Reason Magazine supports forced vaccinations; "no libertarian case for vaccine refusal"

[donnay]

Do you people not know how to Google? When I have questions like that, I usually go look the answer up so that I won't look totally uninformed and illogical before I start spouting off.

To answer them: Mostly not. Because they traced the disease back to Patient 0. Yes. No, the patients that died were infants too young to have the vaccine.

Patient Zero? This one?

Patient Zero: Yet Another Flu Virus Crosses The Species Barrier

A 73 year old woman has been identified as patient zero, as yet another avian flu virus that has not previously infected humans, jumps the species barrier.


The professor, Chen Ze, of the Shanghai Institute of Biological Products, a research arm of a state-owned pharmaceutical firm, said H10N8, which was previously found in wild birds, had mutated to infect humans.

“There is a chance of more cases of human infection in the future,” said Chen, who in April warned of the threats from H10N8 and H6N6 amid the initial spread of human H7N9 cases.

Chen and his team isolated the H10N8 virus from the Dongting Lake wetland in 2007. Tests on mice found that the virus easily infected mammals.

“Our findings showed the virus was capable of infecting humans, and it has the capability of mammal-to-mammal transmission, but whether there is going to be human-to-human transmission is hard to tell at the moment,” said Chen.

He said the case for closing live poultry markets on the mainland had become stronger, at least in flu season, to reduce risks.

The woman who died in Jiangxi was 73 years old. She was admitted to hospital on November 30 with severe pneumonia and died on December 6. (source)

The number of influenza viruses moving from animals to humans is increasing. The worry for scientists and doctors is that an infection new to humans will combine in a patient with normal seasonal flu and their genetic material will mix. It’s this genetic reassortment that gives novel viruses their transmission ability.

Many viruses are not overly virulent, but because it’s new to the human population there is no immunity at all and that causes the illness to be more severe than a regular bout of flu. Those who are debilitated or immunosuppressed, and the very young often suffer higher serious illness and fatality rates than the population at large.

If a particularly virulent virus, like the strain of H1N1 that caused the 1918-1920 pandemic, the death toll can be in the tens of millions. Our second visitation of H1N1 was not so severe. Even though the viruses were not totally identical they were both of the same strain. Those who lived through the 1918-1920 pandemic had passed on some conferred immunity to their descendants.

The worst combination, as the 1918-1920 pandemic proved, is a new virus that is virulent combining with seasonal flu, which then spreads through the population.
- See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/pati...e-species-barrier_122013#sthash.QFKLKOZo.dpuf

 

[familydog]

I am not the authoritarian. I am still, perhaps pathetically, the most naive freedom lover here, believing that an educated population will make the correct choices when said choices benefit both themselves and society at large.

You may want to clarify your statement. It's too broad to refer simply to violence-backed vaccinations. The truly educated are those who believe they know very little. Should people get vaccinated? I don't know. That's a decision that they need to make based on their health history, living conditions and preferences. I can't possibly know what is best for billions of people. Honestly, neither do you. If you don't want to get sick and you feel that vaccination is in your best interest, then more power to you.

 

[angelatc]

I actually agree with Singer's position. http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/vaccination-and-free-choice

And I will sacrifice dead kids for freedom. No problem with that at all. The problem, as Amy always states far better than I do, is that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't feel that way. Even the Libertarians support the state swooping to remove kids from homes where the parents choose alternative medical treatments, and the hardcore anarchists support taking kids away from parents who spank them.

Allowing crazy people not to vax is certainly the freedom choice. Just like driving without seatbelts, or without car seats, smoking while pregnant, or even eating GMO foods.

But if Libertarianism is to ever gain a significant foothold, authoritarianism has to be replaced with education. People have to have the tools to make good choices for themselves, and we just aren't there.

 

[angelatc]

I can't possibly know what is best for billions of people.

Then educate yourself and look at the overwhelming evidence to form an opinion. If you don't, someone else will.

http://education-portal.com/articles/10_Universities_Offering_Free_Science_Courses_Online.html

Lots of introductory science classes, for free. Some of them even give college credit.

 

[angelatc]

Patient Zero? This one?

"No Donna, we were talking about measles," she said, with the tolerant patience one would use with a small child.

 

[Anti Federalist]

I don't think anybody is pushing to punish people who aren't vaxxed until after the disease spreads.

While it's technically illegal to drive around with bad brakes, I promise you that if you drive around in a car with bad brakes and end up hurting or killing someone, they have a case against you for far more than they would for just a routine accident.

OK, so you are at least admitting that punishment for non vaccination is on the table.

What kind of punishments, what level of proof is required, and why would you not start to punish preemptively?

We punish preemptively for everything else.

And if non vaccination is a punishable offense, isn't every other health issue that can even remotely be related to a person's choices?

Certainly buggery should be a punishable offense, no?

 

[moostraks]

I actually agree with Singer's position. http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/vaccination-and-free-choice

And I will sacrifice dead kids for freedom. No problem with that at all. The problem, as Amy always states far better than I do, is that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't feel that way. Even the Libertarians support the state swooping to remove kids from homes where the parents choose alternative medical treatments, and the hardcore anarchists support taking kids away from parents who spank them.

Allowing crazy people not to vax is certainly the freedom choice. Just like driving without seatbelts, or without car seats, smoking while pregnant, or even eating GMO foods.

But if Libertarianism is to ever gain a significant foothold, authoritarianism has to be replaced with education. People have to have the tools to make good choices for themselves, and we just aren't there.

Would be nice if the vaccine side effects would be treated as such rather than dismissed offhand for almost any reason other than vaccines so that people can be educated and have the tools to make the choices for themselves.

 

[Anti Federalist]

I actually agree with Singer's position. http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/vaccination-and-free-choice

And I will sacrifice dead kids for freedom. No problem with that at all. The problem, as Amy always states far better than I do, is that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't feel that way. Even the Libertarians support the state swooping to remove kids from homes where the parents choose alternative medical treatments, and the hardcore anarchists support taking kids away from parents who spank them.

Allowing crazy people not to vax is certainly the freedom choice. Just like driving without seatbelts, or without car seats, smoking while pregnant, or even eating GMO foods.

But if Libertarianism is to ever gain a significant foothold, authoritarianism has to be replaced with education. People have to have the tools to make good choices for themselves, and we just aren't there.

Can't disagree with that.

To make good choices, one must have all the alternatives presented, and the potential of coercive violence removed.

 

[angelatc]

OK, so you are at least admitting that punishment for non vaccinations are on the table.

Of course they're on the table. I'm just not the one who put them there. Again, Amy says this better than I do, but letting the anti-vax movement gain steam only serves to provide a tool for the government to start requiring vaccines.

Obamacare, digitized medical records...it isn't hard to imagine that any visit to the pharmacist or the school nurse will result in them requiring you get your vaccine before you can get whatever else it was you actually needed.

Heck, if that's what i wanted to happen, I'd start putting out a bunch of garbage pandering to the low info voter, telling them that vaccines are dangerous and having them tell all their friends. Then I'd let loose a couple of measles infections in the unvaccinated poulations, and then push legislation through on the backs of those dead babies.

That's how it always happens. Insisting it shouldn't happen that way doesn't mean it won't happen that way. Because it will, and you know it as well as I do.

 

[donnay]

East Texas death attributed to H1N1 virus

.

So you think the flu vaccine will stop this? It was reported that the one man went to the hospital for flu-like symptoms and they gave him medicine and the next thing you know he was on life support and died. Hmm...

 

[angelatc]

Would be nice if the vaccine side effects would be treated as such rather than dismissed offhand for almost any reason other than vaccines so that people can be educated and have the tools to make the choices for themselves.

This is exactly what I am talking about.

Nobody dismisses them "offhand." The evidence overwhelming indicates that the odds of serious side effects from vaccines is .0000006, if I remember correctly. If you take the flu vaccine out of the equation, it's even less. And the side effects are so rare, they're not even sure that those side effects are actually from the vaccine. That's a liberal estimate.

The odds of being left with a serious side effect from getting the actual diseases are far worse. For example, 1 in 1,000 kids who get measles dies from it.

About one out of 10 children with measles also gets an ear infection, and up to one out of 20 gets pneumonia. About one out of 1,000 gets encephalitis, and one or two out of 1,000 die

http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

More kids would get encephalitis from measles than would get it as an allergic reaction to the vaccine.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Of course they're on the table. I'm just not the one who put them there. Again, Amy says this better than I do, but letting the anti-vax movement gain steam only serves to provide a tool for the government to start requiring vaccines.

Obamacare, digitized medical records...it isn't hard to imagine that any visit to the pharmacist or the school nurse will result in them requiring you get your vaccine before you can get whatever else it was you actually needed.

Heck, if that's what i wanted to happen, I'd start putting out a bunch of garbage pandering to the low info voter, telling them that vaccines are dangerous and having them tell all their friends. Then I'd let loose a couple of measles infections in the unvaccinated poulations, and then push legislation through on the backs of those dead babies.

That's how it always happens. Insisting it shouldn't happen that way doesn't mean it won't happen that way. Because it will, and you know it as well as I do.

OK, I see where you're coming from now.

 

[angelatc]

OK, I see where you're coming from now.

When all hell breaks loose, I'd still rather have 1,000 unvaxxed guys like you on my side than 10,000 Pajama Boys. It's all perspective.

 

[moostraks]

This is exactly what I am talking about.

Nobody dismisses them "offhand." The evidence overwhelming indicates that the odds of serious side effects from vaccines is .0000006, if I remember correctly. If you take the flu vaccine out of the equation, it's even less. And the side effects are so rare, they're not even sure that those side effects are actually from the vaccine. That's a liberal estimate.

The odds of being left with a serious side effect from getting the actual diseases are far worse. For example, 1 in 1,000 kids who get measles dies from it. http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

More kids would get encephalitis from measles than would get it as an allergic reaction to the vaccine.

The problem I have with your position is your belief that the statistics you provided are valid and credible. The adverse reactions are not being handled in a manner that provides an accurate picture of the damages caused by the vaccines.

 

[angelatc]

The adverse reactions are not being handled in a manner that provides an accurate picture of the damages caused by the vaccines.

I am always open to looking at evidence.

 

[Ender]

Bullcrap!Most of the "pro-vaxxers" here have explicitly said that you should have the liberty to vaccinate or not vaccinate your children.

I know for a fact that I and Angelatc have stated this EXPLICITLY!Your entire post is a pile of horsecrap lies.

I have smoked cigarettes non-stop for 47+ years and over two packs a day for more than the last 30.
If anybody bothered to ask me my opinion,I would tell them to never smoke cigarettes.

Does this mean that I think smokers should be tortured and thrown in to prison and have their eyes gouged out with rusty spoons?

What the hell do you think!??!!
Sheesh!

And you took this personally because...........?

 

[Ender]

I am always open to looking at evidence.

That's good.

Maybe if you would stop with the name calling and personal innuendoes, a real conversation might evolve.

 

[moostraks]

Of course they're on the table. I'm just not the one who put them there. Again, Amy says this better than I do, but letting the anti-vax movement gain steam only serves to provide a tool for the government to start requiring vaccines.

Obamacare, digitized medical records...it isn't hard to imagine that any visit to the pharmacist or the school nurse will result in them requiring you get your vaccine before you can get whatever else it was you actually needed.

Heck, if that's what i wanted to happen, I'd start putting out a bunch of garbage pandering to the low info voter, telling them that vaccines are dangerous and having them tell all their friends. Then I'd let loose a couple of measles infections in the unvaccinated poulations, and then push legislation through on the backs of those dead babies.

That's how it always happens. Insisting it shouldn't happen that way doesn't mean it won't happen that way. Because it will, and you know it as well as I do.

I agree with your assessment regarding the push for mandatory vaccines. I also believe that the very people willing to let loose the disease are the ones seeking to profit from the vaccines. (Read that as not all medical folks are corrupt but a certain group is completely morally bankrupt and behind this sort of an agenda) Sort of like the fact that certain insurance agencies backed Obamacare with a belief they will be winners in the end as providers for state care at a profit.

Now the problem is that your experience with vaccines has been favorable while others have not been so lucky. So you are dismissing as negligible the side effects because you have not suffered and you wish to excoriate anyone who disagrees with you as being an idiot when their mileage varies and they may have very credible reasons for not wanting the vaccines. It isn't stupidity that drives people to not want to inject foreign matter into their children which has a side effect of death or crippling disabilities. People are weighing their odds right now and are aware of the under reporting of vaccine side effects which makes them even more hesitant to take that gamble.

Like self censorship, vaccinating because one fears they will be forced to vaccinate achieves the end goal of giving into to the tyrant rather than making a rational choice. Running around demanding self censorship for the sake of preserving liberty seems counter intuitive to me but what do I know? Once total compliance is achieved then I shudder to think what type of things they will be able to inject us with for our own good and the good of the community. I would rather fight to expose them for the shady corporatists they are than to give value to a hypothetical situation that can be eliminated by shedding light on those with a negative agenda.

 

[angelatc]

I agree with your assessment regarding the push for mandatory vaccines. I also believe that the very people willing to let loose the disease are the ones seeking to profit from the vaccines. (Read that as not all medical folks are corrupt but a certain group is completely morally bankrupt and behind this sort of an agenda) Sort of like the fact that certain insurance agencies backed Obamacare with a belief they will be winners in the end as providers for state care at a profit.

Excluding the newer vaccines, there's very little profit in vaccines because the patents have all worn off. If you think about it, it would be far more lucrative to treat the actual illnesses than to prevent them.

Now the problem is that your experience with vaccines has been favorable while others have not been so lucky. So you are dismissing as negligible the side effects because you have not suffered and you wish to excoriate anyone who disagrees with you as being an idiot when their mileage varies and they may have very credible reasons for not wanting the vaccines.

No, that's not true. I am not resorting to anecdotal evidence to support my position, not in the least. That's the tool of the anti-vaxxers, and one of my pet peeves. I'm not an expert in scientific method, but observation is only one component of it.

For example, someone here once angrily told me that just because I don't know anybody that experienced any adverse reactions to vaccines doesn't explain why she knows several. My guess would be that means perhaps there's an environmental or genetic issue in play, and that vaccines are not the actual culprit.

It isn't stupidity that drives people to not want to inject foreign matter into their children which has a side effect of death or crippling disabilities.

Actually, it pretty much is when you consider that most parents don't want their kids to get sick, period, and combine it with the fact that the effects of the vaccines are almost non-existent while the side effects of the diseases are crippling and killing children even as we speak.

So yes, it seems pretty stupid-to-the-bone to risk a 1-in1,000 chance when you can easily and safely cut those odds to in a million, or more.

While I certainly concede that if I were to whip up a random batch of minerals, chemicals and viruses, it's pretty likely that someone I injected it into would die. But that's because I don't have a lick of pharmacological experience. If I tried to land a jet, rest assured the scenario would not end well for essentially the same reason.

However, when people in laboratories do that, they know how they react, how they react together, and how they react inside the human body. They know these things because they spend decades studying those things, and they have generations of peer-reviewed evidence and strict testing protocols at their disposal as tools to making safe and effective products.


Generally speaking, there is simply absolutely no evidence that getting the vaccine is more dangerous than not getting the vaccine.

People are weighing their odds right now and are aware of the under reporting of vaccine side effects which makes them even more hesitant to take that gamble.

Awareness of what under-reporting? Still waiting to see that evidence. From what I read, while it's true that insignificant reactions (like a sore arm or slight fever) are likely under reported, the serious reactions (like meningitis and death) are likely to be over reported.

And a passive reporting system isn't any real substitute for clinical trials and evidence-based medicine. It is certainly a tool, but unless you are a statistics major, the numbers there mean very little regardless.

 

[IBleedNavyAndOrange]

If you haven't figured out that the system is rigged, I don't know what to tell you....

Keep voting?



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