Response to Chuck Baldwin’s article regarding “Open Gays In The Military”

[LibertyPulse.com]

Response to Chuck Baldwin’s article regarding “Open Gays In The Military”

Saturday, I received a thought provoking email from a reader of Liberty Pulse about a Chuck Baldwin article we posted. The response offered compelling points and I asked him if we could post his email on our blog, he graciously agreed…

Greetings,

As an avid reader of your site, I sincerely appreciate all that you do and the goals you aim to accomplish. Those goals match my own, and the aggregation of freedom-minded publications is a laudable and necessary step in further educating the people and providing supporters of freedom with content they may otherwise miss.

Liberty Pulse recently posted an article by Chuck Baldwin (http://libertypulse.com/article/5039) decrying the potential loss of the military’s ability to “out” homosexuals (”sodomites,” Dr. Baldwin writes, “that they discover among the troops”). The position and argument from the article is in favor of maintaining the state’s “right” to intrude upon the private life of an individual, and subsequently punish that individual for what it finds! This is the absolute antithesis of liberty!

The notions contained within the article advocate the intolerance of those with differences from the majority, and that somehow by insuring liberty for one individual it negatively impacts those of any other person. This is wholly untrue, and I am at odds as to how this in any way benefits arguments in favor of individual liberty.

It it upsetting that the liberty movement could...

http://libertypulse.com/blog/2010/0...-article-regarding-open-gays-in-the-military/

 

[Vessol]

I'm of likemind with you Libertypulse. It's always been a bit disheartening when so many pro-liberty people I know then go on about homosexuals deserving less rights.

I like Ron Paul's approach, which is an approach of punishing any sexual "deviance"(whether it be hetero or homo sexual) in which the lives of their comrades or what-not or put in danger or well, I can't find the exact quote RP says.

 

[silus]

Usually if I want advice on how something would affect the military I would ask someone who has served. Not this chump.

 

[emazur]

Third, if outspoken members of the “liberty movement” start making loud claims against individuals in some perceived “group” being allowed to live freely while infringing upon no other persons, how soon will that “group” go from being “gays” to people with any other combination of personal attributes?

Quite soon actually. You should see Baldwin's take on Muslims:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2002/cbarchive_20020201.html

The Muslim religion has been a bloody, murderous religion since its inception. Mohammed built the Islamic faith on violence, coercion, and intimidation. Contrary to Bush's claim, the Koran is anything but "holy." In fact, it is among the most unholy books ever written. It blatantly and repeatedly calls for the slaughter of non-Muslim people. The Koran also encourages terrorism and plunder. Christians and Jews are specifically targeted for discrimination in the Koran. Furthermore, only communism rivals Islam in sheer numbers of people persecuted and killed.

 

[micahnelson]

And here is where we see who has valid concerns about the restriction of individual liberties, and who is a crusty old white guy who is upset that Ellen is allowed to be on American Idol, people are speaking spanish at fast food joints, and not everyone prays to Jesus.

Liberty for all, or eventually for none.

 

[BlackTerrel]

Usually if I want advice on how something would affect the military I would ask someone who has served. Not this chump.

Ditto.

I'm of likemind with you Libertypulse. It's always been a bit disheartening when so many pro-liberty people I know then go on about homosexuals deserving less rights.

Perhaps it isn't about rights so much as it affects the military's ability to do its job.

 

[micahnelson]

Perhaps it isn't about rights so much as it affects the military's ability to do its job.

If it was going to effect the military's ability to do its job, then there should be some debate.

However, with the Romans and the Greeks being two of the most effective military powers in western history- I think the better question is how can we be victorious without homosexuality in the ranks.

 

[specsaregood]

Perhaps it isn't about rights so much as it affects the military's ability to do its job.

On that note, we are gonna have to start accepting gays into the military. The straight kids today aren't in good enough physical condition to make it in.

 

[Vessol]

Perhaps it isn't about rights so much as it affects the military's ability to do its job.

They said the same about blacks being in the same units as whites too /shrug.

I don't see how this could effect their ability to do their job unless you mean "I feel uncomfortable about working near a homo". If so, then a lot of people feel uncomfortable working around a lot of other different people. Might as well ban everybody from the military. Sounds good to me actually.

 

[nate895]

Quite soon actually. You should see Baldwin's take on Muslims:
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2002/cbarchive_20020201.html

If you would actually open a Qur'an, you'd see that Pastor Baldwin's statements are correct.

Yusuf Ali Translation

2:98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

5:38 Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).

39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

 

[Vessol]

And the Bible is any different?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


NOTE: I don't think Christainity is evil or wrong, nor Christians. I'm just pointing out that the Qu'ran is not the only book with violent rules.

 

[dannno]

Most gay people aren't sodomites.

A lot of straight people are sodomites.

Chuck Baldwin unfortunately has a misguided view of gay people, it's like everything he knows about gay people he read in the Bible

Otherwise Chuck is a pretty great guy.

 

[1000-points-of-fright]

On that note, we are gonna have to start accepting gays into the military. The straight kids today aren't in good enough physical condition to make it in.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... all gay servicemen and women should immediately out themselves forcing the military to discharge them. Then they'll see just how much they need gays. Heteros who are sick of being stop-lossed should also do something gay.

With two wars and various other "actions" going on, how much you wanna bet they just repeal DADT.

 

[silus]

And the Bible is any different?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


NOTE: I don't think Christainity is evil or wrong, nor Christians. I'm just pointing out that the Qu'ran is not the only book with violent rules.

Touche!

 

[AggieforPaul]

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

haha, holy shit.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785

 

[Pete_00]

Funny how such a decision from a government that everyone here regards as corrupted suddently becomes fine.

People learn nothing from History, you dont need the Bible, all you need is History books. "Butch"-homosexuals (woman-hating hyper-masculine obsessed with all things "warrior") are attracted to military institutions like bees are attracted to honey. Someone mentioned the Greeks and the Romans...when their military started to go homosexual, with time, it became an all homosexual institution, heteros were not allowed period. Homosexuality is all about recruiting and not reproducing this is the key. And with their homosexuality came hyper-militarism and violence, anciente Greece and the Roman Empire were most violent and warmongering during this period of homosexuality and irreversible decadence...Hitler´s mentor, Ernst Rohm, was a proud "butch"-homosexual and his SA (Brown Shirts) were famous for their homosexuality and violence...People learn nothing from History...

When you get such a military serving a corrupted evil government you have nothing but severe problems...people learn nothing from History.

You are for Liberty? OK, no more military only militias how about that?

 

[Pete_00]

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

haha, holy shit.

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=16785

Classic...if you want to bash the Bible do it properly, at least learn the most basic principles. That is the Old Testament...Old Covenant

 

[nate895]

And the Bible is any different?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


NOTE: I don't think Christainity is evil or wrong, nor Christians. I'm just pointing out that the Qu'ran is not the only book with violent rules.

I am not opposed to the violence necessarily, I am talking about specific commands to make physical war on the infidels perpetually and to convert them by the sword, as indicated most clearly in the last two verses I cited.

P.S. For future reference, the New Living Translation (NLT) is not a very scholarly translation and misses the point on a lot of passages, not that that would change your point.

 

[nate895]

Classic...if you want to bash the Bible do it properly, at least learn the most basic principles. That is the Old Testament...Old Covenant

So what, God was wrong in the Old Covenant and then got it right in the New Covenant. The Lord said in Matthew 5:18:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

 

[silus]

Funny how such a decision from a government that everyone here regards as corrupted suddently becomes fine.

People learn nothing from History, you dont need the Bible, all you need is History books. "Butch"-homosexuals (woman-hating hyper-masculine obsessed with all things "warrior") are attracted to military institutions like bees are attracted to honey. Someone mentioned the Greeks and the Romans...when their military started to go homosexual, with time, it became an all homosexual institution, heteros were not allowed period. Homosexuality is all about recruiting and not reproducing this is the key. And with their homosexuality came hyper-militarism and violence, anciente Greece and the Roman Empire were most violent and warmongering during this period of homosexuality and irreversible decadence...Hitler´s mentor, Ernst Rohm, was a proud "butch"-homosexual and his SA (Brown Shirts) were famous for their homosexuality and violence...People learn nothing from History...

When you get such a military serving a corrupted evil government you have nothing but severe problems...people learn nothing from History.

You are for Liberty? OK, no more military only militias how about that?

I'm not sure how to even begin a discussion with you. But to start off, get off your high horse on people learning nothing from history. There is nothing in your post that would convince any reasonable person that you are correct. If you want to even learn how to use history correctly you might want to start acknowledging the difference in context: an argument on why what occurred in your example could develop here in the states. That was only the most important part of making your argument, but instead you passed go and went straight to the "you don't know shit about history." Tones.

Classic...if you want to bash the Bible do it properly, at least learn the most basic principles. That is the Old Testament...Old Covenant

The problem for Muslims is they don't have a sweet line like that to use when accused of teaching violence.