Rifle Scope

[GunnyFreedom]

bumper crop

 

[Intoxiklown]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GunnyFreedom again.


I just to want say that I am not what one would call a jealous person. That said, I'm jealous....lol

Very nice weapon, brother. I wish I knew enough about optics to offer advice, but I am on record about my woeful knowledge concerning them. I am, however, reading with interest.

 

[youngbuck]

I've heard that those ATNs lack ruggedness.

You will definitely want a first focal plane scope for any sort of tactical/combat applications. Make sure it is MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL, no combination of the two that you may senselessly find on some scopes. I suggest a 50mm or 56mm objective lens. 12x magnification is enough to get you to 1000m, but higher magnification will allow you to better gauge mirage, bullet tracing, etc. You will also pay for higher magnification of the same quality. At high magnification, it is paramount to have high quality glass, otherwise you will simply be magnifying artifacts and distortions. I can provide more suggestions if you would like, but I hope this guides you in the right direction.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

If your rifle is for self defense and combat, forget it. Scopes are useless. Get an m1a scout for close quarters to mid range(preferred), or fully loaded model for distance, with classic picatinny peep hole sights with lateral and vertical adjustment for wind and distance accuracy. Forget scopes...., red dot is garbage. Your rifle is only as good as your instinct.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

.308 is designed for hunting.

30-ought 6 is designed to have a trajectory that tumbles slightly down so that you can hit a target over a hill without having to fully see it...if you know what to do

 

[younglibertarian]

I like my Nikon scope a great deal... Granted I'm new to bolt action rifles and am still learning the skill of distance shooting, my Nikon scope gets it done. It's a Nikon Prostaff. You can get whatever reticle you want and add knobs, etc. Simple but HIGHLY effective glass from folks that know how to make glass.

I have the same scope on my remington 700, fantastic combo. However I think the OP is looking for a higher quality scope. Have you looked at Leopold?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

If your rifle is for self defense and combat, forget it. Scopes are useless. Get an m1a scout for close quarters to mid range(preferred), or fully loaded model for distance, with classic picatinny peep hole sights with lateral and vertical adjustment for wind and distance accuracy. Forget scopes...., red dot is garbage. Your rifle is only as good as your instinct.

I've already got all the close range stuff I want or need. I don't really think taking a thousand yard shooter and handicapping it down to 300-400 yards is a good idea. Quite aside from being a waste of 2 grand, what do I need with a fourth CQB weapon and still have zero long range capability?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

.308 is designed for hunting.

30-ought 6 is designed to have a trajectory that tumbles slightly down so that you can hit a target over a hill without having to fully see it...if you know what to do

Both the .30-06 and the .308 were designed for war. The .30-06 was designed for WW1 and the .308 was designed in the aftermath of WW2. As in, a bunch of engineers got together and said we need a new rifle to kill enemies with, and they designed this cartridges. Hunting wasn't even a part of the calculus for either cartridge. And the .30-06 has pretty much precisely the exact same ballistics as the .308 since the people who designed the .308 successfully attempted to make a round that performs identically to the .30-06 but in a shorter casing.

Since then, modern gunpowder technology has led to a small increase in .30-06 power and thus muzzle velocity, and therefore the round shoots flatter than the .308 unless you go 180grain or more.

And every bullet on earth has a ballistic trajectory.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I've heard that those ATNs lack ruggedness.

You will definitely want a first focal plane scope for any sort of tactical/combat applications. Make sure it is MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL, no combination of the two that you may senselessly find on some scopes. I suggest a 50mm or 56mm objective lens. 12x magnification is enough to get you to 1000m, but higher magnification will allow you to better gauge mirage, bullet tracing, etc. You will also pay for higher magnification of the same quality. At high magnification, it is paramount to have high quality glass, otherwise you will simply be magnifying artifacts and distortions. I can provide more suggestions if you would like, but I hope this guides you in the right direction.

Thanks, yeah, the ruggedness was pretty much my primary concern. The main reason I was attracted to it was the low entry barrier for night vision, without needing a second scope for daytime.

I'm already familiar enough not to mix mils and moa, talk about a zeroing drop and windage nightmare! I'm thoroughly familiar with how MOA works, and all my ballistics calculators return MOA so I'm definitely looking MOA.

i also know the effect that a large objective lens has on light collection, and was thinking that 50mm or larger was my target range for glass, albeit that usually puts them into the expensive category.

I suppose when it comes to glass, beyond clarity one of the things I am looking for is the reticle to zoom too, so the MOA dots are accurate.

 

[TheTexan]

I've known you have been wanting one since forever.

So...can I ask what you got it for?

Target shooting I would presume

 

[youngbuck]

I suppose when it comes to glass, beyond clarity one of the things I am looking for is the reticle to zoom too, so the MOA dots are accurate.

This is one of the reasons to get a first focal plane scope, instead of the much more common second focal plane scopes used for hunting, etc.

 

[bunklocoempire]

I can't say much about higher end scopes, but....

Fucking congratulations on the LMT308MWS!!!

This.

LMT308MWS is the club I want to join. Way to go.

 

[Bryan]

I am not an expert, but the experts that I have listened to say the scope you want is a NightForce -- they are expensive (about $1,700+) but you get what you pay for. Optics are first rate, the scopes are really durable and hold their zero. Reports are you can take the scope off, beat someone over the head with it and it will still hold its zero.

Worth looking into...

 

[presence]

I'd spend some time in the optics subforum at longrangehunting here:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/

They also have a very healthy marketplace:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f40/


Also some keywords to look into:

Nightforce
Leupold
Zeiss
US Optics
Vortex
USO
Sightron
Huskemaw
IOR
Badger Base
Schmidt & Bender
Swarovski
Trijicon
Meopta
Khales
ATACR
Steiner
Xtreme Spotting
Bushnell Elite
Weaver Tactical
Burris
Murphy Precision
Swaro
SWFA-HD

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I can verify that this thing totally lives up to it's reputation. I haven't picked a scope yet, so this is on irons at 100yd

Groups should have been smaller, but by glasses kept fogging up in the super hot humidity. When I put a legit optic on this thing, the groups will get significantly smaller. With quality glass I should be under an inch at 100 yd. This rifle is ridiculously insane. I can't wait to decide on an optic to mount on it.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I'd spend some time in the optics subforum at longrangehunting here:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/

They also have a very healthy marketplace:

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f40/


Also some keywords to look into:

Nightforce
Leupold
Zeiss
US Optics
Vortex
USO
Sightron
Huskemaw
IOR
Badger Base
Schmidt & Bender
Swarovski
Trijicon
Meopta
Khales
ATACR
Steiner
Xtreme Spotting
Bushnell Elite
Weaver Tactical
Burris
Murphy Precision
Swaro
SWFA-HD

Aye, I know Leupold was the king of scopes from the early 1960's through the early 2000's when they started getting real competition. Now, from what I understand every couple of years or so another brand dominates the ranks of competition shooters for a while and then another brand for another couple years and so on. I believe that free market competition has managed to improve the quality of ALL scopes as they vie for top ranking deployments for long range competitive shooters. From what I understand, Nightforce is dominating competitive shooting in 2016.

 

[Uriel999]

Welcome to the club!

I bought mine right after boot camp in 2011. Mine doesn't have the stainless barrel as I went with the chrome lines.

Granted I also put on eotech on it instead of long range optics... I wanted a close up barrier blind rifle.

You might want the luepold mk8.

I'd go with a first focal plane long range optic if I was you regardless if you want range.

Atn isn't that great and if shy away from digital stuff until you are talking nods. You could just join the night vision and thermal club!

Get an IR Hunter from IRD on the tnvc website and have some sweet thermal.

 

[Pericles]

Can't really give advice as I don't own one, and my optics are limited to Trijicons as I know that EOTech just didn't do it for me.

 

[osan]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

OK Gunny, firstly I will state that electronics take a fairly distant back seat to good optics. If this will be a primary weapon, I would go for pure optics and no electronics, unless the primary role of the weapon is night work.

There is a lot of good glass out there. Zeiss are perhaps tops from the pure optics standpoint. Their scopes tend to be less fancy. So long as one can put lead on target that is not an issue for me.

Night Force makes very fine optics, though not inexpensive. Oddly, I have a very plain Nikon on my M1A, and it is holding < 1/2 MOA @ 100 in an un-bedded gun with NM barrel and good trigger.

US Optics makes very good, but hellishly expensive glass. I do rue my decision to turn down their offer for an SN/9 for $4K. These are no longer made, AFAIK, and were very impressive with either an 80 or 100mm objective. Sight is a bit high over the bore-line, but the long distance advantages were high. No idea why they stopped making them.

As for your rifle, the AR10 may soon become a true 1000 yard gun when I finish my triggers for them. I have two designs on the board, each with its advantages, both with very low lock times. I hope to have the prototypes completed shortly.

 

[Intoxiklown]

Aye, I know Leupold was the king of scopes from the early 1960's through the early 2000's when they started getting real competition. Now, from what I understand every couple of years or so another brand dominates the ranks of competition shooters for a while and then another brand for another couple years and so on. I believe that free market competition has managed to improve the quality of ALL scopes as they vie for top ranking deployments for long range competitive shooters. From what I understand, Nightforce is dominating competitive shooting in 2016.

If you're ever in the south Alabama area, let me know. My father in law has a range for long distance shooting (about 1700 yards total), and I'd love to fire that weapon. Also, I'd be curious to see how much variance there was with shot groups compared to my Sig 716. Not saying one is better than the other, but rather that would be the ultimate standard to see how my 716 measured.