Ron Paul on Immigration. Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul?

[low preference guy]

right-- the product price now reflects the true value of the material+labor that went into that product; when the labor is from the labor-

wrong. it reflects supply and demand.

if very little labor went into unearthing gold from your backward, but there's huge demand for it, the price is really high.

if you went through a lot of labor to build something, but some people with machines built millions of them, the price will be very low, even if you worked a lot.

what you're doing is arguing for the labor theory of value, which was refuted more than 100 years ago. if you're going to debate economics, please educate yourself first. just reading "Economics in One Lesson" will help you fix many errors in your thinking, including the one you made here.

 

[someperson]

Ron Paul knows it's impossible to abolish the Federal Reserve overnight. You must slowly dismantle it over many many years. Incrementalism.

Obviously, you realize my point, then. Dr. Paul's goal is the free-entry of individuals and property. His true position on the borders is that individuals should be able to come, work, and go, as they please, as long as no one, citizen and non-citizen, receives assistance from the state. Citizenship wouldn't be granted to the individuals who come to work, but it would be essentially worthless in this system, anyway.

He's stated that the restriction of immigration leads individuals who get here to be incentivized to stay and hide, in order to keep whatever job they get. They wouldn't risk going home, if they knew that they might not be able to get back. This is a critical point to understand his position.

 

[Deborah K]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Can someone else deal with these economic fallacies, please? I gotta head out for the night, and am going to be quite busy over the next couple of days.

It is easier to get a leg up applying intelligence than wasting time explaining. Join the monopoly side of the force, Luke. Become a statist and the world is your oyster. People will be your cattle. Government will be your bodyguard.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

It's funny because, the anarcho-capitalist presence has been consistently growing everywhere you find a liberty related forum. We have little tolerance for people who advocate the use of coercion and violence against people who have committed no crime against others. That is the definition of tyranny, and we oppose it unapologetically.

Good night everyone... See you in a couple of days.

 

[Deborah K]

It's funny because, the anarcho-capitalist presence has been consistently growing everywhere you find a liberty related forum. We have little tolerance for people who advocate the use of coercion and violence against people who have committed no crime against others.

Good night everyone... See you in a couple of days.

Perhaps they could make their own forum and pat each other on the back. The philosophy, nice as it is, does not fit into the reality of the situation we find ourselves in. We have to work with the tools we have. Utopia cannot be achieved in one giant leap.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

Actually, we don't promote that you do. If you left us alone. Stopped taxing us. Stopped forcing us to abide by your legal laws. We wouldn't give a shit what you guys did. Somehow I doubt that would work because you would soon turn around and blame us for all of your woes. They're stealing our jobs! They're bringing illegals through the country to arrive at their property! They're criminals because....insert whatever you want here.

I don't tell a politician to point a gun at someone to get them to do what I want them to do. Those who believe in the State do. Leave my just property alone. Leave my natural rights alone. Leave my contracts alone. Leave ME alone. I don't want to abide by your rules. I only want to abide by the one natural law.

You still didn't answer my question. You merely reiterated vague concepts. Secure the borders! HOW!!!!!!!! What happens when illegals get through the borders? What about the illegals that are here now? What about employers who hire illegals? How do we identify illegals from legals? Do we not recognize the fifth amendment for illegals? I could go on and on. You still haven't answered anything. You propose centralized solutions to this. It is up to you to come up with the specifics if you propose such centralized schemes.

I still don't understand how people who proclaim to favor private property wish to piss on a persons property and their rights because they want to be the favorites of the gun....How about I tell you, who you can work for. Who you can hire. What jobs you can work. Etc. I wonder how fast you would change your tune...I wonder what your position will be on immigration when the US becomes a staunch tyranny and every country around the world institutes your immigration schemes. I'm sure you will really love it then!

 

[someperson]

It's funny because, the anarcho-capitalist presence has been consistently growing everywhere you find a liberty related forum. We have little tolerance for people who advocate the use of coercion and violence against people who have committed no crime against others. That is the definition of tyranny, and we oppose it unapologetically.

Good night everyone... See you in a couple of days.

Good night Clay

 

[ClayTrainor]

Perhaps they could make their own forum and pat each other on the back.

There's plenty of an-cap forums, but talking to a bunch of people who agree with you doesn't help you learn, or spread the message.

The philosophy, nice as it is, does not fit into the reality of the situation we find ourselves in.

Yes, it does. Getting the constitution to actually do the job that it never did, is a fantasy.

We have to work with the tools we have. Utopia cannot be achieved in one giant leap.

Utopia's don't exist, and will never exist.

Good night Clay

Good night.

Sorry for lying about that being my last post for the night. THIS is my last post for the night.

 

[Deborah K]

There's plenty of an-cap forums, but talking to a bunch of people who agree with you doesn't help you learn, or spread the message.

Brow beating people is not an effective way to spread the message. Not saying that you do that, Clay. But others on here do it regularly.

Yes, it does. Getting the constitution to actually do the job that it never did, is a fantasy.

Wholeheartedly disagree. If our Constitution was such a failure then why have people clamored to live here from all over the world since its inception?

Utopia's don't exist, and will never exist

Interesting, since anarchists believe that no laws and free markets are end-all-be-all.

 

[Political Terror]

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

According to this poll the majority of posters on this forum believe that when you are born within a certain "border" you automatically become the property of whomever controls that region/country/state ?

 

[Fredom101]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

Most of the voluntaryists on the board I know are very polite and do not engage in personal or ad hominem attacks. Why don't we just stick to the topic instead of making mass generalizations about a group here?

 

[dannno]

Still waiting for your evidence that our country can handle 3 billion people.

According to the NRI, 5 percent (108.1 million acres) of U.S. land area was considered developed1 as of 2003 (Exhibit 4-5)

http://cfpub.epa.gov/eroe/index.cfm...ewInd&lv=list.listByAlpha&r=188236&subtop=225


Current US population:

307,006,550


Estimated US Population with 100% land developed:

6,140,131,000

 

[Fredom101]

Wholeheartedly disagree. If our Constitution was such a failure then why have people clamored to live here from all over the world since its inception?

How does the fact that people want to come here (which is declining every year) prove that the constitution was a success?

The constitution was designed to limit government, correct?
The U.S. now has the largest government in the history of the world.
How is that anything but a massive failure?

 

[specsaregood]

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

According to this poll the majority of posters on this forum believe that when you are born within a certain "border" you automatically become the property of whomever controls that region/country/state ?

You understand it incorrectly. Have you ever read Dr. Paul's positions on the subject?

 

[FrankRep]

The constitution was designed to limit government, correct?
The U.S. now has the largest government in the history of the world.
How is that anything but a massive failure?

conspiracy.

YouTube - Council on Foreign Relations

 

[charrob]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

note taken. -they argue penalizing employers to be violent; what they forget is that by not penalizing those employers, huge numbers continue to illegally immigrate which steals resources from everyone else (taxes for schools, hospitals, etc.) who play by the rules. This can also be considered "violent".

 

[low preference guy]

note taken. -they argue penalizing employers to be violent; what they forget is that by not penalizing those employers, huge numbers continue to illegally immigrate which steals resources from everyone else (taxes for schools, hospitals, etc.) who play by the rules. This can also be considered "violent".

they only steal resources if they're given welfare. so to solve the problem you need to get rid of the welfare state, unemployment benefits.

 

[Political Terror]

You understand it incorrectly. Have you ever read Dr. Paul's positions on the subject?

Thank you for answering my question with a question

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

note taken. -they argue penalizing employers to be violent; what they forget is that by not penalizing those employers, huge numbers continue to illegally immigrate which steals resources from everyone else (taxes for schools, hospitals, etc.) who play by the rules. This can also be considered "violent".

You must really hate me and others who openly defy State edicts vis a vis taxation, regulation, etc.

Those damn Milk farmers who refuse to pastuerize their milk! Those damn tax-evaders -- Irwin Schiff, Ed & Elaine Brown, etc.!

Those damn agorists, and others who don't use FRN's. Lock em all up. They are criminals! They are defying the LAW!

Seriously do you ever think through your positions? Anyone who advocates strict adherence to the law is anti-American! Don't you know the US was built on criminals and traitors. We must rejoin the crown.