through “the government”—the federal government. Notice that the word “government” is not plural.

The preamble of the Bill of Rights makes no mention of limiting the power of state governments. The state ratifying conventions had no intention of restricting their state’s own powers. They already had state constitutions to do that job.

This is an undebatable fact—no founding-era evidence exists that Congress or the state ratifiers intended for the protections included in the Bill of Rights to bind state governments. None.

Doing so would have essentially created a federal veto over state laws. As I’ve already said, this idea was rejected during the framing of the Constitution. It would have allowed for a massive expansion of central government authority—the exact opposite of the stated purpose of including a bill of rights.

The Incorporation Doctrine

The federal courts enforce the Bill of Rights on the states today through a legal framework known as the incorporation doctrine.

In a nutshell, the Supreme Court invented the incorporation doctrine through the Fourteenth Amendment. It relies on a dubious legal principle called “substantive due process,” invented out of thin air by the court more than fifty years after the ratification of the amendment.

There is some basis to argue that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to incorporate the Bill of Rights onto the states. The operative clause of the amendment reads, “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” The question is: Are the provisions of the Bill of Rights included in the Fourteenth Amendment’s “privileges and immunities”?

In my educated opinion, the answer is no. The Fourteenth Amendment was intended to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866. This was asserted over and over again both in the congressional debates and as supporters presented the amendment to the states. The civil rights act specifically enumerates the privileges and immunities that were to be protected. (The privileges and immunities listed in the Supreme Court case Corfield v. Coryell were also mentioned in debates.) They include the right to enter into contracts, own property, inherit property, travel freely, and access the courts. The act made no mention of the Bill of Rights.

In fact, in the 1873 Slaughterhouse Cases, the US Supreme Court rejected the idea that the privileges and immunities clause in the Fourteenth Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states.

Was it the purpose of the fourteenth amendment, by the simple declaration that no State should make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, to transfer the security and protection of all the civil rights which we have mentioned, from the States to the Federal government? And where it is declared that Congress Shall have the power to enforce that article, was it intended to bring within the power of Congress the entire domain of civil rights heretofore belonging exclusively to the States?

We are convinced that no such results were intended by the Congress which proposed these amendments, nor by the legislatures of the States which ratified them.

This is why the court later made up the concept of “substantive due process” to justify incorporation. The previous court had closed the door on basing incorporation on the more logical Privileges or Immunities Clause.

I admit that there exists some evidence that undermines my view on incorporation through the Privileges or Immunities Clause. But the concept of substantive due process is every bit a product of “living breathing” constitutional interpretation as any progressive court opinion conjured up during the New Deal.

Regardless, incorporation is now the law of the land and is ensconced in the legal system. You can try to use the federal courts to protect your rights from state governments if you choose. But you should at least understand how the idea evolved and what it has done to the constitutional system.

Incorporation Breaks the Original Constitutional System

The founding generation warned us over and over again about consolidating the states into a single national government. It was the greatest fear voiced by opponents of the Constitution during ratification and was a prime reason for the inclusion of the Bill of Rights.

During the Massachusetts ratifying convention, delegate Fisher Ames asserted that “a consolidation of the States would subvert the new Constitution.” And during the Virginia ratifying convention Patrick Henry warned, “Consolidation must end in the destruction of our liberties.” He elaborated:

When he asks my opinion of consolidation, of one power to reign over America with a strong hand, I will tell him I am persuaded of the rectitude of my honorable friend’s opinion, (Mr. Mason) that one government cannot reign over so extensive a country as this is, without absolute despotism. Compared to such a consolidation, small confederacies are little evils; though they ought to be recurred to but in case of necessity.

Supporters of the Constitution didn’t defend consolidation. They acknowledged its danger and swore it would never happen. In Federalist,no. 32, Alexander Hamilton wrote:

An entire consolidation of the States into one complete national sovereignty would imply an entire subordination of the parts; and whatever powers might remain in them, would be altogether dependent on the general will. But the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, exclusively delegated to the United States.

The incorporation doctrine did what Hamilton promised wouldn’t happen. It effectively obliterated state sovereignty and consolidated the state into a single national government.

Whether legitimate or not, the incorporation doctrine made real the founders’ worst fears. Using federal courts to police the states and enforce the Bill of Rights fractured the original constitutional structure, broke the Tenth Amendment, and effectively consolidated the states to be ruled by an oligarchy of federal judges.

You can’t simultaneously support incorporation and the original Constitution. They are hopelessly at odds.
 
Interesting read. But it has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment. The founders were careful to put the word "congress" in the first amendment and leave it out of the 2nd.

I disagree, but the fact that the feds themselves have repeatedly and egregiously infringed the right to keep and bear arms - entirely regardless of what words were left out of the 2nd Amendment - is all by itself a more than adequate testament to the folly of allowing them to dictate what gun rights people should or should not be permitted to exercise.
 
I disagree, but the fact that the feds themselves have repeatedly and egregiously infringed the right to keep and bear arms - entirely regardless of what words were left out of the 2nd Amendment - is all by itself a more than adequate testament to the folly of allowing them to dictate what gun rights people should or should not be permitted to exercise.

Well I'm glad the SCOTUS finally reversed course a little bit.
 
Well I'm glad the SCOTUS finally reversed course a little bit.

Don't get me wrong - I love the outcome of this ruling, and I am glad it happened, too.

But we should absolutely not be in a position where the feds get to make these calls in the first place.

Except against themselves - if SCOTUS overturned the (federal) National Firearms Act, you'd not hear a peep of objection out of me.

(Though I would still prefer that it happen because states said "fuck you, no!" to the feds instead of "please with sugar?" to SCOTUS.)
 
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That is not what you said. You said "the rights are not GOD given" if "the BoR doesn't apply to the states".

Thus, according to your previous statement, those rights cannot have been "GOD given" prior to the existence of the BoR and its application to the states.

Because that is how "if A then B" works - as in "if that is not what you actually meant, then that's your problem, not mine". (See?)
I laid out the logical result of taking a position that the BoR was not binding on the states.
If the logic is flawed (as you point out that it is) then the position cannot stand.



No it isn't. It is to deny that the feds have any business arrogating to themselves the authority to dictate to the states on behalf of "GOD" or anyone else (the former of whom I am certain is quite capable of ensuring HIS justice be done - without needing any assistance from the feds, thank you very much) concerning whatever it is the feds do or don't happen to consider to be "rights" this month.

The feds exist and declare through the BoR that the GOD given rights exist and are binding on the states as the BoR is part of the Constitution, it is the duty of the feds to enforce those rights.
It is the duty of ALL authorities to enforce those GOD given rights, a duty GOD places upon them.
To declare that the rights are not applicable to the states is to declare that they do not come from GOD and he does not place a duty on the states and feds to enforce them.

No I am not. I oppose tyranny at both the state and federal levels - but I do so without making excuses or apologies for the latter just because it happens to countervail against the former once every blue moon.

And if there are not enough people in New York who give enough of a $#@! to do something about their tyrants, then to hell with New York.

0IQTKnh.jpg


(One might even call that "GOD's justice" ...)
Yes you are because you are not saying to throw New York out of the union or to liberate the red counties and throw out NYC.
You are siding with the tyrants against the citizens in the red counties and insisting that they suffer no consequences from their blatant violation of the supreme law of the land and the GOD given rights it recognizes.



To hell with the Constitution. SCOTUS and the BoR are not coming to save you.

For each and every ruling like this one, myriad other violations of rights are routinely endorsed and perpetrated by the very same federal government, all under the rubric of the Constitution. "One step forward, a dozen steps back, one step forward, a dozen steps back, ..." is not a viable strategy for securing liberty - and if squirting Constitutional eyewash worked, then the federal government would not have become the hideously bloated behemoth that it is. (I mean, talk about "bizarre dogma" ...)
I will leave it to GOD to Judge those who do not use every tool available to fight for the rights he gives man.
But I wouldn't want to be in your shoes and have to tell him that you refused to use the feds when they were a potential tool to safeguard the rights of your fellowmen in even one instance.

And I didn't say anything at all about "states' rights" ("dogma[tically]" or otherwise), because states don't have rights - only individual people do.
Sure:
FTR, AFAIAC the incorporation doctrine (and every other form of federal supremacy) can go kick rocks.

If you're gonna have feds at all, then the states should be the bosses of the feds, not the other way around.
Split hairs all you want but don't deny what you said.
You said the states should have the right to ignore the BoR and the feds because they should be the bosses and not have to abide by the compact they joined or leave it.


And the states & feds that have no problem violating the BoR can say exactly the same thing about the others. Again, same difference - separation of either side from the other reduces to the same thing (namely, one side telling the feds and the other side to go kick rocks, or vice versa). I don't particularly care which side takes its marbles and goes home - it would suffice that it happens. (In fact, I'd laugh my ass of if Texas, et al. were to end up seceding because they thought the feds were too tyrannical, and New York, et al. were to end up seceding because they thought the feds weren't tyrannical enough.)
The point is to force the issue or force them to respect our rights.
You claim you want to see secession but refuse to use the tool that might cause it.
Your position is why we are where we are.
 
Perhaps according to the current makeup of SCOTUS. What happens when liberals hold the majority and reverse these rulings?

Then we secede if necessary.

Quit trying to deny the plain truth of the matter and start working to enforce it.
Your attitude is why the left always wins and our side has so far only "compromised" away our birthright.
If the nation splits we will be better off, if it doesn't then we will enforce our rights as best we can.
 
This article is not about this ruling (it was published over two years ago), but it is relevant to a number of things that have been raised in this thread.

The Incorporation Doctrine Broke the Constitutional System
https://tenthamendmentcenter.com/20...ion-doctrine-broke-the-constitutional-system/
Mike Maharrey (30 May 2020)

I think centralizing power is always a net loss for liberty. So did the founding generation. This is why the framers of the Constitution emphatically rejected a proposal to give the federal government veto power over state laws. It’s also why the first Congress rejected applying some provisions of the Bill of Rights to the states.

When I say this, it tends to confuse people, because, in today’s political system, the federal government vetoes state laws all the time through federal courts. And virtually every time somebody perceives that a state government has violated their rights, they run straight to federal courts to stop the offending state action.

Despite my protests, the application of the federal Bill of Rights to the states has become a key feature of the American political system.

As I said, I believe this will ultimately prove to be a net loss for liberty. When you turn to federal courts to protect your liberty from state actions, you’re playing a game of Russian roulette with five bullets loaded into your six-shooter. Despite a few minor victories here and there, federal courts almost always come out with opinions that expand government power, not protect individual liberty. And these expansions of government power become the law of the land across the entire United States. In a decentralized system, bad state court decisions only impact the people in that one state.

The risk isn’t worth the reward.

And yet here we are.

Among friends of liberty you will find a great deal of support for using federal courts to stop states from violating individual rights. Despite my misgivings, I can understand the impulse. When we see state governments trampling rights, we want somebody to step in. The feds are more than happy to step in. Why not take advantage of their service? But if you’re going to support the enforcement of the federal Bill of Rights on state and local governments, you need to understand where this purported power comes from and its implications for the American constitutional system.

The BIll of Rights Was Never Intended to Apply to State or Local Governments

The application of the Bill of Rights to state and local governments was not a feature of the original constitution. It came about through a series of federal court cases based on the Fourteenth Amendment.

A lot of people believe that the Bill of Rights always applied to state governments. This is simply not true. The Bill of Rights was never intended to bind the actions of state governments.

The preamble to the Bill of Rights makes its purpose absolutely clear: to further restrict federal government power.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution. (emphasis added)

The words “its powers” clearly refer back to the Constitution. The Bill of Rights was intended to “prevent misconstruction or abuse” of the Constitution’s powers as exercised through “the government”—the federal government. Notice that the word “government” is not plural.

The preamble of the Bill of Rights makes no mention of limiting the power of state governments. The state ratifying conventions had no intention of restricting their state’s own powers. They already had state constitutions to do that job.

This is an undebatable fact—no founding-era evidence exists that Congress or the state ratifiers intended for the protections included in the Bill of Rights to bind state governments. None.

Doing so would have essentially created a federal veto over state laws. As I’ve already said, this idea was rejected during the framing of the Constitution. It would have allowed for a massive expansion of central government authority—the exact opposite of the stated purpose of including a bill of rights.

The Incorporation Doctrine

The federal courts enforce the Bill of Rights on the states today through a legal framework known as the incorporation doctrine.

In a nutshell, the Supreme Court invented the incorporation doctrine through the Fourteenth Amendment. It relies on a dubious legal principle called “substantive due process,” invented out of thin air by the court more than fifty years after the ratification of the amendment.

There is some basis to argue that the Fourteenth Amendment was intended to incorporate the Bill of Rights onto the states. The operative clause of the amendment reads, “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” The question is: Are the provisions of the Bill of Rights included in the Fourteenth Amendment’s “privileges and immunities”?

In my educated opinion, the answer is no. The Fourteenth Amendment was intended to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866. This was asserted over and over again both in the congressional debates and as supporters presented the amendment to the states. The civil rights act specifically enumerates the privileges and immunities that were to be protected. (The privileges and immunities listed in the Supreme Court case Corfield v. Coryell were also mentioned in debates.) They include the right to enter into contracts, own property, inherit property, travel freely, and access the courts. The act made no mention of the Bill of Rights.

In fact, in the 1873 Slaughterhouse Cases, the US Supreme Court rejected the idea that the privileges and immunities clause in the Fourteenth Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states.

Was it the purpose of the fourteenth amendment, by the simple declaration that no State should make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, to transfer the security and protection of all the civil rights which we have mentioned, from the States to the Federal government? And where it is declared that Congress Shall have the power to enforce that article, was it intended to bring within the power of Congress the entire domain of civil rights heretofore belonging exclusively to the States?

We are convinced that no such results were intended by the Congress which proposed these amendments, nor by the legislatures of the States which ratified them.

This is why the court later made up the concept of “substantive due process” to justify incorporation. The previous court had closed the door on basing incorporation on the more logical Privileges or Immunities Clause.

I admit that there exists some evidence that undermines my view on incorporation through the Privileges or Immunities Clause. But the concept of substantive due process is every bit a product of “living breathing” constitutional interpretation as any progressive court opinion conjured up during the New Deal.

Regardless, incorporation is now the law of the land and is ensconced in the legal system. You can try to use the federal courts to protect your rights from state governments if you choose. But you should at least understand how the idea evolved and what it has done to the constitutional system.

Incorporation Breaks the Original Constitutional System

The founding generation warned us over and over again about consolidating the states into a single national government. It was the greatest fear voiced by opponents of the Constitution during ratification and was a prime reason for the inclusion of the Bill of Rights.

During the Massachusetts ratifying convention, delegate Fisher Ames asserted that “a consolidation of the States would subvert the new Constitution.” And during the Virginia ratifying convention Patrick Henry warned, “Consolidation must end in the destruction of our liberties.” He elaborated:

When he asks my opinion of consolidation, of one power to reign over America with a strong hand, I will tell him I am persuaded of the rectitude of my honorable friend’s opinion, (Mr. Mason) that one government cannot reign over so extensive a country as this is, without absolute despotism. Compared to such a consolidation, small confederacies are little evils; though they ought to be recurred to but in case of necessity.

Supporters of the Constitution didn’t defend consolidation. They acknowledged its danger and swore it would never happen. In Federalist,no. 32, Alexander Hamilton wrote:

An entire consolidation of the States into one complete national sovereignty would imply an entire subordination of the parts; and whatever powers might remain in them, would be altogether dependent on the general will. But the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, exclusively delegated to the United States.

The incorporation doctrine did what Hamilton promised wouldn’t happen. It effectively obliterated state sovereignty and consolidated the state into a single national government.

Whether legitimate or not, the incorporation doctrine made real the founders’ worst fears. Using federal courts to police the states and enforce the Bill of Rights fractured the original constitutional structure, broke the Tenth Amendment, and effectively consolidated the states to be ruled by an oligarchy of federal judges.

You can’t simultaneously support incorporation and the original Constitution. They are hopelessly at odds.

BUNK.

Is the BoR part of the Constitution or not? (Yes it is)

A6S2

This Constitution... shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
 
Well, I'll be dipped.

In all these years I never noticed that subtle but significant difference.

Essentially what we have here is a right considered so important that it "incorporated" itself, long before the concept of incorporation was adjudicated.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jmdrake again.

It never had to be "Incorporated" beyond being a Constitutional Amendment.
A6S2 "Incorporates" the BoR. (With the possible exception of all or part of the 1stA since it specifies "Congress shall make no law" at the beginning)
 
I just wish we can all live together happily, until that time, I can surely see that some people in some places would feel the need to be protected. Where I live nothing ever really happens so I really see no need for carrying a weapon. And it's not allowed here either... Doesn't stop the criminals from having them, but they tend to shoot each other for the most part.

I'm happy that the SC looks at the 2nd for what it says, not what they consider it should be today. That's encouraging. Why does that matter to me ? Well, the outlook on European stability isn't that great. At least, that's my perception.
Perfect example of why gun control laws do not work.
 
Would be nice to get a mandate this mandate that executive order this executive order that, pronoun this pronoun that, BS ruling to eliminate face masks, injected poisons, and other liberty effecting issues.
 
Second Rule of Gun Safety: Never depend on the government to prevent government from taking your guns.

Ac2zubW.jpg
 
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