Santorum says Gay Marriage the most important fight of our lifetime

[erowe1]

It means excommunicated. It does not mean condemned to hell because the Church does not have that power.

But there are different degrees of excommunication. And anathema is the highest, right? At least that's what that quote from Pope Zachary says in the Catholic Encyclopedia article I linked. And that quote does say that anathema includes condemnation to eternal fire with Satan. If that doesn't put them in the same category as a false religion, then where do false religions fall on the spectrum? Are they somehow even worse off than these anathematized people? Because if they're not, then in effect I don't see the difference between the Catholic Church saying Protestants are anathematized and Sola_Fide saying Catholics are a false religion.

 

[Jumbo Shrimp]

That doesn't help. Your earlier quote was in answer to my question of what free will is. Since that definition is still in question, it needs to be explained without just saying again that we have free will.

God chooses to give some people free will that is going to choose one thing and he gives other people free will that is going to choose another thing. So it still gets back to God deciding beforehand what each person will choose, such that their choice to cooperate with God or not to cooperate with God depends entirely on a prior choice by God. Right? Using the words "free will" doesn't change that fact.

When God created the world He, being omniscience, foresaw the Reprobate’s rejection to His Grace and let them use their freedom to do so. Yet God still wants them to be saved and still gives them sufficient Grace.

 

[erowe1]

So... gay marriage... wasn't this thread supposed to be about that or something?

Yeah, I know. Threadjacking.

Were you really hoping to open the thread and read another comment about gay marriage though?

 

[erowe1]

When God created the world He, being omniscience, foresaw the Reprobate’s rejection to His Grace and let them use their freedom to do so. Yet God still wants them to be saved and still gives them sufficient Grace.

But he doesn't give the reprobate grace that effectually results in them choosing to accept him with their free will. Meanwhile he does give the elect grace that effectually results in them choosing to accept him with their free will. So ultimately, God still chose certain specific people based on nothing they do, will, or choose, to be saved, while everybody else will assuredly not be saved.

Is that right?

 

[dinosaur]

But he doesn't give the reprobate grace that effectually results in them choosing to accept him with their free will. Meanwhile he does give the elect grace that effectually results in them choosing to accept him with their free will. So ultimately, God still chose certain specific people based on nothing they do, will, or choose, to be saved, while everybody else will assuredly not be saved.

Is that right?

Not true in Catholicism, everyone is given enough grace to choose of their own free will.

 

[MelissaWV]

Yeah, I know. Threadjacking.

Were you really hoping to open the thread and read another comment about gay marriage though?

Not really, since people have already said "Get Government out of it" a dozen times, which about covers it

But still it is a little strange to see the salvation thread eating up other threads like kudzu.

 

[erowe1]

Not true in Catholicism, everyone is given enough grace to choose of their own free will.

So then, in your understanding of Catholicism, everyone freely chooses to accept Christ? No one chooses not to?

 

[TonySutton]

Not really, since people have already said "Get Government out of it" a dozen times, which about covers it

But still it is a little strange to see the salvation thread eating up other threads like kudzu.

I would take kudzu over this discussion about salvation and I lived in GA for a short time

I am surprised a mod has not taken the time to strip out this off topic chatter and make a new thread in Religion Forum

 

[erowe1]

I would take kudzu over this discussion about salvation and I lived in GA for a short time

I am surprised a mod has not taken the time to strip out this off topic chatter and make a new thread in Religion Forum

I wouldn't mind that. I wouldn't want to start a new thread from scratch with stuff that was said here left here.

Frankly, this whole thread could be in the religion subforum.

Then again, the way I view public policy, so could every other thread.

 

[Karsten]

He added that it is even more important that the movement to block abortion in America because marriage will "disintegrate" along with the American family if same-sex marriage becomes legal.

Shouldn't that argument be discredited now that 6 states plus dc have legalized gay marriage, as other countries?

 

[Karsten]

I really hope Rand distances himself from the social conservatives in 2016.

 

[erowe1]

He added that it is even more important that the movement to block abortion in America because marriage will "disintegrate" along with the American family if same-sex marriage becomes legal.

Wow. I can't even imagine what he even means by marriage in America disintegrating. It's like when environmentalists talk about something destroying the planet.

 

[erowe1]

I really hope Rand distances himself from the social conservatives in 2016.

Not gonna happen. And that's a good thing, because doing that would remove any chance of getting the nomination.

 

[Sola_Fide]

When God created the world He, being omniscience, foresaw the Reprobate’s rejection to His Grace and let them use their freedom to do so. Yet God still wants them to be saved and still gives them sufficient Grace.

So God chose to create a world in which there are reprobates.

Why would God "want" reprobates to be saved when He specifically chose to create a world with reprobates who will be damned? If God wanted reprobates to be saved, why didn't He create the world where everyone actually is saved? Is God schizophrenic?

 

[MelissaWV]

I wouldn't mind that. I wouldn't want to start a new thread from scratch with stuff that was said here left here.

Frankly, this whole thread could be in the religion subforum.

Then again, the way I view public policy, so could every other thread.

It's already there. That was my point. There is a thread about salvation through grace that was started a day or two ago.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...e-Alone-A-Life-Or-Death-Issue&highlight=grace

 

[dinosaur]

So then, in your understanding of Catholicism, everyone freely chooses to accept Christ? No one chooses not to?

That is not my understanding of Catholicism and not what I said. People are free to choose one way or the other.

But to get this thread back on track....

Catholics like Santorum should realize that the state doesn't have the authority to take away a freedom that God gave us. God gave us the freedom to reject Him if we choose to. People should be free to start a religion that accepts gay marriage if they want to. Recognizing someone else's right to believe what they want doesn't make me culpable for their decisions. Not stepping in when force is initiated against another person does make me culpable. The state does have the authority to protect society from those who initiate force against another person (i.e. murder, theft), but even then justice should be handled at the lowest level of society possible according to the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. I've read articles in Catholic magazines promoting the idea that the State does have an interest in marriage, but these articles never specify where in catholic teaching this authority is found. Santorum is such a lightweight in debates, he doesn't seem to understand the basics of Catholicism. I've always wondered how someone could come to such zeal without understanding the basics. It really makes me wonder if he isn't just playing a part, either that or he is just an airhead.

 

[Sola_Fide]

That is not my understanding of Catholicism and not what I said. People are free to choose one way or the other.

Where does the Bible talk about this power in the human will. We know the verses about the commands to follow the law....I'm not talking about those. Those are commands, and it does not follow that just because something is commanded, that the command can be followed. Ought does not imply can.

Where in the Bible is this power of the human will and the nature of man's free will specifically talked about? Where is the word "free will" in the Bible? Where is the concept talked about?

 

[king_nothing_]

I never said I don't support religious freedom. But "Christians" marrying two homosexuals automatically makes them non-Christian because they reject what Scripture plainly says.

LOL. By that logic...

If you mix cotton and linen in your clothes, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death a child who curses at or strikes his or her parents, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't kill people for working on the Sabbath, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death homosexuals, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death adulterers, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't stone to death a women who lost her virginity before marriage, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't stone to death followers of other religions, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't kill innocent children for the sins of their fathers, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't approve of slavery, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't believe women are beneath men in worth, you are a non-Christian.
If you have a tattoo, you are a non-Christian.
If you shave or cut hair off the side of your head, you are a non-Christian.
If you crossbreed different kinds of animals, you are a non-Christian.
If you have a variety of crops on the same field, you are a non-Christian.

I could go on.

Do I need to cite chapters and verses, or are you a good Christian and know them already?

 

[Jumbo Shrimp]

LOL. By that logic...

If you mix cotton and linen in your clothes, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death a child who curses at or strikes his or her parents, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't kill people for working on the Sabbath, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death homosexuals, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't put to death adulterers, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't stone to death a women who lost her virginity before marriage, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't stone to death followers of other religions, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't kill innocent children for the sins of their fathers, you are a non-Christian.
If you don't approve of slavery, you are a non-Christian.
If you have a tattoo, you are a non-Christian.
If you shave or cut hair off the side of your head, you are a non-Christian.
If you crossbreed different kinds of animals, you are a non-Christian.
If you have a variety of crops on the same field, you are a non-Christian.

I could go on.

Do I need to cite chapters and verses, or are you a good Christian and know them already?

You know Christians aren't bound by Old Testament Judaic law, right?

If you don't believe women are beneath men in worth, you are a non-Christian.

If you believe that then you are not a Christian because you reject that man and woman are both made in the image of God.

 

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Where does the Bible talk about this power in the human will. We know the verses about the commands to follow the law....I'm not talking about those. Those are commands, and it does not follow that just because something is commanded, that the command can be followed. Ought does not imply can.

Where in the Bible is this power of the human will and the nature of man's free will specifically talked about? Where is the word "free will" in the Bible? Where is the concept talked about?

Sirach 15:14-17
When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

Sirach 31:8,10
Happy the man ... he could have sinned but did not; could have done evil but would not, ...

Genesis 4:7
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth today to witness against you; I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live.

Joshua 24:15
If it does not please you to serve the LORD, decide today whom you will serve, the gods your fathers served beyond the River or the gods of the Amorites in whose country you are dwelling. As for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.

2 Samuel 24:12
Go and say to David, 'This is what the LORD says: I offer you three alternatives; choose one of them, and I will inflict it on you."

1 Chronicles 21:10
Go, tell David: Thus says the LORD: I offer you three alternatives; choose one of them, and I will inflict it on you.

Job 34:12
Let us discern for ourselves what is right; let us learn between us what good.

Proverbs 3:31
Envy not the lawless man, and choose none of his ways.

Isaiah 1:19-20
If you are willing, and obey, you shall eat the good things of the land; if you refuse and resist, the sword shall consume you: for the mouth of LORD has spoken.

Isaiah 7:15-16
He shall be living on curds and honey by the time he learns to reject bad and choose the good. For before the child learns to reject the bad and choose the good, the land of those two kinds whom you had shall be deserted.

Galatians 5:1
It was for liberty that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time!

Galatians 5:13
My brothers, remember that you have been called to live in freedom--but not a freedom that gives free reign to the flesh.

1 Peter 2:16
Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cloak for vice.