Ron Paul is very clear. He is NOT an Anarcho-Capitalist

Ah... what is the true word of GOD! Soon we will have the Paul Catholics, the Paul Lutherans the Paul Baptists and a thousand other Paul etc sects all claiming they know the heart and word of Paul:rolleyes: Indeed.passages from the Book that raises high and fiery debate, it is now minute markers from Youtube videos of the deity that the sects of paul choose to vent their engorged spleens.

lulz :D
 
Ah... what is the true word of GOD! Soon we will have the Paul Catholics, the Paul Lutherans the Paul Baptists and a thousand other Paul etc sects all claiming they know the heart and word of Paul:rolleyes: Indeed.passages from the Book that raises high and fiery debate, it is now minute markers from Youtube videos of the deity that the sects of paul choose to vent their engorged spleens.

LOL true but it's not like it's a new thing here.

Person A presents an opinion or principle of their own.

Person B responds with how Ron Paul has contradicted that statement.

Good for him, but Person A should not fear arguing for why Ron is wrong.
 
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If your assumption is correct - that his "problem" with statelessness is that "people are not perfect" - then I must say I'm as mystified by his problem as I am by these numerous "others", presumably here at this website. How could it possibly be that literate people who regular this website could ever imagine that the sort of statelessness that is espoused by several of us here should in any way require the existence of perfect people!? IN FACT, it is quite the opposite! For a just state to exist requires the existence of perfect people - people who are capable of behaving absent of aberration over a lifetime without the bias of self-interest. Since, as you rightly say, people are not perfect, it necessarily follows that a just state cannot exist. And therefore, logically, a person seeking the just order of society cannot advocate the existence of the state.

Did ye listen to the video in the OP (at 18:00 + ) and hear what he was referring to? It had to do with him not going through all of the scenarios (in his mind) as to how a private police force could be more just than the one we have, etc... (Better to listen to him say it himself in the video).
 
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Ah... what is the true word of GOD! Soon we will have the Paul Catholics, the Paul Lutherans the Paul Baptists and a thousand other Paul etc sects all claiming they know the heart and word of Paul:rolleyes: Indeed.passages from the Book that raises high and fiery debate, it is now minute markers from Youtube videos of the deity that the sects of paul choose to vent their engorged spleens.

Yeah, John the Baptist is a Biblical figure. There aren't any Lutherans or Papists in the Bible. Debate over;)


LOL true but it's not like it's a new thing here.

Person A presents an opinion or principle of their own.

Person B responds with how Ron Paul has contradicted that statement.

Good for him, but Person A should not fear arguing for why Ron is wrong.
 
If your assumption is correct - that his "problem" with statelessness is that "people are not perfect" - then I must say I'm as mystified by his problem as I am by these numerous "others", presumably here at this website. How could it possibly be that literate people who regular this website could ever imagine that the sort of statelessness that is espoused by several of us here should in any way require the existence of perfect people!? IN FACT, it is quite the opposite! For a just state to exist requires the existence of perfect people - people who are capable of behaving absent of aberration over a lifetime without the bias of self-interest. Since, as you rightly say, people are not perfect, it necessarily follows that a just state cannot exist. And therefore, logically, a person seeking the just order of society cannot advocate the existence of the state.

See, the thing is, it's difficult for most people to imagine things that they haven't seen even though in theory they seem perfectly reasonable (for example, socialists who can't seem to be able to believe in the power of free markets to alleviate poverty). So your points are absolutely valid but even I, who does agree with them, can't bear to think of how anarcho-capitalism will be able sustain itself for long. May be thousands of years from now, at a point when human species has evolved a lot more? May be. But in the near future? Unlikely!
Now, I think Ron's contention is rather weak in the light of things you have brought up & certainly it is mystifying that he thinks this way after so many years of being in the "libertarian" circles.

On the other hand, I personally, like Ron, can't bring myself up to the question of sustainability of AC for the fact that even if some of us are able form an "enclave" somewhere, it won't make all the rest of the communists/socialists to vanish from the world, the whole world won't stop thinking in terms of "countries" & they mayn't stop supporting coercive governance & they will find reasons to attack us & at that point, each AC can't be "on his own", they must present a united defense against the attackers if they want to have any chance against mega-governments with tons of their loot to squander on wars. So I think a voluntarily funded "co-operative government" (if you will) would make more sense & may be that's something that Ron Paul has in his mind too when he talks about "voluntary society" & being a "voluntarist". I wish someone would ask his opinion about this, I think he'll prefer that over AC or coercive minarchy.

The point being that if AC doesn't seem realistic enough to people like Ron & myself & many others, who do agree with so much of the "libertarian" theory then think about how much harder it would be to bring others to AC & how many years it would take. As I've said, it's difficult for people to imagine things that they haven't seen so may be if people (those are already "libertarian" & those we want to convert) are approached with a view of voluntary governance then may be a lot more them might open themselves up to completely leaving behind the current coercive form of government.
 
See, the thing is, it's difficult for most people to imagine things that they haven't seen even though in theory they seem perfectly reasonable (for example, socialists who can't seem to be able to believe in the power of free markets to alleviate poverty). So your points are absolutely valid but even I, who does agree with them, can't bear to think of how anarcho-capitalism will be able sustain itself for long. May be thousands of years from now, at a point when human species has evolved a lot more? May be. But in the near future? Unlikely!

I'm not a "button-pusher" anarchist. I don't believe, as Rothbard did, that society would be better off right now, without the state; not because I think that the state has something to offer, or that humanity hasn't "evolved" sufficiently to exist without a temporal overseer. I believe that the state has ruined human beings, and if suddenly ceased to exist, these ruined human beings would behave much like the children in The Lord of the Flies. The state has effectively devolved human beings into animals... children, at best - dependent, fearful, petulant, spoiled, shameless children.

I have long held that the best efforts of the liberty movement should be toward educating people about the truth of human existence.

Now, I think Ron's contention is rather weak in the light of things you have brought up & certainly it is mystifying that he thinks this way after so many years of being in the "libertarian" circles.

On the other hand, I personally, like Ron, can't bring myself up to the question of sustainability of AC for the fact that even if some of us are able form an "enclave" somewhere, it won't make all the rest of the communists/socialists to vanish from the world, the whole world won't stop thinking in terms of "countries" & they mayn't stop supporting coercive governance & they will find reasons to attack us & at that point, each AC can't be "on his own", they must present a united defense against the attackers if they want to have any chance against mega-governments with tons of their loot to squander on wars. So I think a voluntarily funded "co-operative government" (if you will) would make more sense & may be that's something that Ron Paul has in his mind too when he talks about "voluntary society" & being a "voluntarist". I wish someone would ask his opinion about this, I think he'll prefer that over AC or coercive minarchy.

The point being that if AC doesn't seem realistic enough to people like Ron & myself & many others, who do agree with so much of the "libertarian" theory then think about how much harder it would be to bring others to AC & how many years it would take. As I've said, it's difficult for people to imagine things that they haven't seen so may be if people (those are already "libertarian" & those we want to convert) are approached with a view of voluntary governance then may be a lot more them might open themselves up to completely leaving behind the current coercive form of government.

Whether or not a stateless society would be trampled under the hooves of a rampaging statist society does not address the underlying question of how a just society is organized. This also happens to be the same argument the socialists use - fear: "sure, a limited government would be great, but who will provide for the children, the infirm, the elderly??" Logic and reason are not rooted in fear. Indeed, fear overthrows logic and reason.

To advocate succumbing to the state because we are afraid that another state will come along and destroy us is essentially to advocate for the total state. Once the principle has been ceded, the argument is fundamentally lost.

Keynes was right about one thing, in the long run we are all dead. There's nothing the state nor anyone else can do to prevent that. I'll ask you to forgive me for borrowing a line from a Mel Gibson movie, but it is pertinent: "Every man dies; not every man truly lives".
 
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I'm not a "button-pusher" anarchist. I don't believe, as Rothbard did, that society would be better off right now, without the state; not because I think that the state has something to offer, or that humanity hasn't "evolved" sufficiently to exist without a temporal overseer. I believe that the state has ruined human beings, and if suddenly ceased to exist, these ruined human beings would behave much like the children in The Lord of the Flies. The state has effectively devolved human beings into animals... children, at best - dependent, fearful, petulant, spoiled, shameless children.

Yes, you are right, people become used to certain systems & then they can't think of how things would be without those systems.......look at religion, I'm sure the original agnostics/atheists must have faced a similar challenge.....& we can say, we have come some way in that department so may be we can definitely expect something similar........

I have long held that the best efforts of the liberty movement should be toward educating people about the truth of human existence.

Nothing wrong with educating but I have my doubts about relying on masses to change power-structures.......but that's a different topic.

Nonetheless, what's the point of educating if even the "educated" like Ron & myself, who completely agree with theoretical underpinnings of AC, can't jump over that final valley? What I'm saying is that there will have to be a "bridge", a temporary measure, without which all the educating will be pointless anyway!

Whether or not a stateless society would be trampled under the hooves of a rampaging statist society does not address the underlying question of how a just society is organized. This also happens to be the same argument the socialists use - fear: "sure, a limited government would be great, but who will provide for the children, the infirm, the elderly??" Logic and reason are not rooted in fear. Indeed, fear overthrows logic and reason.

To advocate succumbing to the state because we are afraid that another state will come along and destroy us is essentially to advocate for the total state. Once the principle has been ceded, the argument is fundamentally lost.

I think you didn't read my post carefully. I'm not advocating "succumbing to the State" at all. A voluntarily funded body with no coercive powers wouldn't be a "state" in the sense many here hate & I'm not suggesting it as a "forever solution" but a transient measure until humanity does evolve to the point where most people in the world accept that a government isn't necessary for sustenance of law & order.
I can somewhat understand ACs unwillingness to support coercive minarchy (as in Constitutionalism) but I don't see the point of opposing NON-coercive minarchy where nobody is forced to pay or follow arbitrary rules.

Again, as I've said, if you can't get someone like Ron Paul to jump that final hurdle then what do you expect to achieve by educating the masses? There will have to be a transition period which will give people, who have gotten used to the idea of government, otherwise they won't jump; I'm just proposing what might be the best option available - a voluntary non-coercive government.
 
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Nonetheless, what's the point of educating if even the "educated" like Ron & myself, who completely agree with theoretical underpinnings of AC, can't jump over that final valley? What I'm saying is that there will have to be a "bridge", a temporary measure, without which all the educating will be pointless anyway!

Not going to respond to everything, just wanted to jump in and comment on this.

The [perhaps unfortunate] truth is, people like yourself and Ron don't need to necessarily jump over that final valley, which is to say whether you or Ron make that jump is largely irrelevant beyond its significance to and impact on your own individual lives, and worldview.

Most anarchist types tend to accept the fact that ending the State isn't going to happen over night. But many anarchist types also tend to accept that ending the State isn't going to be done through legislation or the State's political system either. The point of focusing on education is to instill in people a set of core principles--self-ownership, property rights, NAP--which, when followed to their logically consistent end, can only lead to one conclusion, that they may pass these values down to their children, and families, and so on. Ending the State tomorrow would, in all likelihood, lead to widespread panic, chaos, and destruction that is all entirely detrimental and counterproductive because the culture, and even many within the so-called 'liberty movement,' are still dependent on and faithful to statism. So the point of education is to shatter those illusions, and highlight how erroneous they've always been, and will always continue to be so that perhaps in the future, our children, or grandchildren, or great grandchildren will be able to enjoy a relatively peaceful society. The alternative is continuing to put faith, time, energy, effort, and dollars into statism, and perpetuate the pointless parasitic cycle while reaffirming that statism is the sole solution to society's problems and height of human civilization in the same breath.

So, you don't have to make that leap if you aren't prepared to; but if you're not making the leap because you can't answer every single question or issue that you might be able to imagine, then that's going to continue to be an impossible leap to make. I think, once you recognize and accept that you, nor anyone else, will ever have all the answers, or will ever have the perfect solution to all possible, potential, hypothetical, and theoretical problems that leap becomes more of a hop. But, if you're still not prepared to make that hop, as a necessary consequence, you should then be prepared to accept that you are setting an example that promotes statism to those you may influence, whether you want to be promoting statism or not. And the more people that promote statism there are, the longer it will take for the culture to ultimately evolve away from statism.

Now, if you truly believe in statism, that's one thing. But if you know it's not right, then I would suggest it is your moral duty to oppose it, not promote it. You mention that sustainability is a problem for you, but the truth is we will never know until we try, will we? On the other hand, we, as a species, have tried statism ad nauseam, haven't we? What State has ever proven itself to be sustainable? Statism is historically and demonstrably unsustainable, and as an added bonus tends to leave a swath of death and destruction in its wake.
 
The point of focusing on education is to instill in people a set of core principles--self-ownership, property rights, NAP--which, when followed to their logically consistent end, can only lead to one conclusion, that they may pass these values down to their children, and families, and so on.

Did you even read? If someone like Ron Paul (& many like him) who DO accept the core principles & theoretical validity of the AC position & STILL can't make the leap then it seems likely that many you'd be "educating" could turn out like that & even they mightn't be able to make that leap. In which case, what's the point of just educating? It could be a waste of time for you anyway if you aren't willing to agree on a transition.

if you're not making the leap because you can't answer every single question or issue that you might be able to imagine, then that's going to continue to be an impossible leap to make.

Well, that means you probably don't need to bother educating like more than 99% of the people because most people don't like uncertainty, one of the reasons why government is such a popular choice........

if you're still not prepared to make that hop, as a necessary consequence, you should then be prepared to accept that you are setting an example that promotes statism to those you may influence, whether you want to be promoting statism or not.

It could also be argued that if ACs aren't willing to agree on a "bridge" for a transition then they are promoting statism........

Now, if you truly believe in statism,

You should really re-read my post (if you wish) & what I'm actually saying rather than just typing stuff after just seeing the word "government".
 
Did you even read?

Yes, that must be it. I didn't read. But no, you're totally right. What's the point of education? What the point of thinking? What the point of learning? What's the point of knowledge?

I'm kinda sorry I did read at this point. Waste of time.
 
Yes, you are right, people become used to certain systems & then they can't think of how things would be without those systems...

No, people do not become "used" to "certain systems". They are actively taught that there is no civil society without those "systems". They are actively taught that a lack of 'leaders' (anarchism) is "chaos". They are actively taught that the state is not only essential, but all civilization collapses in its absence. They are trained to be dependent upon the state. They grow up and develop in an unnatural, inhuman environment, and become something less than human.

It's not a passive thing. People don't just happen to become what they are coincidentally because of the state. The state devolves human beings.

Nothing wrong with educating but I have my doubts about relying on masses to change power-structures.......but that's a different topic.

No it's not a different topic. "The masses" rejecting the state is THE ONLY way forward. Seizing control of the state and directing it to your bidding is a fool's errand, and is inevitably a path to destruction.

Nonetheless, what's the point of educating if even the "educated" like Ron & myself, who completely agree with theoretical underpinnings of AC, can't jump over that final valley?

So? Plenty more have cleared that final hurdle, such as myself and countless others. Just because you can't or haven't yet made the fairly simple, logical conclusions doesn't mean that so many more cannot. And ultimately, as I said before, I have no interest in the application of force. I am interested in living my life in accordance with logical and moral principles. I will sow as many seeds as I can, and God-willing, they will bear fruit.

What I'm saying is that there will have to be a "bridge", a temporary measure, without which all the educating will be pointless anyway!

I've in the past used the analogy of a train making stops on the route to liberty. I believe my "stop" is true human liberty. I also believe that your limited government state is on that route, albeit short of the final destination. I'm altogether fine with a "bridge", or a temporary measure... but you will not catch me advocating on behalf of even limited coercive and physical violence. It's just not in my makeup.

I think you didn't read my post carefully. I'm not advocating "succumbing to the State" at all. A voluntarily funded body with no coercive powers wouldn't be a "state" in the sense many here hate & I'm not suggesting it as a "forever solution" but a transient measure until humanity does evolve to the point where most people in the world accept that a government isn't necessary for sustenance of law & order.
I can somewhat understand ACs unwillingness to support coercive minarchy (as in Constitutionalism) but I don't see the point of opposing NON-coercive minarchy where nobody is forced to pay or follow arbitrary rules.

Again, as I've said, if you can't get someone like Ron Paul to jump that final hurdle then what do you expect to achieve by educating the masses? There will have to be a transition period which will give people, who have gotten used to the idea of government, otherwise they won't jump; I'm just proposing what might be the best option available - a voluntary non-coercive government.

I don't know why I have to hold you and Ron as the standard of what can and cannot be achieved through education. I learned quite quickly, in the most hyper-statist environment of my lifetime, that the state is a fallacy. In fact, I went from a "centrist" to an "anarchist" in a matter of a few short years. Just because you and Ron seemingly can't, doesn't mean that others won't.

Also, a "voluntary, non-coercive government" isn't at all something I'd argue against... because it is not the state. We have no problem with government. It is the State which we oppose, with vigor.
 
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Also, a "voluntary, non-coercive government" isn't at all something I'd argue against... because it is not the state. We have no problem with government. It is the State which we oppose, with vigor.

Well then, I guess we have reached some common ground!
Even though it's not the "state", it will still provide people with some mental comfort who are uncomfortable with AC (like Ron Paul) & ACs themselves don't have to compromise their principles either. So while "educating", don't you think presenting such an option to people would convert more people towards fully accepting non-coercion & leaving behind coercive forms of government?
 
I believe that the Duty and authority of law enforcement is in the hands of all men (and women) and that society can function without State enforcers.

I never considered Ron an Anarchist,, but to some he may appear that way.
so instead of some people enforcing laws, you want ALL people doing it?
 
Of course.

sounds like a world where people can't delegate responsibilities and must constantly watch their backs because they can't trust a certain party to take care of a task they're best at.
 
LOL, sort of like the nosy busybody who calls the police when they think their neighbor is doing something illegal? They think they are helping enforce the laws.
even better, he won't need to call anybody because he has the right and responsibility to take care of things himself!
 
even better, he won't need to call anybody because he has the right and responsibility to take care of things himself!
Yeah, he can kidnap the person and take them to ehhhh.... jail so they can await a trial?
 
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