Rise of the "HomoCon"

And just when I was about to write this off as irreconcilable differences - whereas I do believe objective right and wrong exists - you turn around and impose upon me what my duties are. HA!

There is no such thing as objective right and wrong. You have no proof of their existence and never will.

The duty I'm talking about isn't one that I would claim is grounded in morality. It's grounded in the logical consistency of libertarian political ideology. But I guess that's a little out of your league.
 
Creepy. One of those girls looks precisely like someone I had a pillowfight with. None of them are me, though, so I'm safe and not yet a meme.

Haha, just when i thought we had finally gotten rid of all these Pillowcons infiltrating the movement
 
There is no such thing as objective right and wrong. You have no proof of their existence and never will.

The duty I'm talking about isn't one that I would claim is grounded in morality. It's grounded in the logical consistency of libertarian political ideology. But I guess that's a little out of your league.

:)
 
I'd support an end to state-sanctioned marriage - with the exception of provisions to prohibit minors from marriage.

Contracts signed by people who are of diminished ability to consent are generally not enforced. I'd say this goes for marriage, too.
 
Half-ass libertarians just oppose state violence. Real libertarians oppose state violence because they are PRO freedom, and AGAINST ALL forms of oppression. We don't turn a blind eye to racism, sexism, class inequality, and bigotry. We know that these are social maladies that will ONLY be overcome if we actively work against them. We know a society is not truly free if dominated by bigotry in all of its ugly forms. Don't be blinded by a singular goal of opposing the state - be aware that human freedom has many enemies of which the state is only one.

Please, oh wise one of the highest league, enlighten us lowly types as to how we can logically oppose violence, oppression, racism, sexism, class inequality, and bigotry.

In your world without proof of objective right or wrong - how do I logically advocate liberty and freedom?

Can you prove liberty and freedom are logically good or worth supporting?

How do we know our brains haven't constructed an artificial category of activities labeled "freedom" or "liberty" and then placed various things within them based on the social norms we've internalized as we have been exposed to them in various settings. :eek:
 
I never aggress with my pillows.

I believe aggression is OK if it is consentual.

For example, boxing. Or BDSM.

I wonder if the hardliners here believe that boxing should be illegal. Do I have to get permission from God to box, too? I know there's always a victim in every boxing match, somebody gets hurt...
 
Please, oh wise one of the highest league, enlighten us lowly types as to how we can logically oppose violence, oppression, racism, sexism, class inequality, and bigotry.

In your world without proof of objective right or wrong - how do I logically advocate liberty and freedom?

Can you prove liberty and freedom are logically good or worth supporting?

How do we know our brains haven't constructed an artificial category of activities labeled "freedom" or "liberty" and then placed various things within them based on the social norms we've internalized as we have been exposed to them in various settings. :eek:

You're the one who is placing artificial rules on everything.. some book that as far as I'm concerned COULD BE a complete fairytale. And you try to enforce those rules on me. Ridiculous.

You're not listening to any of my posts, either. I HAVE THE RIGHT to protect myself from violence, I have the RIGHT to protect my property. Therefore I can TRANSFER that right to the state. That has nothing to do with the bible, it's about logic. If you don't allow me to protect myself, you are infringing on my rights. If I protect myself from violence, I'm not infringing on anybody else's rights. It's pretty simple, yes, you can use logic to set moral standards that the state can enforce.

You do not have the RIGHT to tell me who I can or cannot have sex with, only the person I'm having sex with has the RIGHT to accept or deny, or in the case where they are not in a position to make that decision (child who doesn't understand what sex is, animal, etc) ONLY at that point can you consider transferring the authority to the state to make those enforcements.
 
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Krug, you really should watch this short 6 part series (they are like 4 or 5 minutes each i think):

YouTube - DVD Version INTRO Individualism vs Collectivism


It's one of my favorite videos. It clearly outlines, logically, what the government ought to be able to enforce and what it ought not enforce.

If you believe in God, then you believe that those who sin will receive their divine justice. I am still not sure why you want to be involved in a process that you are not supposed to be involved in. Judgment BY GOD, not by man.
 
You're the one who is placing artificial rules on everything.. some book that as far as I'm concerned COULD BE a complete fairytale. And you try to enforce those rules on me. Ridiculous.

You're not listening to any of my posts, either. I HAVE THE RIGHT to protect myself from violence, I have the RIGHT to protect my property. Therefore I can TRANSFER that right to the state. That has nothing to do with the bible, it's about logic. If you don't allow me to protect myself, you are infringing on my rights. If I protect myself from violence, I'm not infringing on anybody else's rights. It's pretty simple, yes, you can use logic to set moral standards that the state can enforce.

You do not have the RIGHT to tell me who I can or cannot have sex with, only the person I'm having sex with has the RIGHT to accept or deny, or in the case where they are not in a position to make that decision (child who doesn't understand what sex is, animal, etc) ONLY at that point can you consider transferring the authority to the state to make those enforcements.

I think I may have missed something ... I've pretty much agreed with all of your posts.
 
Krug, you really should watch this short 6 part series (they are like 4 or 5 minutes each i think):
It's one of my favorite videos. It clearly outlines, logically, what the government ought to be able to enforce and what it ought not enforce.

If you believe in God, then you believe that those who sin will receive their divine justice. I am still not sure why you want to be involved in a process that you are not supposed to be involved in. Judgment BY GOD, not by man.

I will watch them ... but it might not be until next week. Theologically/morally, I think I'm only on record for believing that right and wrong can objectively exist and that murder is objectively wrong.
 
There are many ways to look at Liberty and see it's an ends:

Biblical: God gave people Free Will to do right or wrong, and it's his job to judge what we do with it, for other humans to judge or limit free will would be to try usurp the power of god which to me seems it'd be pretty. People should be more concerened what they do with their free will than what other do with theirs. May he without sin cast the first stone...


Neutrality: If you believe in a sort of neutrality which I kinda do, promoting liberty is the most logical way to do so, cause liberty from opression takes away the power of government to impose values which is the government will always do in any action, since all action communicates some sort of value. So essentially someone getting involved in someone elses social or economic liberty is breaking that neutrality unprovoked.


Nature: When you born, and as human, you have the ability to think, speak, etc. Laws can create consequences to these abilities, but they are naturally there so they are a function of nature or natural rights. So to limit somebodys ability to speak or think, is to penalize them for using there natural rights is to go against nature which is probably not good. Where some people perverse this argument is that they assume this collectivist survival of the species as an ends and think the only method to survival is reproduction, while logically with limited resources not reproducing can be just ashelpful reproducing in the current state of survival


Logic: If it's ok for you impose your values on someone else, then it must be ok for someone else to impose their values on you... if you reject this, therefore it must not be ok for anyone to impose their values on anyone so anything that does must be bad.
 
Hmm ya I haven't read the entire thread, I probably just had the wrong idea about your posts.

Definitely worth the watch, everybody should watch that short series...
 
I think there oughta be a law that bugerers be rendered at Guantanamo to turn in all their sex partners, given a fair trial and boiled in oil.

There, now at least, we can have a few non-straw-man arguments from the pro-gay people.
 
Please, oh wise one of the highest league, enlighten us lowly types as to how we can logically oppose violence, oppression, racism, sexism, class inequality, and bigotry.

Um, you oppose them because you prefer a society that is more prosperous, more egalitarian, and where people have a better opportunity to live fulfilling, satisfying lives. It's not difficult to demonstrate that violence, oppression, racism, sexism, class inequality and bigotry reduce these things.

What I'm trying to point out is that it is silly to be a libertarian and silly to be someone who goes on and on about 'liberty' and then act as if your ideology does not say anything about other forms of oppression and coercion besides state violence. No - it logically must say something about it, because the underlying reasons for supporting liberty is that it human beings are better off when they are free of oppression; oppression that is not just limited to formal law.

In your world without proof of objective right or wrong - how do I logically advocate liberty and freedom?

Can you prove liberty and freedom are logically good or worth supporting?

You could probably prove that "freedom is good" is logically consistent with some other moral axiom. But actions and concepts just aren't actually "good" or "bad" - although it would be true to say that something is "good" or "bad" to you.

Start with objective reality (or as close as we can get to it). We all have our own self interests and we all are aware of that fact. Of course, I'd benefit the most from rules/systems which only took into account my own interests, and vise versa. Since we both know this, we can develop a compromise, to secure a minimum level of satisfaction of our interests, which involves recognizing other people's interests.

Of course, some of this is already hardwired into our brains as I said before, and we have evolved a capacity to internalize norms and view them as moral truths (when they aren't objective statements about the status of reality at all) because that benefited our survival in a social setting. Advocating liberty or freedom is quite simple, in that all you are doing is arguing that a particular set of rules (ranging from rules about who makes the rules, rules about how rules are enforced, rules about who enforces the rules, rules about who decides when the enforcer of the rules has broken the rules, to rules about punishment, etc, etc) not only because it conforms with the rudimentary notions of empathy and reciprocity hardwired in us (on the grounds that it makes it a set of rules which we are capable of living by, or practical) but also because it achieves that which is in our own personal interests - an objective issue.

How do we know our brains haven't constructed an artificial category of activities labeled "freedom" or "liberty" and then placed various things within them based on the social norms we've internalized as we have been exposed to them in various settings. :eek:

That's kinda exactly what we do... it's just how our brains work. We construct artificial things because of their practical effectiveness in helping us navigate and understand our environments and thus survive/procreate effectively. It doesn't mean that they somehow exist outside of our brains.

I mean, we know that cells, atoms, and other small particles exist, but our brains just weren't built with the capacity to understand the existence of those things on such a small scale because it wasn't necessary to our survival. Instead we developed other mental tools, one of which was the moral construct which is probably closely linked to our emotional responses (as is most our brain honestly).

There is, perhaps, a slight difference between moral constructs and the constructs of language which may be why we often confuse our moral judgments with some sort of external truth. Language, such as the word "freedom", is actually describing something about objective reality. It is a mental construct, but it's describing a state of affairs. When you think of something as "wrong," you aren't even describing anything about the status of objective reality other than perhaps the objective facts that the action/behavior is contrary to social norms or has materially adverse effects upon your interests. Indeed, that's what I'm arguing is the entire basis of morality: practical effects which influence social norms which are then internalized and conceptualized as "morality."
 
I think there oughta be a law that bugerers be rendered at Guantanamo to turn in all their sex partners, given a fair trial and boiled in oil.

There, now at least, we can have a few non-straw-man arguments from the pro-gay people.

Yes, because responding to the allegation that homosexuality is responsible for the decay of society isn't actually valid. Thank you. I feel so much better, now that you felt a need to waltz in here and add that to the discussion.

:rolleyes:
 
Can we agree that it is possible for two males or females to consent to each other?

On your assumption that there is always victim, why is the state punishing the victim?

Nobody here is asking the state to codify allowing homosexual behavior, the point that I am making is that you cannot justify the use of government force to stop people from consensual activities.

You can use the government to do things that you also have the right to do.

There it is again, excluding the God of all creation from the equation, then saying it is just a matter of two parties consenting. For it to be a consensual act, ALL parties relevant to the matter have to be consenting. God does not consent, so God is the victim here, and secondarily other people who will suffer from societal consequences of of state-legitimized sin/immorality.

If consideration for the third party here is excluded from what law is adopted, then yes, the codified law allows the behavior. This the crux of the difference between the two sides, not the smug and bogus pigeon holing of this as "using government force to stop consensual behavior." God is relevant in this matter, and the implication he is not is another religion that, as reflected in law, also imposes a view on others.
 
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