Ron Paul on Bitcoin: "If I can't put it in my pocket, I have reservations" (other topix 2)

[PaulConventionWV]

Odd that he says 6000 years, which is the same age that young earth creationists believe is the age of the earth. Hmm... but I'm opening a can of worms on that one.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Bitcoin just doesn't pass the smell tests. Why I don't trust it: It was created by humans out of thin air and has existed for not even 5 years. Its value is not stable at all. People seem to be more interested in speculation then its use as a currency. It has 0 intrinsic value. There is no utility in a bitcoin by itself. The history of gold/silver started out as barter based on utility in of itself and transformed into a currency as people recognized the great money properties they possessed. Bitcoin just bypassed that all "as people just accepted it because..". Bitcoin is also extremely susceptible to political risk. If a major government starts seeing that it can be utilized to bypass taxes/etc, there is a huge probability that it will be declared illegal.

Lastly, If someone gave you the choice of receiving $ 1,000,000 k today or 65000 bitcoins in 20 years(today they would be valued at 10 million dollars), I am guessing that 99% of bitcoin supporters would take the cash now! Why? Because they know that bitcoin has a huge probability of ending up like the beanie baby/tulip. If you know in your heart it has little chance of carrying any value in the future, you should be very wary.

I would take the cash today because 20 years is a long time to go being poor. If you offered me the bitcoin in 5 years, I think I would take that.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Competing currencies are always a good thing. IF the BTC can survive these pump and dump days intact then it will be a genuine competing currency. How to prevent a complete internet shutdown from rendering it useless and how to prevent the FRN moneyed interests from taking it over early and killing it are the keys to it surviving. The internet needs to be reinvented for an online currency to be viable long term imho. The net is too vulnerable now. Completely P2P needs to be setup before BTC is a viable competing currency. Unfortunately the best software minds work for the biggest offenders to this sort of project right now. They're designing more "clouds" instead of P2P networks. Money talks.

But hey what do I know. Im computer illiterate.

I view someone as computer illiterate if they don't know how to use the internet, and if you're using the word "clouds" as a technological term, it doesn't give the impression that you're computer illiterate.

 

[bbjaylive]

At heart, Ron Paul knows nexts to nothing about money. This is a pre-historic view of money, which would kind of be inaccurate to say as primitive societies used credit systems instead of barter. The story of barter as the beginning of money/trade is a complete invention. He still thinks of money as a bunch of gold coins jangling in your pocket. That is insane.

 

[amy31416]

At heart, Ron Paul knows nexts to nothing about money. This is a pre-historic view of money, which would kind of be inaccurate to say as primitive societies used credit systems instead of barter. The story of barter as the beginning of money/trade is a complete invention. He still thinks of money as a bunch of gold coins jangling in your pocket. That is insane.

Perhaps you might want to read a book or at least an article where Ron Paul discusses money in-depth.

That said--bitcoin does have value to people who do international business, people who want to stay out of the traditional banking system, non-traditional lending, etc. There's some pretty big-time financial folks involved that a few people here have likely heard of. I'm not going to argue with anyone about it though, it's not like anyone is forced to use it.

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

There is no utility in a bitcoin by itself.

Not true. Bitcoin is 2 things:
1) cloud based/distributed ledger (a store of value)
2) payment method (can send payments directly worldwide to anyone else with bitcoin)

Its utility as a pseudonymous payment method is what helped give it value initially (silk road) and is why it meets the Misesian regression theorem for free market money.

 

[Jordan]

A more important point is being missed here: BTC is still much too complicated to draw a wide audience. PayPal takes 10 minutes to understand. Bitcoin takes hours.

 

[dannno]

He has a definition of money, and it doesn't satisfy it. You can disagree that his definition of money is the ONLY possible definition of money, but he stated his opinion based on that definition.

He has a good definition of money - does he have a good definition of bitcoin in order that he can truly know whether it satisfied his test? That's what I'm asking, I'm not questioning his definition of money, I'm questioning his definition of bitcoin.

 

[dannno]

A more important point is being missed here: BTC is still much too complicated to draw a wide audience. PayPal takes 10 minutes to understand. Bitcoin takes hours.

PayPal considering implementing bitcoin:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...er-Bitcoin-very-positive-response-(Bloomberg)


Again, the currency is finalized but the products which coordinate transactions are still in development. It will become much easier to use over time.

Those of us who understand and can use it now will benefit as it becomes easier to use - and we should - because WE are the ones funding and investing in those very services currently.

 

[IDefendThePlatform]

A more important point is being missed here: BTC is still much too complicated to draw a wide audience. PayPal takes 10 minutes to understand. Bitcoin takes hours.

I agree but that will/is being resolved with time. When the Internet first started you had to know all about hooking up modems and chat relay and whatnot to use it. Now it's a trillion dollar+ enterprise.

Example: coinbase.com has some flaws but it lets you hook up a bank account and buy bitcoins just as easily as you could hook up a bank account to PayPal. And Bitinstant.com is making integrating bitcoins extremely simple for businesses now too.

Once this barrier is crossed bitcoin's major advantages in low cost and high privacy will help it expand greatly, IMO.

We are still very early in the adoption curve and it seems like a winning bet to me.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

A more important point is being missed here: BTC is still much too complicated to draw a wide audience. PayPal takes 10 minutes to understand. Bitcoin takes hours.

Not really. I think it's pretty simple. You might be referring to buying it, which really isn't that bad, but that's the worst part. Buying stuff with it is easy, and understanding what it is is also easy.

 

[muh_roads]

A more important point is being missed here: BTC is still much too complicated to draw a wide audience. PayPal takes 10 minutes to understand. Bitcoin takes hours.

That will change soon. Rome wasn't build in a day. Services run by more competent businesses are coming.

Think of BTC as Project Mayhem. It will naturally accomplish its goals in a peaceful way. It will take time.

 

[psi2941]

Hey, just wanted to let you guys know about my website, Bitmunitions.com -- Where you can take those "fake Bitcoins" and turn them into cold, hard ammunition that you can most definitely put in your pocket .. or better yet, your rifle!

Thanks guys!
Craig

Craig from 1stclassfirearms?

 

[psi2941]

Ron has written at least one book on this subject, a ton of papers and joint authored a minority report on the Gold Commission, and has a definition of money bitcoin doesn't satisfy. People who see it as preferable to FRN for whatever reason, and want to use it are welcome to do so.

I agree, people can use bitcoins for all they want, i just don't want them to pump bitcoins on ronpaul forums under "sound money"

 

[FSP-Rebel]

I agree, people can use bitcoins for all they want, i just don't want them to pump bitcoins on ronpaul forums under "sound money"

In addition to sound money, Ron also talked about alternative and competing currencies as a way to brush off the central bankers. So, growing BTC and making it viable is another way to ditch the banksters. Discussing and posting articles on BTC is a way to help the curious understand things better when there's a sea of negativity being spread about the topic at hand. Perhaps the subforum's name isn't the catchall it could be if it was tweeked.

 

[Petar]

I agree, people can use bitcoins for all they want, i just don't want them to pump bitcoins on ronpaul forums under "sound money"

Who are you to say that BTC is not sound money? All of your arguments are shallow and stupid.

 

[newbitech]

He's saying bitcoin is based on computers being able to run software so he doesn't trust it. This is legitimate reservation to have, and I carry the same reservations. Computer technology has not withstood the test of time. In its relatively short existence, it has seen erratic changes in pricing mechanisms, very often is throw away after a few years, is fragile, relies on non renewable sources of energy to maintain its growth, etc etc..

Now the question really becomes, does bitcoin need to be based on computer technology?

Bitcoin is doing a whole bunch of math calcs. Bitcoin is self governing. Bitcoin is global near instant communications. These are the reasons bitcoin relies on computer technology.

I think we can handle the math part, since the calculations don't have to be difficult for bitcoin to work, only an exponential function to the increasing difficulty on a time scale. The part that we can't handle without computers is self governing and global near instant global communication.

Self governing is what gives bitcoin its limit and is the defining feature.
near instant global communication is what makes bitcoin a superior alternative to cash which requires physical OR third, fourth, fifth, nth, party clearing.

So, how does gold deal with those two challenges?

Gold is naturally scarce on the planet. So it's naturally limited.

Gold is terrible at near instant global communication, and because of this you have gold paper exchanges to facilitate those exchanges, which in turn erodes the naturally scarce quality of physical gold in terms of valuation and the ability to be used as sound currency.

The physical nature of gold is really what has been an Achilles heal for the currency since day 1 and is probably the reason why it's value vs the fiat paper is constantly suppressed.

What make it the gold standard is that gold has withstood the test of time. Bitcoin has many advantages over gold at this current juncture in time. However, we know that gold can and will survive the collapse of civilization and will likely be the median of exchange that builds it back up again.

Bitcoin cannot touch gold in that respect on the very nature of what bitcoin currently is.

The solution is not simple. There will always need to be some "token" to represent value and labor. In the past, that token wasn't always physical, but it was always backed by something physical.

Even today, I could give a man my word, and he give me his and we would have a better system of exchange than all of the above.

 

[amonasro]

One reservation I have with gold is that it can be counterfeited, therefore manipulated and stolen. And depending on how thick your tinfoil hat is, it already has been to a huge degree.

Bitcoin solves this problem through the blockchain (a huge, identical transaction database shared by all miners) that prevents double-spending of the same coins. Each transaction is tied to the last, so spending the same bitcoin twice (a counterfeiter's wet dream) would require one to hack not only the transaction in question, but every subsequent transaction as well. Good luck with that.

 

[psi2941]

Who are you to say that BTC is not sound money? All of your arguments are shallow and stupid.

Its not sound money, Ron Paul just said why its not sound money. Are you sure i'm the shallow/ stupid one?

Again, the average bitcoin user, can't make valid points therefor insult the guy so you can win, good job!

 

[Petar]

Its not sound money, Ron Paul just said why its not sound money. Are you sure i'm the shallow/ stupid one?

Again, the average bitcoin user, can't make valid points therefor insult the guy so you can win, good job!

Nice shallow appear to authority.

Money is whatever people decide to use as money, not just the things that fit into your narrow, dogmatic criteria.

And as far as "sound" money characteristics go, Bitcoin far surpasses gold in certain ways.

Gold sits in a vault, bankers create non-allocated paper markets for it, fractional lending is born, history repeats itself, and eventually we end up with centrally dictated fiat bullshit all over again.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, cannot exist in a "non-allocated" format.

Face it, it's a quantum leep in monetary technology.