Ron Paul vs Donald Trump - Stefan Moleyneux discussion

He commented on it. He did defend Ron back in the day and he always spoke nicely of Ron.

The difference between Ron and Donald now is that the Donald is much closer to power. There is a lot more lies being spread about Trump and Stefan respects Trump for getting this far.

I literally cannot fathom this. He did NOT speak nicely of Ron back in the day; and he was always dismissive. He was literally incapable of seeing Ron's nuanced approach; that his real goal was education first & foremost:



Stefan was guilty of the purist deviation fallacy.

Reporter: “As you are reflecting back on your campaign, are you unhappy with your party?”

Ron Paul: “Well, it’s not my party. I don’t like politics at all… As far as being pleased I am super pleased with what’s working… I am super-energized and optimistic about what’s happening, because the ideas are changing. What I’m talking about is an ideological revolution.”

I haven't been listening / paying attention to him or his podcasts for about a year. What did I miss? How on earth has it gone all Trumptard?

Anyone who thinks the media's actions against Trump are a vindication of him; as compared to Ron's treatment is demented.

 
Ron, to my knowledge, never mentioned a border wall.

He was against a border "fence" and voted against it in Congress. He also talked about the border fence being used to keep Americans IN the US.

Ron's position on border security was to bring all of our troops home and station them at the borders. Personally, that's a far more costly and dangerous idea than a fence.

Walls and fences are nonsense. They should just end all free shit to immigrants and build a North/South Trans-American rail system with free rides to Canada with free brochures on the myriad free shit the Queen offers up there.
 
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The pre-1914 world saw no immigration issues or policies, and no real border controls. Instead, there was free movement in the real sense; there were no questions asked, people were treated respectfully and one did not even need official documents to enter or leave a country. This all changed with the First World War, after which states seem to compete with having the least humane view on foreigners seeking refuge within its territory.The “immigration policies” of modern states is yet another licensing scheme of the 20th century: the state has enforced licensing of movement. It is virtually impossible to move across the artificial boundaries of the state’s territory in the search for opportunity, love, or work; one needs a state-issued license to move one’s body, be it across a river, over a mountain or through a forest. The Berlin Wall may be gone, but the basic principle of it lives and thrives. […]

Yet the immigration issue seems to be somewhat of a divide within libertarianism, with two seemingly conflicting views on how to deal with population growth through immigration. On the one hand, it is not possible as a libertarian to support a regulated immigration policy, since government itself is never legitimate. This is the somewhat classical libertarian standpoint on immigration: open borders.

On the other hand, the theory of natural rights and, especially, private property rights tells us anyone could move anywhere — but they need first to purchase their own piece of land on which to live or obtain necessary permission from the owner. Otherwise immigration becomes a violation of property rights, a trespass. This is an interpretation of a libertarian-principled immigration policy presented by Hans-Hermann Hoppe a few years ago, which since then has gained increasing recognition and support.

I intend to show that the libertarian idea is as powerful as we claim, and that there is no reason we should not be able to reach consensus in the immigration issue. Both sides in this debate, the anti-government-policy as well as the pro-private-property, somehow fail to realize there is no real contradiction in their views.
The anti-government-policy immigration standpoint (or, the open borders argument) and the pro-private-property ditto are two sides of a coin; their respective proponents have simply fallen prey to the devil in the details. Let’s go through the main arguments of both camps, and see to their respective strengths and weaknesses, and I’ll show you how this is true. […]

We must not forget libertarianism is not a teleological dogma striving for a certain end; it rather sees individual freedom and rights as the natural point of departure for a just society. When people are truly free, whatever will be will be. Hence, the question is not what the effects of a certain immigration policy would be, but whether there should be one at all.

From a libertarian point of view, it is not relevant to discuss whether to support immigration policy A, B, or C. The answer is not open borders but no borders; the libertarian case is not whether private property rights restrict immigration or not, but that a free society is based on private property. Both of these views are equally libertarian — but they apply the libertarian idea from different points of view. The open borders argument provides the libertarian stand on immigration from a macro view, and therefore stresses the libertarian values of tolerance and openness.[2] The private property argument assumes the micro view and therefore stresses the individual and natural rights.

There is no conflict between these views, except when each perspective is presented as a policy to be enforced by the state. With the state as it is today, should we as libertarians champion open borders or enforced property rights (with citizens’ claims on “state property”)? Both views are equally troublesome when applied within the framework of the state, but they do not contradict each other; they are not opposites.

Per Bylund, The Libertarian Immigration Conundrum

^ The solution.
 
I don't think Ron Paul is completely opposed to a wall, he just knows that there are more effective ways to deal with the problem - they both seem to agree so I'm not sure what the issue is.

Ron has clearly come out AGAINST having a border wall.

"Rep. Ron Paul has a problem with the idea of a U.S. border fence.

'The people that want big fences and guns, sure, we could secure the border,' the congressman noted. 'A barbed wire fence with machine guns, that would do the trick. I don’t believe that is what America is all about.

Every time you think about this toughness on the border and ID cards and REAL IDs, think it’s a penalty against the American people too. I think this fence business is designed and may well be used against us and keep us in. In economic turmoil, the people want to leave with their capital and there’s capital controls and there’s people controls. Every time you think about the fence, think about the fences being used against us, keeping us in.'


http://nation.foxnews.com/ron-paul/2011/09/07/ron-paul-border-fence-will-be-used-keep-us
 
On the other hand, the theory of natural rights and, especially, private property rights tells us anyone could move anywhere — but they need first to purchase their own piece of land on which to live or obtain necessary permission from the owner. Otherwise immigration becomes a violation of property rights, a trespass.​


Not at all. The "State" cannot own land. The government is neither an individual nor a group of individuals. Therefore it cannot have any rights, including property rights. "State" land is nothing more than unowned land. And movement across unowned land is never restricted. To think otherwise is to turn the State into a King, automatically controlling all land and doling out as it chooses, a modern day feudal system. This might explain why some seem to think property taxes are just, the lord demanding his cut of your work on the lord's land, but it is completely antithetical to any formulation of individual liberty.

So crossing a state or national border, across unowned land, is not trespassing in the least.​
 
Ron has clearly come out AGAINST having a border wall.

"Rep. Ron Paul has a problem with the idea of a U.S. border fence.

'The people that want big fences and guns, sure, we could secure the border,' the congressman noted. 'A barbed wire fence with machine guns, that would do the trick. I don’t believe that is what America is all about.

Every time you think about this toughness on the border and ID cards and REAL IDs, think it’s a penalty against the American people too. I think this fence business is designed and may well be used against us and keep us in. In economic turmoil, the people want to leave with their capital and there’s capital controls and there’s people controls. Every time you think about the fence, think about the fences being used against us, keeping us in.'


http://nation.foxnews.com/ron-paul/2011/09/07/ron-paul-border-fence-will-be-used-keep-us


That's fine, I'm not a big fan of a border fence either. I prefer getting rid of entitlements, that is a much better solution. That is the solution Ron Paul prefers, that is the solution Stefan prefers, I think that is the solution we all prefer.

Ron Paul had this principled stance that he was tired of the government expanding to fix problems that they themselves created. He saw the wall as government expansion to fix a problem they created through entitlements, hence the principled stand he took against it.

However, Ron Paul was FOR a HUMAN WALL at the border, but the catch was we didn't have to expand government - we could use the troops who are overseas killing people and put them at the border, kill two birds with one stone so to speak..

The reason a lot of people want to see the wall built is because they know the government won't get rid of entitlements but they know they might be able to get them to build a wall or fence. So they are being a little more realistic than Ron Paul on this one.

The other issue with Ron Paul's position is that by allowing more people in, we will be expanding government even more than if we just built the damn fence because they will be voting for socialist policies.

Personally I agree with Ron Paul, I wish we lived in a country where we didn't need to fence off our border, it's un-American.. But socialism is even more un-American. Clearly he sees a reason to protect the border and clearly protecting the border will help slow the growth of govt. somewhat so it's really just tiny little semantics and minor issues we are dealing with here, no huge philosophical differences that you guys are trying to turn this into.
 
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Molyneux is off the rails and has been for a long time. He is veering into complete narcissism, if not already there.

He's actually the most informative and well-researched podcasters on the internet. I don't always agree with him, but by shutting him out completely you are doing yourself an enormous disservice.

There are a lot of lies and bullshit out there about Stef, I've run into quite a lot by anti-Stef posters on this site. These people tend to have very low reasoning skills or are very uninformed.
 
Not at all. The "State" cannot own land. The government is neither an individual nor a group of individuals. Therefore it cannot have any rights, including property rights. "State" land is nothing more than unowned land. And movement across unowned land is never restricted. To think otherwise is to turn the State into a King, automatically controlling all land and doling out as it chooses, a modern day feudal system. This might explain why some seem to think property taxes are just, the lord demanding his cut of your work on the lord's land, but it is completely antithetical to any formulation of individual liberty.

So crossing a state or national border, across unowned land, is not trespassing in the least.

How does one become an owner of land?
 
He's actually the most informative and well-researched podcasters on the internet. I don't always agree with him, but by shutting him out completely you are doing yourself an enormous disservice.

There are a lot of lies and bull$#@! out there about Stef, I've run into quite a lot by anti-Stef posters on this site. These people tend to have very low reasoning skills or are very uninformed.

Agree 100%.

ALWAYS something to think about from his amazing perspicacity regarding
current events (and watching how well he handles some of those callers).

Bonus: ...and if Stefbot ever does flip out, his wife is fully licensed
and standing by, ready to comfort and medicate him, if necessary...
So no worries there mate!
 
Not at all. The "State" cannot own land. The government is neither an individual nor a group of individuals. Therefore it cannot have any rights, including property rights. "State" land is nothing more than unowned land. And movement across unowned land is never restricted. To think otherwise is to turn the State into a King, automatically controlling all land and doling out as it chooses, a modern day feudal system. This might explain why some seem to think property taxes are just, the lord demanding his cut of your work on the lord's land, but it is completely antithetical to any formulation of individual liberty.

So crossing a state or national border, across unowned land, is not trespassing in the least.

Yeah, you clearly didn't understand it. I didn't see any "state" mentioned specifically in that excerpt of yours; aye? Put down the pitchfork.

Who is granting the state rights? :rolleyes:


Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation-State by Murray Rothbard

However, on rethinking immigration on the basis of the anarcho-capitalist model, it became clear to me that a totally privatized country would not have “open borders” at all. If every piece of land in a country were owned by some person, group, or corporation, this would mean that no immigrant could enter there unless invited to enter and allowed to rent, or purchase, property. A totally privatized country would be as “closed” as the particular inhabitants and property owners desire. It seems clear, then, that the regime of open borders that exists de facto in the U.S. really amounts to a compulsory opening by the central state, the state in charge of all streets and public land areas, and does not genuinely reflect the wishes of the proprietors.

Under total privatization, many local conflicts and “externality” problems—not merely the immigration problem—would be neatly settled. With every locale and neighborhood owned by private firms, corporations, or contractual communities, true diversity would reign, in accordance with the preferences of each community. Some neighborhoods would be ethnically or economically diverse, while others would be ethnically or economically homogeneous. Some localities would permit pornography or prostitution or drugs or abortions, others would prohibit any or all of them. The prohibitions would not be state imposed, but would simply be requirements for residence or use of some person’s or community’s land area. While statists who have the itch to impose their values on everyone else would be disappointed, every group or interest would at least have the satisfaction of living in neighborhoods of people who share its values and preferences. While neighborhood ownership would not provide Utopia or a panacea for all conflicts, it would at least provide a “second-best” solution that most people might be willing to live with.​

To clarify Rothbard’s point it goes without saying there would obviously still be individual ownership of housing and property but those arrangements would not generally solve the ‘externality problem’ posited.

In such a world what would immigration look like? How do the immigrants get there, wherever there is? It would be via land, air, or sea and it would involve voluntarily contracting for means of transport. Given economies of scale, the division of labor and specialization; mass transport services would likely prevail amongst consumers as the main means of long distance travel.

When the immigrants reach land they are going to reach someones private property. In order to enter the premises they would need to have permission (an invitation) to land or they are uninvited and trespassing. The property owner (or agent on their behalf) has the right to turn them or anyone away for whatever reason. Such agents representative of the business may be traffic controllers, or marine pilots. However, since these businesses are endeavoring to meet the needs of customers their policies would tend towards being as welcoming and least intrusive as possible. Security checks would not necessarily be uniform, the market would potentially range from no security to ultra security with consumers obviously having an actual choice.

Since there would be a myriad of different businesses and thus locations, a rejection from one does not entail a rejection from all. The libertarian position is neither “closed” or “open” borders, it is “no borders”. Thus the beauty of no state!
 
From whom?

Practically speaking, one actually can obtain allodial title in some states by contacting their local governments and paying several years property tax in advance. As for the principle that we all ought to hold our properties in fee allodium, that's kind of a joke, since obviously the state can always extort from us (tax) whatever amount they like, because they have the guns. Personally, I wouldn't bother with it; better to just pay the man his blood money.
 
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