Ron Paul and Murray Sabrin are Split on Steve Lonegan for NJ Governor

Because Lonegan has a better chance of winning than Kaplan?

Truth is, the truly free markets will not emerge over night. It will take steps to get us there. And Lonegan has an astronomically statisticaly greater chance of getting us there than Kaplan at this very moment in time (with elections around the corner)

I like how you guys claim to be for the free market and freedom but when it comes down to it you choose the candidate that is the opposite.

Socialize the school system, let big brother monitor your personal life, let them tell you what you can and can't do on your property. You have the opportunity to change that and you sit down and shutup.

Don't talk about fighting for freedom....don't speak any of the dogma because when it comes down to it you guys don't walk the walk.
 
I like how you guys claim to be for the free market and freedom but when it comes down to it you choose the candidate that is the opposite.

Socialize the school system, let big brother monitor your personal life, let them tell you what you can and can't do on your property. You have the opportunity to change that and you sit down and shutup.

Don't talk about fighting for freedom....don't speak any of the dogma because when it comes down to it you guys don't walk the walk.

Vote for whomever you want to vote for. :)
 
I like how you guys claim to be for the free market and freedom but when it comes down to it you choose the candidate that is the opposite.

Socialize the school system, let big brother monitor your personal life, let them tell you what you can and can't do on your property. You have the opportunity to change that and you sit down and shutup.

Don't talk about fighting for freedom....don't speak any of the dogma because when it comes down to it you guys don't walk the walk.


Go back to the farm, straw man.
 
If you dont think the largest tax cuts in New Jersey history would help our economy there is no talking to you. Peter Schiff supports Lonegan tax plan. Maintaing an injust system is worse than cutting tax for the wealthy and raising them for the poor. If he could abolish taxe all together he certainly would, but doesn't want to look like a crank like Ron Paul did. He has a feasible plan that would free up major capital to stimulate the private sector.

Lonegan is definitely a free market guy. You want to pretend Lonegan is someone he isn't. Keep living in lalaland.

And lastly, Lonegan is still down in the polls. Last time I checked he was down by 9% with likely Republican voters. Looking at yard signs is not a scientific method of analyzing support.

Dude, you didn't answer my other question.

Who are the 25% of New Jersey taxpayers who will see a tax increase with Lonegan's plan?
 
My flat tax plan will start with a flat tax rate of 2.9% on every dollar earned. The rate will decrease to 2.5% the following year, and further to 2.1% in the third year.
http://lonegan.com/The_Flat_Income_Tax.aspx

Anyone that is currently paying less than 2.9% of state income tax would receive a tax increase under this plan. This plan will destroy the progressive income tax and replace it with the same flat tax rate for all New Jerseyians. This would be a major tax cut for New Jersey, although some poorer people will be paying more.
 
Well you can't seem to answer the question or justify you decision.

All you can do is spew nonsense and throw out personal insults.


Keep making stuff up. I've justified myself plenty of times, as did Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Mike Doherty, and any other free market loving people of New Jersey.

And lets not forget that you were the first to throw out personal insults.

You're trying to paint Lonegan as someone he isn't. You're wasting everyone's time.
 
Keep making stuff up. I've justified myself plenty of times, as did Ron Paul, Peter Schiff, Mike Doherty, and any other free market loving people of New Jersey.

And lets not forget that you were the first to throw out personal insults.

You're trying to paint Lonegan as someone he isn't. You're wasting everyone's time.

You still refuse to answer the question. How is raising taxation on anyone free market? How is keeping socialized schooling and excessive market regulations in play free market?
Why won't you vote for a true free market candidate?

You keep backing up your choice with Ron Paul and Peter Schiff, but they've been wrong in the past and Peter has been wrong fairly frequently. He even admits there will be a tax hike but that it's necessary to "lower taxes" which is horse shit. However, you still won't acknowledge that.

Stop saying Lonegan is free market and that you support free market because it's evident you don't know what a true free market is and you're supporting someone that is putting bars on the free market by raising taxes and keeping excessive regulation in place. Get over yourself and don't post another mindless post, buddy. You refuse to address any of my points and just run in circles and it's getting obnoxious.
 
You still refuse to answer the question. How is raising taxation on anyone free market?

Raising taxes on some people in order to dramatically reduce them across the board is free market. He is taking money away from the public sector to put back into the free private markets. Taking a little from everyone that is paying less than 2.9 in order to greatly reduce taxes for everyone paying more than 2.9 does great good for the free market. Perhaps you need to visit mises.org and brush up on your economics.
How is keeping socialized schooling and excessive market regulations in play free market?

How is keeping the socialized police force, the socialized fire departments, and the socialized national guard, and any regulations at all in play with free market?

Just because Lonegan wont go to the same extremes as Kaplan doesn't mean he isn't promoting the free market, he just isn't promoting it to as great an extent. Just because Kaplan is more radical, doesn't make everyone else a socialist.



Why won't you vote for a true free market candidate?

Because there is another candidate who is fairly free market who possesses an exponentially higher chance of winning.


You keep backing up your choice with Ron Paul and Peter Schiff, but they've been wrong in the past and Peter has been wrong fairly frequently. He even admits there will be a tax hike but that it's necessary to "lower taxes" which is horse shit. However, you still won't acknowledge that.

I bet they haven't been wrong as frequently as you have. If not they wouldn't be the leaders of this movemenet while you are stuck posting on an old election forum.

Stop saying Lonegan is free market and that you support free market because it's evident you don't know what a true free market is and you're supporting someone that is putting bars on the free market by raising taxes and keeping excessive regulation in place. Get over yourself and don't post another mindless post, buddy. You refuse to address any of my points and just run in circles and it's getting obnoxious.


Lonegan is cutting taxes, Lonegan is cutting regulation, Lonegan is abolishing socialist programs. All of that sounds like pretty free market stuff to me. Just because he wont pursue those objectives as aggressively as your candidate doesn't mean he isn't free market. If we held all our candidates to the same standards as you are holding yours, we wouldn't be electing anyone, would we?

Lonegan is for less government, that means I'm for him.
 
You still refuse to answer the question. How is raising taxation on anyone free market? How is keeping socialized schooling and excessive market regulations in play free market?
Why won't you vote for a true free market candidate?

How is taxation at all free market? I really could care less about having a litmus test of "degree of free market ideas".

Why not vote for lonegan and if he loses then go kaplan?
 
Raising taxes on some people in order to dramatically reduce them across the board is free market. He is taking money away from the public sector to put back into the free private markets. Taking a little from everyone that is paying less than 2.9 in order to greatly reduce taxes for everyone paying more than 2.9 does great good for the free market. Perhaps you need to visit mises.org and brush up on your economics.

Raising taxes is NEVER free market. Don't tell ME to brush up on MY economics when I've been dead on with predictions and I've championed the free market since day one. My job involves economics so I think I know what I'm talking about and I think Mises knew what he was talking about when he denounced the income tax. You're a stuck up college kid talking out of his ass. YOU go read up on mises.org because you just tried to pass off complete and total bullshit as fact.


How is keeping the socialized police force, the socialized fire departments, and the socialized national guard, and any regulations at all in play with free market?

You clearly don't understand economics. The free market functions in regard to more than taxation. Incentives are what drives the economy, and when you have state run industries you minimize incentive. The regulations I was referring to involve issues such as the codes and standards (plumbing, housing regulations, construction code) and pertinent property law and legislation. Not to mention Lonegan hasn't really addressed the issue of our welfare state. He falls short by miles.

Just because Lonegan wont go to the same extremes as Kaplan doesn't mean he isn't promoting the free market, he just isn't promoting it to as great an extent. Just because Kaplan is more radical, doesn't make everyone else a socialist.

You either have a free market or you don't. There isn't an in between. What don't you understand about that? Like I said, you clearly don't understand economics. A pseudo free market is not a free market and it doesn't function like a free market. It's night and day. To be for a free market you have to support free market principles. Lowering taxes is ONE of MANY, and Lonegan doesn't even get that right because he won't commit to cutting the income tax.




Because there is another candidate who is fairly free market who possesses an exponentially higher chance of winning.

As I've stated and proven, Lonegan is not free market. There is no middle ground.




I bet they haven't been wrong as frequently as you have. If not they wouldn't be the leaders of this movemenet while you are stuck posting on an old election forum.

Grasping for straws, are we? Purely speculation on your part. Ron has endorsed some very questionable characters (Benton speaks for him so I'm sure Ron didn't scrutinize Lonegan, not to mention Benton pushes for Sanford who isn't a conservative either). Schiff's clients have lost just as much, if not more, money than those in the American markets. He acknowledges it and tries to justify it by saying he didn't see a deflationary period coming. Don't give me the "long term" BS. If Schiff can't run his brokerage firm and make good recommendations what makes you think he knows what he's talking about? Raising taxes to get lower taxes is NOT a justification. That's like saying we have to give up freedom to GAIN freedom. It's BULLSHIT.




Lonegan is cutting taxes, Lonegan is cutting regulation, Lonegan is abolishing socialist programs. All of that sounds like pretty free market stuff to me. Just because he wont pursue those objectives as aggressively as your candidate doesn't mean he isn't free market. If we held all our candidates to the same standards as you are holding yours, we wouldn't be electing anyone, would we?

Lonegan is for less government, that means I'm for him.

Lonegan is NOT cutting taxes effectively, he ISN'T cutting regulation (you pulled that out of your ass, nowhere has he addressed our codes and standards issues), and he hasn't touched on MANY, if not ALL of our Socialist programs in place. He is, at best, MODERATE. That is not free market, there is no half ass in a free market. Free market is what it implies; FREE. It's not about "being aggressive." A real free market would be considered "aggressive" by today's standards because we haven't had one in AGES. But that's what a true free market is and if you think a real free market is "too radical" then you don't really support a free market. Your definition of a free market economy is not what a true free market is so stop saying it. You are WRONG. Kaplan is the only individual in the race that will restore a TRUE free market. Lonegan just wants to backup and restore a slightly better psuedo free market than what we have now, although it's still absolutely horrific.
 
How is taxation at all free market? I really could care less about having a litmus test of "degree of free market ideas".

Why not vote for lonegan and if he loses then go kaplan?

BECAUSE HE'S NOT A FREE MARKET CANDIDATE. No offense, but you guys clearly don't know what a free market is. You want a pseudo free market. I want a FREE MARKET. That is free of government interference and regulation and is championed by the Austrian School. You are incorrectly defining "free market."
 
Murray Sabrin joined Bret Schundler as formerly good candidates who were screwed by the nj rino msm 'republican' party. Instead of fighting back, they both sold out as did Steve Forbes to the julie annie rockefellerrepublicantraitors.
 
Yawn. I understand full well what it means to have a free market and am a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist. Where in Lonegan's platform does it state he is for more government control of the economy?

Is it here?:

We must transform our current government from 16 departments to 13 by eliminating and/or realigning 4 Departments and establishing one new department. These rectifications will allow us to decrease spending from its current level in excess of $30 billion to $25 billion.

Wait, how bout here. This is where he shows he
s a real socialist:
As your governor, I will implement a proven plan that will revitalize our state’s economy and bring businesses and people back to New Jersey. This plan will include cutting our state government by no less than 20%, cutting taxes (including the personal and corporate income taxes), cutting regulations and burdensome bureaucracies, and allowing the free market to work without the unnatural interference of a heavy-handed government.

No wait, here is shwere is real anti-free market colors show:
The Council on Affordable Housing (COAH) is a group of nameless, faceless bureaucrats who are determined to force over 100,000 taxpayer-subsidized, low-income housing units into every town around the state of New Jersey. This radical agenda, promoted by Jon Corzine, flows from the New Jersey Supreme Court’s Mt. Laurel decision that created a previously non-existent constitutional right to an affordable house.

Corzine’s plan, based upon this court legislated creation, will result in higher taxes, greater wealth redistribution, and elimination of our hometowns and ways of living. Furthermore it is an obvious attempt to re-engineer the state’s demographics for political gain. It is a liberal law created by a liberal court, passed by a liberal legislature, and implemented by a liberal executive, and the problems it has generated are too many to count. It must be completely overturned.

In order to eliminate COAH, I will get a question placed on the ballot allowing the voters to overturn the Mt. Laurel decision so that housing and zoning decisions can be returned to local municipalities, as was the case for our entire state history. Until I can place the question on a ballot, I will cut funding for COAH so it cannot impose its unrestrained will upon local communities.

Wait, I got him! Now we know Lonegan is a socialist!
In 2005 the Supreme Court issued its ruling in the case of Kelo v. The City of New London, where 5 justices rewrote the Federal Constitution and held that a municipality could use the power of eminent domain for “economic gain,” or increased tax ratables.

In response to the Kelo decision, an overwhelming number of states passed laws or amended their constitutions to reinforce the fact that governments cannot take a person’s property unless it is for a public use. However, New Jersey remains one of only a handful of states that has taken no action in response to the Kelo decision. Instead, New Jersey allows all governmental entities in the state to steal private property if the government thinks it can find a better use for the property.

As governor I will pose a question on the ballot so that voters can decide whether eminent domain should once again be limited to cases of a traditional public use. When I was Mayor of Bogota, I put a referendum in that regard on the ballot and it passed with 95% of the vote. I am sure the statewide question will pass with a similar result.



I want to live in a free society just as much as you do, if not more. The difference is I know we're not going to get there over night. We need to start with electing officials who are interested in reducing the size of government, not attempt to elect extreme radicals who have no chance of winning. Lonegan might not be a rothbardian anarcho-capitalist like you or I, but he is for the free market, and will shrink the size of government if elected.

You can continue to close your ears and shut your eyes to the reality of Lonegan's beliefs and intentions, but I'm done talking to you.
 
Yawn. I understand full well what it means to have a free market and am a Rothbardian anarcho-capitalist. Where in Lonegan's platform does it state he is for more government control of the economy?

Is it here?:



Wait, how bout here. This is where he shows he
s a real socialist:


No wait, here is shwere is real anti-free market colors show:


Wait, I got him! Now we know Lonegan is a socialist!




I want to live in a free society just as much as you do, if not more. The difference is I know we're not going to get there over night. We need to start with electing officials who are interested in reducing the size of government, not attempt to elect extreme radicals who have no chance of winning. Lonegan might not be a rothbardian anarcho-capitalist like you or I, but he is for the free market, and will shrink the size of government if elected.

You can continue to close your ears and shut your eyes to the reality of Lonegan's beliefs and intentions, but I'm done talking to you.

1. 16 to 13 departments and 30 to 25 billion are not ample cuts. 2. He's contradicted himself in speeches. He is proposing a tax hike. Tax hikes are never free market. 3. He wants to eliminate COAH, not welfare programs. He is keeping many welfare programs in place. 4. Eminent domain is not subject to popular democracy, and this is his greatest pitfall. We are a republic; property rights are not subject to the will of the majority. If he is going to leave laws subject to the will of the people rather than recognizing natural rights, we are in trouble.

Now, will you respond to my previous post and show me where he states he will open up a free market economy free of government regulation, codes, and standards? Or where he says he will return health care or education to a free market? Do you even know where he stands on those issues?

You're done talking to me because you can't answer the hard questions. You blow off my valid criticism and come back with nonsense. I stated in my previous post he wants to move backward to a less restrained pseudo free market; that's STILL not a true free market.

Additionally, I'm not an anarcho capitalist. Furthermore, you aren't even a capitalist or supporter of the free market. You clearly do not want freedom in all aspects of life because you are supporting someone that does not support that. Fact of the matter is there is a choice between a true free market candidate and another republican talking head. You are choosing the latter with many people. Just because he has a "better chance of winning" does not make him right. You are casting your vote against the true free market and for restricted and regulated markets.That is a FACT.
 
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This would be a major tax cut for New Jersey, although some poorer people will be paying more.

Tax cuts for the middle class and the rich at the expense of the poor.

I can't support that.

And not just because my taxes would be raised.
 
Tax cuts for the middle class and the rich at the expense of the poor.

I can't support that.

And not just because my taxes would be raised.

Mine would be lowered significantly and I still can't support it. Raising taxes on anyone is a bad idea; Kaplan will get rid of the income tax.
 
Mine would be lowered significantly and I still can't support it. Raising taxes on anyone is a bad idea; Kaplan will get rid of the income tax.

Yeah, I wonder if jmlfod also supports Obama's tax plan, of giving "95%" of taxpayers a tax cut, and raising the highest tax rate? It's a very large tax cut, and it "only" raises the taxes of a small number of people.

What do you say, jmlfod?
 
Obama's plan doesn't amount to tax cuts. The budget is substantially higher than it was before the change in tax policy. The only true tax cuts are ones that coincide with budget cuts. Lonegan will cut the budget, which means everyone will benefit from the tax cuts.

If you don't understand how raising taxes on the poor but massively cutting taxes for everyone else and cutting the budget actually helps the poor then you need to visit mises.org.

And thats the last reply you'll get from me knightskye. This thread is done, you guys dont want to support someone who has pledged to cut the budget and cut taxes at a time when NJ desperately needs someone to do these things, and thats fine with me, bye.
 
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