Ron Paul & voluntarists

[Conza88]

Blah blah blah, video form for those that are slow .

Ron Paul "supporters" - stop trying to deny reality. He is a voluntarist / anarcho-capitalist / natural law / private law supporter.

Get a grip in terms of - THAT doesn't mean you also need to advocate anarcho-capitalism. Just don't EVER defend taxation.. like Ron Paul, it's pretty simple.

 

[Travlyr]

It is not fun to ask you a question, have it ignored, and then be expected to answer your question.

Believe me, I know the feeling. Back at post #91 when the video you posted misrepresented what is a constitutional republic ... the State ... The State of Washington for example. Crickets.

Answer the question.

Where in the Constitutions do they say the purpose of the State is to provide security?
Articles & Sections

And be honest to your recruits. Insincerity is not a trait of Ron Paul

When will you get around to answering that question?

Do you support the right of the individual to secede?
Do you believe Ron Paul supports the individuals right to secede?
Do you think he would advocate the use of violence to stop peaceful individuals from seceding?

If the answer to #1 and #2 is YES, then how is this not Voluntaryism?

My answer to #1 & #2 is Yes. They are constitutional principles. #3 is not a fair question... of course not ... have you studied Dr. Paul at all? No one is saying anything of the sort as far as I can tell.

If the answer to #3 is YES, then in your opinion, how could so many Voluntaryists and Anarchists (Tom Woods, Bob Murphy, Mary Ruwart, Doug Casey, Stephan Kinsella etc.) logically support Ron Paul when this would mean he is in clear opposition to them? And why would Ron Paul admire and associate with so many anarchists when a YES to #3 would make him directly opposed to one of their main fundamental beliefs (the NAP)?

Why do you believe it appropriate to label people? Let them speak for themselves.

You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. - Ron Paul

So long as "THE STATE" is funded through force (which it is right now), then yes, he does want to end it. Is anyone claiming he wants to end voluntary means to governance (law,order,defense, property titles)? No.

Re-defining words and then expecting others to understand what you mean doesn't work.

 

[Conza88]

Admin note - removed due to forum guidelines violation.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Re-defining words and then expecting others to understand what you mean doesn't work.

Yes it does. Scientists and specialists of all varieties coin new words and redefine old ones all the time. Before the advent of scanners, to "scan a document" meant to look over it with one's eyes. There was a time when "gay" was basically synonymous with happy. Now, we don't use it in that way very often because the modern understanding of the word (homosexual) has become much more common. However, you're right to the extent that those coining new words or expanding the language are responsible for explaining their usage.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Maybe it's just the day I've had, but I'm exhausted with this. I've had more fruitful conversations with a pint of Guinness, and more entertaining, too. And it's turned into such a circular discussion, my head's spinning like it was well more than just the one pint.

 

[newbitech]

Look... when you stfu and acknowledge that Ron Paul is actually a voluntarist, you just might find that there is no need for me and other real supporters to harp on about it & defend true liberty... THUS accomplishing your goal of it not being brought up and talked about to apparently "scare" new "supporters" away.

Hmmm... I will not acknowledge that Ron Paul is a voluntarist until I here him

As government is defined as a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force and coercion in a given geographical region, voluntaryists call for its abolition.

I see that voluntaryist call for abolition of government because it apparently is "defined as a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force and coercion".

So lets see, has Ron Paul called for the abolition of "government". No I don't think so. And since Ron Paul is an advocate of self-"government" he clearly believes that some form of government is necessary. So I wonder if voluntaryist consider self-government to be a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force and coercion in that little geographical environment around their person? Certainly that is ok and desirable for the functioning of an all voluntary interactive society?

Ron Paul may share some of the same views as people who label themselves voluntaryist, but as far as I can tell, Ron Paul has gone on national TV and vigorously defended his conservatism and Republican credentials.

Anyways, after all this time, you are still waiting for others to "STFU" so that your's is the only voice heard. If that is how a "voluntary" society works, then I'll be looking for a new word to describe my interactions with other individuals with opinions and ideas different than my own.

Ron Paul IS NOT a "voluntaryist".

 

[heavenlyboy34]

newbitech-Conza has oversimplified Voluntaryism so much so as to make it practically synonymous with anarchism. Please know that he doesn't speak for all voluntaryists (or many at all, really).

 

[newbitech]

newbitech-Conza has oversimplified Voluntaryism so much so as to make it practically synonymous with anarchism. Please know that he doesn't speak for all voluntaryists (or many at all, really).

That's ok, I just didn't really appreciate him telling someone to STFU and accept something that might not be true and then putting in to question someone's support. So

I could have discredited voluntarism but that is not what I am trying to do. I am simply rejecting the label, which it seems like what many others in opposition are trying to do as well.

Doesn't mean I don't believe in the idea, hell I support the idea. But here is one big problem.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/voluntarism

World English Dictionary
voluntarism (ˈvɒləntəˌrɪzəm)

— n
1. philosophy the theory that the will rather than the intellect is the ultimate principle of reality

Can you see how I might have a problem with someone forcing their will on me in conversation, rather than relying on intellect, even if they hold a principle that supposes I have none simply because my will is not the guiding light in my life? Seems like a backwards definition in the context of this thread if you ask me. Or depending on you perspective, it is very subtle irony.

 

[Theocrat]

Voluntarism Applies to All

Everyone is a voluntarist, in some way. I believe in voluntary associations, but I also believe in having a civil government structure in society, to protect God-given rights and punish civil evildoers. Just because someone believes in having a state does not exclude them from having voluntary associations in other realms of life.

 

[Travlyr]

It is not fun to ask you a question, have it ignored, and then be expected to answer your question.

I answered your question. Now it it your turn. Do you support Ron Paul for President of the Untied States?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

That's ok, I just didn't really appreciate him telling someone to STFU and accept something that might not be true and then putting in to question someone's support. So

I could have discredited voluntarism but that is not what I am trying to do. I am simply rejecting the label, which it seems like what many others in opposition are trying to do as well.

Doesn't mean I don't believe in the idea, hell I support the idea. But here is one big problem.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/voluntarism



Can you see how I might have a problem with someone forcing their will on me in conversation, rather than relying on intellect, even if they hold a principle that supposes I have none simply because my will is not the guiding light in my life? Seems like a backwards definition in the context of this thread if you ask me. Or depending on you perspective, it is very subtle irony.

Voluntarism is not necessarily voluntaryism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism, or voluntarism,[1] is a philosophy according to which all forms of human association should be voluntary as far as possible.
Watner, Carl. On the History of the Word "Voluntaryism". The Voluntaryist. Retrieved on 2009-04-01.

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary offers the following definitions, citing usage that dates back to the 1830s: voluntar[y]ism - "The principle that the Church or schools should be independent of the State and supported by voluntary contributions.
voluntar[y]ist - "An advocate or adherent of voluntarism or voluntaryism."

​

I appreciate your civility, btw.

 

[Wesker1982]

#3 is not a fair question... of course not ...

If the answer to #1 and #2 is YES, then how is this not Voluntaryism? If the answer to #3 is NO, then how is this not Voluntaryism?

And if those are your answers, where exactly do they contradict these statements made by Rothbard:

But, of course, if each person may secede from government, we have virtually arrived at the purely free society, where defense is supplied along with all other services by the free market and where the invasive State has ceased to exist.

Once admit any right of secession whatever, and there is no logical stopping-point short of the right of individual secession, which logically entails anarchism, since then individuals may secede and patronize their own defense agencies, and the State has crumbled.

Don't ignore how Rothbard defines the State here. It is not state as in California. Rothbard is using the term State as in a non-voluntary, coercively established, and coercively maintained monopoly over a certain geographical area. Ignoring the definition in this context is a blatant red herring.

Also FWIW, no one has even attempted to address the subject of secession as presented by Rothbard here. I assume it is because you would either (a) have to admit that you advocate the use of violence on peaceful non-criminals who wish to secede, or (b) advocate Voluntaryism. There is no middle ground, and you know it.

have you studied Dr. Paul at all?

Yes. I have read all of his books which have lead to my conclusion that he is a Voluntaryist. Especially the quotes from Liberty Defined I posted on either the 1st or 2nd page of this thread.

I answered your question. Now it it your turn. Do you support Ron Paul for President of the Untied States?

I would really hate to answer this without getting my answer first out of Deborah because I feel if I answer this question now, she will reply to my answer to you while dodging my original question to her. I will give her some time but if she doesn't answer I will PM you my response.

Something else that is good for this thread:

Ron Paul is also on the back of Mary Ruwart's book Healing Our World in an Age of Agression:

Healing Our World bridges the gap between conservatives and liberals, Christians and New Agers, special interests and the common good, with practical solutions to our economic and societal woes. - Ron Paul

It is a book on Voluntaryism and Mary Ruwart is a Voluntaryist.

So here we have Ron Paul stating that the Voluntaryist solutions are practical for economic and social problems.

 

[newbitech]

self-government is government. come back to me with that definition please.

 

[Conza88]

Hmmm... I will not acknowledge that Ron Paul is a voluntarist until I here him...

I see that voluntaryist call for abolition of government because it apparently is "defined as a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force and coercion".

So lets see, has Ron Paul called for the abolition of "government". No I don't think so.

Set up a strawman, knock it down... *claps*

“… In the name of practicality, the opportunist not only loses any chance of advancing others toward the ultimate goal, but he himself gradually loses sight of that goal—as happens with any “sellout” of principle. Thus, suppose that one is writing about taxation. It is not incumbent on the libertarian to always proclaim his full “anarchist” position in whatever he writes; but it is incumbent upon him in no way to praise taxation or condone it; he should simply leave this perhaps glaring vacuum, and wait for the eager reader to begin to question and perhaps come to you for further enlightenment. But if the libertarian says, “Of course, some taxes must be levied,” or something of the sort, he has betrayed the cause.” - Rothbard’s 1961 Confidential Memo to Volker Fund​

Oh wait... but he has said all taxation is theft... lol.

And since Ron Paul is an advocate of self-"government" he clearly believes that some form of government is necessary. So I wonder if voluntaryist consider self-government to be a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force and coercion in that little geographical environment around their person? Certainly that is ok and desirable for the functioning of an all voluntary interactive society?

Ron Paul may share some of the same views as people who label themselves voluntaryist, but as far as I can tell, Ron Paul has gone on national TV and vigorously defended his conservatism and Republican credentials.

Except he’s never advocated it as an end goal, when compared to a voluntaryist society. Philosophically, the question you need to ask is “Compared to what?”

COMPARED to what we have now, would you prefer a return to the size of government as outlined in the US Constitution? (Obviously leaving aside the fact that it would only grow in size again).

Who wouldn't?

Hans-Hermann Hoppe makes the point that absolute monarchy [private owners] > democracy [public owners]... it is relative. That however, doesn't mean he's for absolute monarchy, just that it is better than the other bad.

I mean, do you people not understand basic argumentation? :s Did you not watch the video where Ron Paul explicitly says why he uses the constitution? It's rhetorical bro.​

Anyways, after all this time, you are still waiting for others to "STFU" so that your's is the only voice heard. If that is how a "voluntary" society works, then I'll be looking for a new word to describe my interactions with other individuals with opinions and ideas different than my own.

You're still here, and obviously still don't understand the underpinnings of a free society, given the above.

Ron Paul IS NOT a "voluntaryist".

It's a pity you have absolutely no valid arguments to back that up. Wishful thinking. Just such a shame you don't support true liberty, like Ron Paul .

 

[Conza88]

Admin note - removed due to forum guidelines violation.

 

[Conza88]

Voluntarism is not necessarily voluntaryism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
Voluntaryism, or voluntarism,[1] is a philosophy according to which all forms of human association should be voluntary as far as possible.
Watner, Carl. On the History of the Word "Voluntaryism". The Voluntaryist. Retrieved on 2009-04-01.

The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary offers the following definitions, citing usage that dates back to the 1830s: voluntar[y]ism - "The principle that the Church or schools should be independent of the State and supported by voluntary contributions.
voluntar[y]ist - "An advocate or adherent of voluntarism or voluntaryism."

​

I appreciate your civility, btw.

And we are back to the second page of the thread...

self-government is government. come back to me with that definition please.

And literally the next post after the above...

Self-government, aka voluntarism, aka anarcho-capitalism, aka natural order, aka private law society.

 

[Kotin]

It's awesome to see you posting again, Conza!!

 

[ClayTrainor]

It's awesome to see you posting again, Conza!!

Me too. He's kind of a legend around here.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

It's awesome to see you posting again, Conza!!

qft

 

[newbitech]

I didn't create a strawman Conza. You told someone to STFU and acknowledge that RP is a voluntarist. I simply looked at what the common and dictionary definition of voluntarist are, and Ron Paul doesn't fit that mold. Ron Paul takes voluntarism to mean no coercion. Fine, if that is the only definition you want to use for that, then he is a voluntarist.

Here is your problem. The term voluntarist is also used to describe people who want to get rid of government completely. Also, if you look at the dictionary definition, it does your argument no favors either.

So slapping Ron Paul with extremist type labels is probably not good coming from supposed supporters, while he is in fact campaigning to run the very government you are hoping to abolish.

So don't try and twist the words of the man to fit your ideas. Take your own advice and accept him for who he says he is. A champion of the constitution, a Republican, and a conservative. These are the labels he chooses to use to introduce himself to the masses, this is who he wants to be and how he wants to be remembered.

If you can't accept that, it's fine by me, but I don't appreciate you talking down to people because they don't agree with you twisting the truth. I am not here to argue with you, just pointing out the pretty obvious problem you have once again with slapping labels on RP. 3 years ago, he was an anarchist. That label didn't stick, so now you want to find some other obscure "politically philosophical" idea, and try an attach that singular word as a label for what Ron Paul is.

What is the point you are making? That Ron Paul believes in not using coercion? Cause that is pretty much all he said in the video. Tossing around obscure words as labels that compete with the labels that Ron Paul has chosen for himself, doesn't help his message. I am sure you see that, but I think you are more interested in validating your world view and building a status for your own gain, than you are in actually advancing the cause of freedom in my back yard.

When you interrupt intelligent conversation with belligerent rantings, you absolutely are forcing your will upon others. You use force anytime you punch the keys on your keyboard. You use force when you open your mouth to speak. Force is not inherently a good or bad thing. You force you will upon people by insulting them, egging them on, and pushing their buttons. Maybe you ought to go look up "will". Then when you are done, go back and look up voluntarism once again. Send me a link I can share with others.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/voluntarism

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/force

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intellect