Rudy blames US citiziens for 9/11

[SlapItHigh]

Why does no one point this out?

Rudy says that we were attacked on 9/11 because they hate us for our freedom of religion, freedom for women, etc. Isn't he essentially saying that each of us "invited" the attacks by exercising our freedoms in our everyday lives? Since I am a woman living "free", is it my fault?

We, as citizens, have little to no control over policies in the middle east. We do however, have full control over how we act in our daily lives which is the reason Rudy says we were attacked. If anyone is blaming the people of the United States for the 9/11 attacks, it is Rudy Giuliani and everyone who agrees with him.

So many want us to give up much of our freedom in the name of terrorism, but that seems to be unrelated to the fact that those same people claim that our freedoms are what caused us to be attacked in the first place. Although I still wouldn't agree, at least it would make more sense if they said we should give up our freedoms because that is why we were attacked in the first place.

 

[tnvoter]

rudy doesn't have the back of the GoP without the christian vote, which for the most part, he's lost now.

the more people who see actually see what paul's full answer was without being cutoff by a hannity or a guiliani the more people agree.

 

[thuja]

freedoms

Very smart, S, did you notice RG saying everyone should have an ID card? All the others are about taking away more of our freedoms.

 

[qednick]

Very smart, S, did you notice RG saying everyone should have an ID card? All the others are about taking away more of our freedoms.

My point exactly. It's a clear case of using the fear of loss of freedom to get people to give up their freedoms. Ironic.

 

[zMtLlC]

No, he's not saying that at all. Remember, he lived through 9/11 and was Mayor of New York. He's always right on anything about September 11th.

 

[Suzu]

Ghouliani makes my stomach turn! And I have an iron stomach! But in the long run I believe his outburst will have worked to Dr. Paul's advantage.

 

[mdh]

If you want to learn a little more about "ID Cards" and some of the technology behind them, check out http://www.rfidiot.org

A lot of the content is very technical, but they sell readers and other hardware (in GBP, but they ship to the US!) There're portions that anyone can understand despite the technical stuff near the top.

 

[qednick]

Every time I see or hear Guiliani, he reminds me of an old saying:

If it looks like shit and smells like shit, it's a turd!

Sorry for being vulgar.

 

[Defeat_the_Neocons]

Ghouliani might as well have "I survived 9/11" tattooed on his forehead so he won't have to remind us every 2 minutes.

Exploiting a tragedy is all he has going for. What did he do anyways besides pose for a few photos? Nothing.

 

[angelatc]

I can't participate in a non-baised discussion about RG. He's like nail on a chalkboard.

3rd wife - handled affair with her so badly his children still won't speak to him.

He stopped the general public from taking pictures of the 9/11 site almost immediately.

His MySpace plays "Hail To The Chief."

He purposely and openly ignored the NY Constitution to get a bond deal done.

I like the tattoo idea though. And to be honest, I think he probably did a good job of getting his city back up and running, without waiting for the Feds to come in and handle it. But 9/11 was a career boost for him - he was seeping bad press everywhere until those towers took the hit.

 

[Defeat_the_Neocons]

I can't participate in a non-baised discussion about RG. He's like nail on a chalkboard.

3rd wife - handled affair with her so badly his children still won't speak to him.

He stopped the general public from taking pictures of the 9/11 site almost immediately.

His MySpace plays "Hail To The Chief."

He purposely and openly ignored the NY Constitution to get a bond deal done.

I like the tattoo idea though. And to be honest, I think he probably did a good job of getting his city back up and running, without waiting for the Feds to come in and handle it. But 9/11 was a career boost for him - he was seeping bad press everywhere until those towers took the hit.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSk4SUpWVuY&NR=1

 

[thePhilosopher]

Why does no one point this out?

Rudy says that we were attacked on 9/11 because they hate us for our freedom of religion, freedom for women, etc. Isn't he essentially saying that each of us "invited" the attacks by exercising our freedoms in our everyday lives? Since I am a woman living "free", is it my fault?

While I think the "they hate us for our freedom" crowd is wrong, you're still missing the point. The main question is this: where does freedom come from? We, the people, create government in order to protect ourselves and our freedoms. Ultimately, yes, the power comes from the people, but it comes from us as a collective and not as individuals. So, your take on Rudy is off, IMO.

We, as citizens, have little to no control over policies in the middle east. We do however, have full control over how we act in our daily lives which is the reason Rudy says we were attacked. If anyone is blaming the people of the United States for the 9/11 attacks, it is Rudy Giuliani and everyone who agrees with him.

So many want us to give up much of our freedom in the name of terrorism, but that seems to be unrelated to the fact that those same people claim that our freedoms are what caused us to be attacked in the first place. Although I still wouldn't agree, at least it would make more sense if they said we should give up our freedoms because that is why we were attacked in the first place.

Nobody is blaming the citizens of the U.S. for 9/11, not even Rudy. You simply cannot make that case, at least from what he's said in the debates. Even if you could, I don't think there is a complication with sacrificing certain freedoms (like going through an airport and boarding a plane) for security, even if you believe that the terrorists attacked us because they hate freedom. Beefing up security measures might limit some freedoms, but not surrender essential freedoms (such as freedom of press, speech, etc.).

 

[Brandybuck]

Do the islamofascists hate us for our religous tolerance and immoral decadance? Yes. But not enough to attack us thousands of miles away. Not enough to strap dynamite to their chests. Not enough to encourage their children to commit suicide over it. People don't do that kind of stuff because of hate.

People do that kind of stuff because they've been invaded. They do it because infidels are occupying their holy land. They do it because their brother was killed. If you kill an Arab in Iraq, you make an enemy in Syria. If you kill a Muslim in Chechnya, you make an enemy in Saudi Arabia. It is our interventionist foreign policy that makes the terrorist so angry he is willing to die to kill us.

This of course does not excuse the terrorist. Those who planned and orchestrated the attacks need to be brought to justice. But that is insufficient cause for a new policy of unending warfare.

 

[Gee]

I noticed it as well, SlapItHigh. This seems to be a common thread amung all government programs. "The [People | Free Market | etc] have problem X, which they cannot solve on their own, so the government needs to come in and fix it for them!"

And yet the government rarely ever examines its own actions to see if it is the cause of the problem. It is usually assumed to be some inherent flaw in society or the world as a whole, which can be fixed by a government program.

 

[SlapItHigh]

thePhilosopher, I think you are actually missing my point. I'm not really trying to make a case for anyone blaming the people of the US for 9/11. I realize that I said that, but perhaps I'm not clear in making my point. Forgive me, writing is not my strong suit. What I'm trying to get at is that "if" Ron is blaming the US then so is Rudy and Rudy is doing it more directly. I don't really think either is blaming the US, but if we are going by Rudy's logic here. Somone on another board put it well, he can't have his cake and eat it too.

As far as beefing up security, you've lost me. That is the least of my concerns. We've become a police state. Habeas corpus anyone? Just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[thePhilosopher]

thePhilosopher, I think you are actually missing my point. I'm not really trying to make a case for anyone blaming the people of the US for 9/11. I realize that I said that, but perhaps I'm not clear in making my point. Forgive me, writing is not my strong suit. What I'm trying to get at is that "if" Ron is blaming the US then so is Rudy and Rudy is doing it more directly. I don't really think either is blaming the US, but if we are going by Rudy's logic here. Somone on another board put it well, he can't have his cake and eat it too.

Ah, I see. Since I don't agree with the antecedent of your conditional ("if" Ron is blaming the US), then I don't believe that your consequent (Rudy is blaming the US more directly) follows. I can see grounds for you saying this now, but I think that only the Hannity-types really think that Ron blames the US for 9/11.

As far as beefing up security, you've lost me. That is the least of my concerns. We've become a police state. Habeas corpus anyone? Just the tip of the iceberg.

Sorry to lose you. Well, in interest of not taking this thread off the rails, I won't go too far on this. What scares me is what future leaders might do with the precident set in our time. I believe that the threat justifies some of what has been done in terms of security in post-9/11, but we aren't even TAKING CARE OF THE BOARDERS!!!!! Anyone can walk across with anything and go virtually unchecked for years. The security changes I want are similar to Ron's, though I might go a bit further due to the nature of the threat. We've got the legal precident set for tyranny, and this really scares me. I think the current administration is benign, Lenny-like in that they don't really know what they're doing, but I really fear what is in the future for this country. God help us.

 

[Mort]

but I think that only the Hannity-types really think that Ron blames the US for 9/11.

I think what happens though is someone hears "Ron Paul blames Americans for 9/11". They get emotional because of the subject, don't analyze and believe it right away.