Ron Paul Ideas: Utopia vs Reality.

RonpaulSupporter7777 said:
Hi.

First off, I started this thread in hopes that an open and intelligent dialogue between the supporters of Ron Paul's political philosophy could be born. While I am an ardent supporter of Conservative Libertarian values, especially in regards to foreign policy measures, I am not at all convinced that our society will greatly benifit from hard-line "Milton Friedman" stlye economics.

Now I do realize that Ron Paul is more of a Ludwig Von Mises, Austrian school of economics type of guy. I am not out to criticize Conservative Libertarian economic philosophies, but only to examine the potential consequences these particular ideologies could have in regards to the Liberty Movement that is alive and well in America.

Could we as a movement be blinding ourselves by only seeing through the lense of theoretical utopia rather than experience and reality? What about the potential consequences that leftist utopian movements have been plagued with such as communism and socialism.

Could this Ron Paul inspired American Revolution really be the root of all reform or simply another enthusiastic idea whose time will bring us some good, but also lots of the bad?

Certain aspects of this movement rest on the assumption that democracy is a constantly moving entity that must be upheld and defended by a largely apathetic/distracted American people; just as socialism is reliant on a government with strict checks and balances carried out by a majority of corrupted politicians/beauracrats.

My main point is that sometimes a great idea is worth fighting for, but when enacted it could potentially lead to another set of disasters. How are we so sure that deregulated markets in the American Economy will not lead to corruption and further consolidation of wealth among the already rich elitists of this world?

Maybe Economics is just as alive and changing as a democratic republic? If so, we will have to be on gaurd to potential pitfalls of Conservative Libertarian Economic Policies. We may even have to let the government step in to regulate in certain situations. If we hold true to a dogmatic belief of "infallibility" within our economic outlook and blame everything but our own belief system we will be just as doomed as communism and socialism.
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whats up with all the guys with under 100 post counts suddenly rushing to the board and infusing collectivist or statist ideas?
 
Teenforpaul08 said:
Anyone else think that free-market is superior to superior to a resource-based economy?

PROVE IT.
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The free market IS a resource-based economy, as I've already explained.* You're arguing from such a false premise that you're "not even wrong." (Look that phrase up.)

*By the true definition of what "resource-based" means. The Venus Project seeks to reinvent the term "resource-based" and give it a new definition that is entirely paradoxical and nonsensical. This new definition defies reality as it applies to resources, because it ignores the most obvious, universal, and perpetual truth of all economic theory: Finite resources, or in other words, "scarcity."
 
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GOP (RP forum members): damn that ron paul. He caused us so much disruption and so much time. I wish he was just banned from all the debates.


Ron paul (me)l: hehe, I'm getting to them. I know it.

:D


This is how I feel right now.
 
Okay, I admit, I stopped reading at like page 12. So, apologies if this was asked already.

Teenforpaul08, if the free market is so beneficial to the 'elite,' why do 'they' put so much effort into killing it? And why didn't 'they' work hard to make Ron Paul the President instead of two very anti-free market candidates? Thanks.
 
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Unlike you, Ron Paul did not intend to cause a disruption due to him being a childish asshole. Ron Paul intended to disrupt a longstanding charade that tries to pass itself off year after year as an honest and open election between intelligent, well-meaning candidates, when it's really just a popularity contest between establishment shills vying to be our next master.

You refuse to seriously address every reasoned argument that every other member has offered you...that sounds very much unlike Ron Paul to me.
 
RonPaulR3VOLUTION said:
Okay, I admit, I stopped reading at like page 12. So, apologies if this was asked already.

Teenforpaul08, if the free market is so beneficial to the 'elite,' why do 'they' put so much effort into killing it? And why didn't 'they' work hard to make Ron Paul the President instead of two very anti-free market candidates? Thanks.
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This is a very good point. I actually just brought it up in another argument recently, and I've never once seen anybody come up with a coherent rebuttal for this point that does not entirely ignore the media's success at propagandizing people to believe whatever the establishment wants them to believe.
 
RonPaulR3VOLUTION said:
Okay, I admit, I stopped reading at like page 12. So, apologies if this was asked already.

Teenforpaul08, if the free market is so beneficial to the 'elite,' why do 'they' put so much effort into killing it? And why didn't 'they' work hard to make Ron Paul the President instead of two very anti-free market candidates? Thanks.
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What Ron Paul seeks to do is get of things that are unconstitutional.

Elites have built their way up to this point because it benefits them even more than the free markets.

Essentially, voting in ron paul would make some of them start over. Simple as that.

They are not killing the free market, they are changing its rules to meet their needs better. The free market is good for them, just not good enough for them so they make regulations to make it better for them, so they can keep their "competitve edge."

Profit is an addiction to companies, the more you get, the more you want.
 
Teenforpaul08 said:
What Ron Paul seeks to do is get of things that are unconstitutional.

Elites have built their way up to this point because it benefits them even more than the free markets.

Essentially, voting in ron paul would make some of them start over. Simple as that.

They are not killing the free market, they are changing its rules to meet their needs better. The free market is good for them, just not good enough for them so they make regulations to make it better for them, so they can keep their "competitve edge."

Profit is an addiction to companies, the more you get, the more you want.
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Ron Paul does indeed seek to get rid of things that are unconstitutional, and that includes federal intervention in the market. The government can "regulate interstate commerce," i.e. it can prevent trade wars between states, but it is not authorized to arbitrarily regulate, and stretching its power here is what has undermined our market and made it corporatist-fascist, rather than free. Ultimately, once limited government and the rule of law is restored, we'll have to add "teeth" to the Constitution to make it more easily enforceable to prevent today's situation from occurring again. (There have been threads where we've talked about possible new checks, even some that can come directly from the people.)

In any case, back up your arguments with something of substance. The truth is, under a true free market where coercion is not permitted, it doesn't matter how greedy companies get, because their power is limited by what everyone else wants and whether people are willing to voluntarily do business with them. In a real free market, supply and demand keep the power balance oscillating near equilibrium. If you want a longer post detailing why, look back through my posts where I gave links to more in-depth explanations.
 
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Teenforpaul08 said:
So is there anyone else that thinks a Free Market system trumps a resource-based economy?

Link
http://www.thevenusproject.com/
http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm
http://www.thevenusproject.com/resource_eco.htm
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The free market IS a resource-based economy, as I've already explained.* You're arguing from such a false premise that you're "not even wrong." (Look that phrase up.)

*By the true definition of what "resource-based" means. The Venus Project seeks to reinvent the term "resource-based" and give it a new definition that is entirely paradoxical and nonsensical. This new definition defies reality as it applies to resources, because it ignores the most obvious, universal, and perpetual truth of all economic theory: Finite resources, or in other words, "scarcity."
 
Mini-Me said:
Yeah, because your arguments were just soooo convincing. :rolleyes:
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Listen. I don't debate with someone who, before seeing my post, already thinks in his/her mind "he's going to be wrong, I'm always right" "He socialism, he communism" "Free market is perfect."

It's counter-productive and gets no where. Sorry.
 
Lovely thought out question OP. When you get collectivism you get problems. It comes down to lack of individuality basically. We either have individualism or conformity when really what you need is neither. What you need is true individuality. Unfortunately most human beings do not have a clue how to master their own minds. We are just a bundle of automated habits (usually bad ones) loosely tied together with a name and address.

In as much as human beings manifest variations of greed hatred and ignorance, we will always find ourselves in pickles. Reform needs to go hand in hand with self control and even self mastery.
We are decadent, impulsive, spoilt and often vicious as a species.
 
raiha said:
Lovely thought out question OP. When you get collectivism you get problems. It comes down to lack of individuality basically. We either have individualism or conformity when really what you need is neither. What you need is true individuality. Unfortunately most human beings do not have a clue how to master their own minds. We are just a bundle of automated habits (usually bad ones) loosely tied together with a name and address.

In as much as human beings manifest variations of greed hatred and ignorance, we will always find ourselves in pickles. Reform needs to go hand in hand with self control and even self mastery.
We are decadent, impulsive, spoilt and often vicious as a species.
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When then you would welcome the venus project because, with this concept, human beings will achieve the most self-fullfillment, individuality, and freedom ever experienced by a human being.

Check it out:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/index.html
http://www.thevenusproject.com/intro_main/essay.htm
 
Teenforpaul08 said:
Listen. I don't debate with someone who, before seeing my post, already thinks in his/her mind "he's going to be wrong, I'm always right" "He socialism, he communism" "Free market is perfect."

It's counter-productive and gets no where. Sorry.
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I've been debating your comments in an entirely rational way, directly rebutting many of your posts piece by piece. You just didn't like hearing disagreement, and so you completely discounted everything everyone else said without offering solid reasons, and you just continued to parrot your same baseless assertions over and over. In other words, while I'm very confident in my views, I'm plenty open-minded and a strong argument can sway me. Keep in mind that I once had very socialist tendencies. The fact is, you just didn't offer any argument that came anywhere close to what I'd call "strong."
 
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