torchbearer
Lizard King
- Joined
- May 26, 2007
- Messages
- 38,926
We are glad to have you here.
Ron Paul Blimp Email
- Thread starter Primbs
- Start date
We are glad to have you here.
Most everyone in south beach makes more, this is where Trevor left.
IMHO, both sides have merit. When the contribution is coming from grass root volunteers, a salary like $1,000/month looks a lot. But it is also true, there is no free lunch.
Looking at what at Treveor has accomplished so far, like Nov 5th money bomb, I would give him the benefit of doubt and continue with my small contribution.
Let us wait for 1-2 months and see the progress. Then we can always decide not to contribute. But now is not the right time for bickering. Let us have patience for 1 full month at least and review later again.
The campaign needs our efforts and money NOW, let us not lose sight of a forest worrying about a tree...
Thanks, jt
Looking at what at Treveor has accomplished so far, like Nov 5th money bomb, I would give him the benefit of doubt and continue with my small contribution.
Let us wait for 1-2 months and see the progress. Then we can always decide not to contribute. But now is not the right time for bickering. Let us have patience for 1 full month at least and review later again.
The campaign needs our efforts and money NOW, let us not lose sight of a forest worrying about a tree...
Thanks, jt
click4dwilson
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2007
- Messages
- 24
Wow that was a transparent attempt to suck every last nickel out of people.
I don't really see the point of this discussion - but I'd like to get to know the person, who is in the process of starting a business and already makes 52k/year.
must be a good business model. (hint, hint)
they are not "already making 52k/year" they are raising funds for a blimp down payment first and foremost.
BTW according to the average's PACs are a great business model for those that think 52k a year is a lot:
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...vey.ppt+PAC+salaries&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us
If this project had not lost sight of what true grassroots is about (giving time and effort with the only expected return being RP in the White House) and if it had not become this bloated money making/ego boosting/career building project - I could and would have given a substantial amount of money to this.
Too bad, because it is not a bad idea if you take away all the lawyers and those who don't need to be paid. Just have the pilot and co-pilot fly the blimp to key locations while the MeetUps in those locations contact the media, get rallies going, promote it, etc. - for free.
Too bad, because it is not a bad idea if you take away all the lawyers and those who don't need to be paid. Just have the pilot and co-pilot fly the blimp to key locations while the MeetUps in those locations contact the media, get rallies going, promote it, etc. - for free.
torchbearer
Lizard King
- Joined
- May 26, 2007
- Messages
- 38,926
You forget that this is made possible by grassroots. Oh yeh- forgot. Profit is not a sin.
The point of a grassroots effort is not to make a profit in order to maxamize profit to the campaign.
The grassroots making phone calls, writing letters, handing out literature, giving money on their own - all on their own dime is what grassroots is about.
A campaign raising money thorugh a professional fundraiser who takes a cut is not grassroots. A for-profit blimp where the porfits do not go to the campaign is not grassroots.
I have no prob with the blimp. I just think it has become a bloated, over managed bureaucracy with too many employees.
I think you might be drasticly underestimating how much work those employees have taken upon themselves, and how much they're going to accomplish in the next few months. It will be like having a second campaign.
I've been following this whole thing from the beginning, read the emails, the threads, every page on the site, etc... it started out simply enough, and it took me a bit by surprise when the thing started evolving, but I see where they're going with it, and I think it's smart. I also think I was naive at first about how simple it would be to simply rent a blimp - maybe we all were.
Well, I hope it works out. I'll focus my efforts elsewhere.
Whatever you do will be appreciated (I hope).
Man from La Mancha
Member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2007
- Messages
- 4,007
Where was this offer 2 weeks ago or last summer when Trevor suggested this blimp? Please do start up another project or jump on one that you see here.
.
Hey - a blimp project representative has started a thread, and is answering all questions:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=46258
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=46258
leonster
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 361
You don't believe you should pay a man for his work? When someone here does something freely, that is a privilege grant.
of course, a privilege granted later becomes a right expected.
Sacrifice is not a virtue. And demanding free services of others is communism and socialism. If you believe in property rights and self rights... which are the same thing, then you have to believe a man owns his labor and owes it to no cause but his own.
I understand your anger, but you can't demand others to sacrifice like you have or they have no worth... that is insulting.
I understand what you're saying but....
Ok, both sides need to step back a moment and realize that most of the people here are not trying to sabotage something... there ARE a few, perhaps, but almost everyone who has posted in this thread wants to see the blimp up and flying. The people disagreeing with you (I mean "you" generally, to everyone)... just remember, they aren't the "enemy" or anything. Let's be respectful to each other here...
With that said... I understand what you are saying. It's wrong to DEMAND people to sacrifice their time, jobs, ability to pay bills, etc.
..but I don't think anyone (or hardly anyone) is demanding Trevor, Elijah, or anyone, to sacrifice in this way. If anyone is demanding this, or has this attitude... please think about it long and hard.
But in my opinion, what they are saying is this: if Trevor, Elijah, et al, cannot do this project full-time without being paid... that's fine and understandable.
But there probably ARE other people that can step in for many of the duties... and that WOULD be willing to do it for free.
Why not allow them to volunteer? If they are capable, that is...
Here were my questions:
I have a few simple questions:
1. How much money are the folks who are running this project going to make? (All of them)?
2. Where is the money going that is coming in as revenue from the advertising sales that is above and beyond your operating expenses?
3. Why is this a for profit venture, Elijah's post did not explain anything to me?
4. How long does this thing need to be in the air and why?
5. What happens if this project never gets off the ground, do the people that have donated so far get their money back?
6. When you write that there will be no refunds are you talking about for the advertising venture? If so, how can you do that? Don't people who pay for advertising usually get what they paid for? How often do folks agree to such a deal?
7. You make it clear under the Terms of Purchase that "you are not making a donation to any political candidate or committee. " This implies that you cannot use any excess funds you make from the advertising to help Ron Paul in any way or support other grass roots efforts to support him either, including supporting grass roots efforts for any TV, radio, or newspaper ads.
8. I have a million questions about your terms of service because every other sentence seems to contradict the one before, but these are minor - not of course to those that would be purchasing from you - but they are minor to the people who are outright donating to your project.
Here was my answer:
Please visit www.RonPaulBlimp.com and read over the Terms of Sale, FAQ's and How This Works sections. There will be a Transparency section added tonight that addresses what all adds up to the $400,000 a month. There will also be a document on why we switched from a PAC to an advertising agency posted later today or early tommorow. If these documents do not address your concerns please email me with your remaining questions and I will do my best to provide all the information you need.
We want the Ron Paul Blimp Tour to be an exciting and satisfying event for all of our customers.
Katharine Memole
Customer Relations
www.RonPaulBlimp.com
Most of my questions are still unanswered. But I find it interesting they have hired a customer relations person when all we ever wanted to do was rent a blimp and have it fly around with Ron Paul's name on it.
Perhaps, the transparency section will answer all questions.
I have a few simple questions:
1. How much money are the folks who are running this project going to make? (All of them)?
2. Where is the money going that is coming in as revenue from the advertising sales that is above and beyond your operating expenses?
3. Why is this a for profit venture, Elijah's post did not explain anything to me?
4. How long does this thing need to be in the air and why?
5. What happens if this project never gets off the ground, do the people that have donated so far get their money back?
6. When you write that there will be no refunds are you talking about for the advertising venture? If so, how can you do that? Don't people who pay for advertising usually get what they paid for? How often do folks agree to such a deal?
7. You make it clear under the Terms of Purchase that "you are not making a donation to any political candidate or committee. " This implies that you cannot use any excess funds you make from the advertising to help Ron Paul in any way or support other grass roots efforts to support him either, including supporting grass roots efforts for any TV, radio, or newspaper ads.
8. I have a million questions about your terms of service because every other sentence seems to contradict the one before, but these are minor - not of course to those that would be purchasing from you - but they are minor to the people who are outright donating to your project.
Here was my answer:
Please visit www.RonPaulBlimp.com and read over the Terms of Sale, FAQ's and How This Works sections. There will be a Transparency section added tonight that addresses what all adds up to the $400,000 a month. There will also be a document on why we switched from a PAC to an advertising agency posted later today or early tommorow. If these documents do not address your concerns please email me with your remaining questions and I will do my best to provide all the information you need.
We want the Ron Paul Blimp Tour to be an exciting and satisfying event for all of our customers.
Katharine Memole
Customer Relations
www.RonPaulBlimp.com
Most of my questions are still unanswered. But I find it interesting they have hired a customer relations person when all we ever wanted to do was rent a blimp and have it fly around with Ron Paul's name on it.
Perhaps, the transparency section will answer all questions.
leonster
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 361
...On the other hand, I DO understand you, too... but it's unrealistic to think that we could get lawyers of the caliber they have (former FEC chairman) without any pay... so I do believe it is necessary to pay SOME people.
And yes, it is necessary to have a final coordinator. A project like this cannot be TOTALLY decentralized. Should we let the board members vote on every little decision, flight plan, every stop, who gets tickets, what media can ride, etc. etc.? I think that would be a recipe for dissension and ill feelings among people here. So it IS necessary to have a coordinator, pretty much full-time, and if the best available option is to have a paid coordinator, then that's fine with me.
But why so many employees?
leonster
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 361
Another way of thinking about this is... Ok, let's say we DO pay $24,000/month in salaries that do not go into the campaign, then... that is a loss to the campaign.... and the $350,000 is, as well.
Will the added attention and publicity make up for this, by making more new people aware of Ron Paul, so that enough new people will join the movement... and the $375,000 will be (more than) made up by additional people donating?
My guess is that yes, we could stand to make at least this much more in donations from new converts (not to mention, more importantly, the VOTES from new converts). But who knows... it's a risk.
In my eyes, a risk worth taking.
But we need to get more ppl involved and donating, to get this off the ground.
Here is a question to anyone who pledged but hasn't donated:
Why?
What can be done to ease your fears about donating/motivate you to donate?
I still want an answer to number 2.
2. Where is the money going that is coming in as revenue from the advertising sales that is above and beyond your operating expenses?
Can we get an answer to that?
Now I have some more questions:
A. Are the advertisements you are selling the same thing as the donations? Is there going to be any kind of advertisement on the blimp or is this just a way to get donations by going around FEC laws?
B. I noticed today that now XM radio and others want their name on the outside of the blimp. Is this thing going to look like a Race car? How much are you selling that space for and how much of the space are you planning to sell?
C. Where does the money that comes from this additional revenue for putting names on the sides of the blimp go? Into the business?
D. If this business venture is so profitable why do are asking for people who are donating to Ron Paul to pay for your business, including jackets for the crew, cameras for the videographer that you are paying?
E. How much is your lawyer charging? 500 an hour? 1500 an hour? 2000? How many hours are you expecting to use him? How many hours have you paid him for already?
F. So, tell me if I am wrong about this: the people who are trying to get Ron Paul elected are giving you what will amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars so that you can have a business where you make money, put it in your pocket and fly a blimp around?
G. Why are the grass roots supporters buying cameras for this deal?
H. Why are the grass roots supporters paying for your attorneys for your business venture?
I. Or are they?
J. Is there a difference between a donation and a "purchase" of advertising time on the blimp? Or have you merged the two?
K. What if an abortion clinic or a used car lot wants to advertise on the blimp, is that ok?
I. What kind of ads will you be running on this blimp and where will they be? On the bottom, running along like a Times Square sign? Or are there no ads at all and this is just a euphemism for donation?
J. If people purchase these "ads" is it possible they will get in trouble with the FEC if the FEC decides this is not an acceptable way to receive money for a project? How can you know what the FEC will do? How can you answer that?
To that last person who asked why I haven't donated:
1. I don't have any desire to pay money to Trevor for doing something for Ron Paul, I have been working 90 a week for free since this all began, so have many others.
2. I have no desire to purchase expensive jackets for the crew so they can look cute.
3. I have no desire to purchase an entire airship when all I ever wanted was for someone to rent a blimp, have their crew run the whole darn thing, and pay them a small amount per week for the privilege: something like 3k a week or something.
4. I have no desire to pay up to a million dollars for a blimp to be in the air; I see a million other more worthwhile projects that need money. Ads in magazines, ads in newspapers, helping to pay for yard signs.
5. I have been in Boston in December. It is freezing and gray and wet and snowy and people walk with their heads down against the wind with scarves up to their eyes and hats down to their eyebrows. Just looking up lets in freezing cold air. A. I can't imagine how a blimp can fly in a lot of the weather I have seen in Boston in the winter and B. I can't imagine how anyone could see it among the gray clouds.
6. I don't pay Ron Paul supporters to help out Ron Paul. I pay money to the campaign so they can hire who they want, but I don't pay other supporters to sit at booths or hand out literature, or make signs, or write articles, or get involved in their local GOP or go door to door with slim jims, or make phone calls to people in Iowa for a straw poll, or donate money to a spam charity event, or any other of the hundreds of thousands of things we all do for Ron Paul because we support him, not because we are looking for ways to support ourselves.
7. WE ALL ARE WORKING HARD FOR RON PAUL. NONE OF US ARE ASKING FOR A DIME. NOT ONE. SHOULD A MAN GET PAID FOR HIS LABOR, YES. SHOULD A MAN GET PAID TO VOLUNTEER HIS LABOR? I THINK NO. THAT IS WHAT THE WORD VOLUNTEER IS ALL ABOUT. AND DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME ABOUT HOW MUCH WORK THEY ARE DOING. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF US ON THIS BOARD WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING THAT HARD AND HARDER SINCE THE DAY THIS CAMPAIGN BEGAN AND WE DO IT FOR NOTHING. ASK BRADLEY OF DC HOW MUCH TIME HE HAS PUT IN LATELY. ASK LORD XAR. ASK SKIINGFF. ASK LIBERTYEAGLE. ASK ARAVOTH. Not one of them asked for a penny and never would from any of the people here. We were all in this together. We used to be. And the ones not on this board are probably working the hardest because they are not just talking about doing things, they are out there doing them. For free, because we all believe in this cause.
Lew Rockwell took a 350k hit this year because of all his articles for Ron Paul took him out of some kind of tax status that cost him a fortune, but he said he would rather give up the money than stop helping Ron Paul.
So, should a man get paid for his labor? Of course. Should a volunteer? That kind of defies the definition. Imagine if all the people who went down to help folks during Katrina and gave of themselves, their time, their money, etc. demanded to be paid for helping? What would you think of them?
2. Where is the money going that is coming in as revenue from the advertising sales that is above and beyond your operating expenses?
Can we get an answer to that?
Now I have some more questions:
A. Are the advertisements you are selling the same thing as the donations? Is there going to be any kind of advertisement on the blimp or is this just a way to get donations by going around FEC laws?
B. I noticed today that now XM radio and others want their name on the outside of the blimp. Is this thing going to look like a Race car? How much are you selling that space for and how much of the space are you planning to sell?
C. Where does the money that comes from this additional revenue for putting names on the sides of the blimp go? Into the business?
D. If this business venture is so profitable why do are asking for people who are donating to Ron Paul to pay for your business, including jackets for the crew, cameras for the videographer that you are paying?
E. How much is your lawyer charging? 500 an hour? 1500 an hour? 2000? How many hours are you expecting to use him? How many hours have you paid him for already?
F. So, tell me if I am wrong about this: the people who are trying to get Ron Paul elected are giving you what will amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars so that you can have a business where you make money, put it in your pocket and fly a blimp around?
G. Why are the grass roots supporters buying cameras for this deal?
H. Why are the grass roots supporters paying for your attorneys for your business venture?
I. Or are they?
J. Is there a difference between a donation and a "purchase" of advertising time on the blimp? Or have you merged the two?
K. What if an abortion clinic or a used car lot wants to advertise on the blimp, is that ok?
I. What kind of ads will you be running on this blimp and where will they be? On the bottom, running along like a Times Square sign? Or are there no ads at all and this is just a euphemism for donation?
J. If people purchase these "ads" is it possible they will get in trouble with the FEC if the FEC decides this is not an acceptable way to receive money for a project? How can you know what the FEC will do? How can you answer that?
To that last person who asked why I haven't donated:
1. I don't have any desire to pay money to Trevor for doing something for Ron Paul, I have been working 90 a week for free since this all began, so have many others.
2. I have no desire to purchase expensive jackets for the crew so they can look cute.
3. I have no desire to purchase an entire airship when all I ever wanted was for someone to rent a blimp, have their crew run the whole darn thing, and pay them a small amount per week for the privilege: something like 3k a week or something.
4. I have no desire to pay up to a million dollars for a blimp to be in the air; I see a million other more worthwhile projects that need money. Ads in magazines, ads in newspapers, helping to pay for yard signs.
5. I have been in Boston in December. It is freezing and gray and wet and snowy and people walk with their heads down against the wind with scarves up to their eyes and hats down to their eyebrows. Just looking up lets in freezing cold air. A. I can't imagine how a blimp can fly in a lot of the weather I have seen in Boston in the winter and B. I can't imagine how anyone could see it among the gray clouds.
6. I don't pay Ron Paul supporters to help out Ron Paul. I pay money to the campaign so they can hire who they want, but I don't pay other supporters to sit at booths or hand out literature, or make signs, or write articles, or get involved in their local GOP or go door to door with slim jims, or make phone calls to people in Iowa for a straw poll, or donate money to a spam charity event, or any other of the hundreds of thousands of things we all do for Ron Paul because we support him, not because we are looking for ways to support ourselves.
7. WE ALL ARE WORKING HARD FOR RON PAUL. NONE OF US ARE ASKING FOR A DIME. NOT ONE. SHOULD A MAN GET PAID FOR HIS LABOR, YES. SHOULD A MAN GET PAID TO VOLUNTEER HIS LABOR? I THINK NO. THAT IS WHAT THE WORD VOLUNTEER IS ALL ABOUT. AND DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME ABOUT HOW MUCH WORK THEY ARE DOING. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF US ON THIS BOARD WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING THAT HARD AND HARDER SINCE THE DAY THIS CAMPAIGN BEGAN AND WE DO IT FOR NOTHING. ASK BRADLEY OF DC HOW MUCH TIME HE HAS PUT IN LATELY. ASK LORD XAR. ASK SKIINGFF. ASK LIBERTYEAGLE. ASK ARAVOTH. Not one of them asked for a penny and never would from any of the people here. We were all in this together. We used to be. And the ones not on this board are probably working the hardest because they are not just talking about doing things, they are out there doing them. For free, because we all believe in this cause.
Lew Rockwell took a 350k hit this year because of all his articles for Ron Paul took him out of some kind of tax status that cost him a fortune, but he said he would rather give up the money than stop helping Ron Paul.
So, should a man get paid for his labor? Of course. Should a volunteer? That kind of defies the definition. Imagine if all the people who went down to help folks during Katrina and gave of themselves, their time, their money, etc. demanded to be paid for helping? What would you think of them?
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