Regarding Silver

[Kharan]

Honestly was thinking about ordering some of these,
http://www.apmex.com/Product/55208/1_oz_Sunshine_Minting_Silver_Round_999_Fine_.aspx

Seem like a generic mint brand, one ounce comes to like 32-33 or so, maybe get 10-20 of those. Everything else I've scouted (singles, bars, ebay, etc) seems to round out to 34,35,36 or whatever depending on the brand. If i just want silver is this the ticket? OR should I get a government issue like Canada maple for a premium?

 

[RipperNT]

Would it (does it I guess) really come out less to buy 100 singles as opposed to a single bar? Hmm..

Ampex shipping doesn't seem that bad if your order is several hundred dollars, assuming you do the wire and not the card. I am really looking in the realm of 5-10 oz acquisition at a time, but I suppose I could do more if it made sense. I am open to coins, bars, junk silver, whatever. I would like more in my collection of junk silver, but these others are of interest to me. I have a couple 1OZ silver plates and coins, but that's the extent.

-
As a side note, do any of you invest in gold? If so, how do you go about that from a non wealthy perspective? Fractions of ounces? etc.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/156/Generic_Silver_999_Fine___As_low_as_099_per_oz_over_spot.aspx - .99 over spot bars
http://www.apmex.com/Product/23/1_oz_Silver_Round___Mint_Varies___999_Fine.aspx - rounds

Another cool thing about APMEX is that there is a trigger option that will send you a text if it hits a certain price. It sent me one when it hit 27 and pretty much unloaded right then and there if you don't watch the price everyday.

I unloaded all my gold, which was 3 ounces, and bought Silver. I follow Jim Rogers allot and think that Gold will correct and if it gets back to 1300 i'll try and buy back in, but I don't think anything is going to happen in 2012 as money is going to be pumped in every facet because there are elections and think that Gold will go much lower. Think that more people will go back into Stocks etc this year especially since the S and P has started out so well in 2012 and gold will correct itself even lower. I buy GLD ETF but i'm sure most people here will advise against it but that is my Gold investment as I can't put 1500 + into a coin very often.

 

[Kharan]

http://www.apmex.com/Product/23/1_oz_Silver_Round___Mint_Varies___999_Fine.aspx - rounds

Appreciate -everyone's- comments. One thing though, instead of going to this link and getting random mint for price listed, these :

http://www.apmex.com/Product/55208/1_oz_Sunshine_Minting_Silver_Round_999_Fine_.aspx

Sunshine rounds are about a dollar cheaper than the "random lot" you linked and may contain some of them. Is there any reason I wouldn't want that over the ones you linked since they're cheaper? I kind of like the idea of getting some random bars though, just to see what comes in the bag as far as design and whatnot. Nothing special or it wouldn't be in that pile, but still might pique my interest for a moment to add a spark to acquisition from time to time.

 

[davidpdx]

-Although many will probably rip on me for suggesting it, buying a silver or gold/silver stock that actually holds physical metals (like PHYS, CEF,etc. . . and not GLD or SLV) [...]

I'm just curious, but if you're going to buy a gold stock instead of physical gold, why is PHYS better than GLD? GLD does a better job of tracking the price of gold. PHYS is a closed-end fund, so you pay a premium (today just under 5%, but it's been as high as 23%) over and above the spot price of gold for the gold held by the fund. The trading volume is extremely low, so liquidity might be an issue. The bid and ask yesterday at the close were 13.49 and 15.03 respectively, which is a huge spread of more than 10%. For comparison the bid and ask on GLD are within a few pennies, less than a tenth of a percent.

With PHYS you can theoretically redeem the shares for physical gold, but the timing of redemption is restricted (one day per month), there are a lot of fees and expenses that are not spelled out very clearly in the prospectus, and the minimum redeemable quantity is one bar, which means 350 ounces or more. The one plus for PHYS that I can find might be the tax treatment of gains, compared to GLD or bullion.

I'm curious because I own physical gold but also some shares of GLD in an IRA. My feeling is that if you're not going to hold physical gold personally then you might as well go for the lowest overhead cost. But I'm open to other ideas.

 

[pmbug]

Folks considering GLD should read this: https://goldsilver.com/new/d-day-near-for-gld/

 

[Len Larson]

Great tool, but none of my nickels are prior to 65 in that bucket, aall the coins pre 65 are screened out by me before entering the change jar. Thanks for the link!

I went to a dealer today, but they wanted 45 a piece for silver rounds and I said no thanks.....

Actually, what I was pointing out is that even newly minted nickels (2012) have a melt value which is greater than their face value.
Obviously, you're not going to get rich holding nickels, but nickels are still real money and won't devalue like fiat coins.
So you might want to keep them.

 

[Badger for Paul]

There are plenty of concerns that GLD and SLV don't actually hold physical gold and silver, or at least not nearly as much as they represent that they have. If I'm going to use the stock market as a way to hold Gold or Silver, I would like to know that the fund actually has physical gold and silver. The discussion on these forums and on the internet about physical gold and silver as opposed to virtual gold and silver (ie GLD and SLV) essentially comes down to whether you trust financial firms claims that they have the precious metals they claim to have or not.
Personally, I've used CEF for my precious metals exposure in accounts that can't, at least economically, hold physical metals like my retirement account.
Anyway, it doesn't take much google searching to see the questions people have about whether GLD and SLV are backed by anything other than promises and derivatives. That's why I would favor CEF or one of the Sprott closed funds that holds physical gold/silver, because of security if there ever was a significant breakdown in the financial markets or derivatives markets. As long as the market is orderly, GLD and SLV work just fine because you can always find someone to sell to.

 

[davidpdx]

Best option for gold investment in IRA

Folks considering GLD should read this: https://goldsilver.com/new/d-day-near-for-gld/

I'm only interested in this issue regarding IRA money, so the tax treatment on sales is not a factor and options are limited. And obviously anyone who doesn't know how ETFs work probably shouldn't buy GLD (or ETFs in general). And anyone who thinks that buying GLD serves the same purpose as buying physical gold is probably not well advised to buy GLD.

But with that in mind, is there anything in this article that's really surprising? He tries to make it sound like this "D-Day" [which was a year ago] is a big deal, but other ETFs also waive a portion of the fees during some initial period. You can look at the prospectus for SPY, the S&P 500 index from the same company as GLD, and find the same language there for the initial period after its inception, and I've seen it for plenty of other funds as well.

The point about the holdings being diluted more and more over time is a completely valid point, but it's completely unsurprising given how ETFs work. The trust expenses are going to have to be paid somehow. You couldn't have a gold ETF that didn't have expenses, or any ETF that didn't have expenses for that matter, so you wouldn't be buying an ETF if you didn't think it would increase enough over your holding period to make up for the expenses. In an ETF they'll sell assets, whether those assets are gold or stocks or whatever.

If you hold gold in an IRA you'll pay a custodial fee. My broker (Fidelity, via Fidelitrade) would charge 0.5% per year. The one Tulving uses charges 0.8% per year.

BTW, the closed-end fund PHYS does the same thing, selling bullion to pay expenses, and the prospectus has similar boilerplate language about how the sale of bullion to pay expenses might be made at a time that's not advantageous to shareholders. They also initially sold $10 shares representing $9.50 worth of gold, and then you also have to consider the premium to NAV, currently around 10%, that you pay, and the bid/ask spread is also around 10%, so there are even more ways that trading PHYS eats up your investment.

Again, I'm not advocating buying GLD as a substitute for holding physical gold. But if anyone has better ideas for precious metal investments in IRAs (or for that matter, other commodities or hedges against a weak dollar) I'd love to hear them.

All of this is secondary to the question of whether there's any reason to own GLD or other gold-related investments (including gold in an IRA where you can't

 

[Kharan]

Actually, what I was pointing out is that even newly minted nickels (2012) have a melt value which is greater than their face value.
Obviously, you're not going to get rich holding nickels, but nickels are still real money and won't devalue like fiat coins.
So you might want to keep them.

Wasn't aware of this, thanks!

 

[pmbug]

... "D-Day" [which was a year ago] ...

It was just over two months ago.

Whether or not it's a big deal depends in part on what your goal is in investing in the product. YMMV.

 

[davidpdx]

Anyway, it doesn't take much google searching to see the questions people have about whether GLD and SLV are backed by anything other than promises and derivatives. That's why I would favor CEF or one of the Sprott closed funds that holds physical gold/silver, because of security if there ever was a significant breakdown in the financial markets or derivatives markets. As long as the market is orderly, GLD and SLV work just fine because you can always find someone to sell to.

Thanks for the comment. I agree that GLD and SLV work fine (and have low associated costs) if the market is orderly. In any sort of situation in which the market ceases to be orderly I wouldn't have much expectation from those funds or any others.

In any situation in which the markets aren't orderly it seems to me that a self-directed IRA holding physical gold and/or silver is superior to a closed-end fund. Even ignoring higher expenses and higher bid/ask spreads, if you had to sell in a time of financial crisis finding buyers might be difficult, which means that if you can sell shares at all you may end up selling at a discount to NAV in order to find a buyer. That would be after paying a premium to NAV when you bought it. A market that would let you sell shares in a closed-end fund is probably functional enough to let you sell physical gold held in your name at a depository in a self-directed IRA, and selling physical gold is going to be a lot easier than selling shares in a mutual fund.

On the other hand, I tend to think that anything owned electronically is not likely to be accessible in a real financial crisis, so I'm not sure I want to pay the higher costs involved. The only really safe thing to do with IRA money as a hedge against the collapse of the dollar would be to cash out the IRA, pay any penalties, and use the money to buy physical gold and silver. I'm pessimistic but not THAT pessimistic!

Thanks for the discussion, it's given me a lot to think about.

 

[davidpdx]

It was just over two months ago.

Whether or not it's a big deal depends in part on what your goal is in investing in the product. YMMV.

Oops, you're right, I thought it was February. I was comparing GLD to other funds that have a similar temporary cap on expenses and got the dates confused.