Rand's Statement on Situation in Ukraine

There are a ton of people in parts of Syria that want to control their own destiny too, by making it into a Muslim Brotherhood Islamist state. If they want to call in help from the United States to pull this off, would it be wrong for a Russian leader to condemn that?

I don't think matters of opinion being given can be right or wrong. But sure, if parts of Syria wanted to secede and they wanted US help to pull it off they would be in their rights to try and ask. And of course, I as an American would strongly object and do whatever I could within reason to convince the US to not help them.

The US got foreign help when it broke away from England, did it not?
 
Press release:.....

"...Russia, which has begun to experience the benefits of expanded trade with World Trade Organization accession, should think long and hard about honoring their treaty obligations and fostering the stability that creates prosperity for its citizens...."

This reminds me. Has anyone heard Rand mention any kind of position on the Trans Pacific Partnership agreement?
 
Last edited:
Guilty culprit fingered in the Ukraine:

CNN News did it! It was a secret plot to increase their miserable TV ratings!

:p
 
Looks like we are well within our rights to invade cuba. Wow I am not feeling so bad about the US invading Iraq. Personally I have seen a good 50% of the people there loving us for kicking Saddam's ass. The Ron Paul movements noninterventionism looks to me like it was unadulteratedBULLSHIT!
 
Looks like we are well within our rights to invade cuba. Wow I am not feeling so bad about the US invading Iraq. Personally I have seen a good 50% of the people there loving us for kicking Saddam's ass. The Ron Paul movements noninterventionism looks to me like it was unadulteratedBULLSHIT!

What the hell happened to you? Unless my memory is overly rosy, two or three years ago you used to be an insightful poster. Now everytime I come back here to read the forums, you're constantly throwing melodramatic hissy fits and making sarcastic broad-brush (collectivist) accusations against Ron Paul supporters writ large any time you see a single poster (thoughtomator in this case?) say something you don't like. I rarely have the time to post here anymore, but I was insulted just reading this. Who here advocated interventionism? Hell, even in thoughtomator's case, he may be sympathizing with the Russian side of things, but he hasn't explicitly condoned their intervention in this thread either; he just pointed out we'd be crazy to think the Russian government isn't going to do what interventionist governments do in such situations.

As far as Rand's statement goes, Peace&Freedom hit the nail on the head: He's issuing an admonition, which Ron wouldn't do, but it's a very clever one that emphasizes the drawbacks and costs of interventionism itself (that it's disruptive, costly, falls on its face, and invites blowback and ill will). Every word he said is simply true, and if a larger discussion ever comes of it, it can be used to reframe the debate.
 
Last edited:
so us government shouldn't intervene but should reiterate the moral stance of regional self determination and non interventionism on part of large neighboring countries. here i thought ron has been preaching that since day one, rebuke through words, not military actions, but apparently some people can't even stuff that enough into their brain. like i been saying, former paul supporters have prove themselves to be huge disappointments
 
What the hell happened to you? Unless my memory is overly rosy, two or three years ago you used to be an insightful poster. Now everytime I come back here to read the forums, you're constantly throwing melodramatic hissy fits and making sarcastic broad-brush (collectivist) accusations against Ron Paul supporters writ large any time you see a single poster (thoughtomator in this case?) say something you don't like. I rarely have the time to post here anymore, but I was insulted just reading it. Who here advocated interventionism? Hell, even in thoughtomator's case, he may be sympathizing with the Russian side of things, but he hasn't explicitly condoned their intervention in this thread either; he just pointed out we'd be crazy to think the Russian government isn't going to do what interventionist governments do in such situations.
As far as Rand's statement goes, Peace&Freedom hit the nail on the head: He's issuing an admonition, which Ron wouldn't do, but it's a very clever one that emphasizes the drawbacks and costs of interventionism itself (that it's disruptive, costly, falls on its face, and invites blowback and ill will). Every word he said is simply true, and if a larger discussion ever comes of it, it can be used to reframe the debate.
Well in case YOU haven't figured it out, non intervention really means Support ANY other governments military action except the US. All the fucking excuses that it is ok for Russia to invade any other country because it suits their national interest is pure foreign neoconservatism. And yes I have figured out how phony a great deal of the movement really is and if you haven't had time to post maybe you haven't had time to read that many posts either.
 
So, I'm a little confused, help me out here...

Who sucks:

Rand?

Ron?

or Us?


Well in case YOU haven't figured it out, non intervention really means Support ANY other governments military action except the US. All the fucking excuses that it is ok for Russia to invade any other country because it suits their national interest is pure foreign neoconservatism. And yes I have figured out how phony a great deal of the movement really is and if you haven't had time to post maybe you haven't had time to read that many posts either.
 
Well in case YOU haven't figured it out, non intervention really means Support ANY other governments military action except the US. All the fucking excuses that it is ok for Russia to invade any other country because it suits their national interest is pure foreign neoconservatism.
Who actually said it was "okay?" I sure as hell didn't. Did ANYONE? No? In that case, how can you act as though Ron Paul supporters at large have subscribed to such a view, unless you're just looking for excuses to start shit with people?
And yes I have figured out how phony a great deal of the movement really is and if you haven't had time to post maybe you haven't had time to read that many posts either.
Specifics, please, without the melodrama?
 
Ron's statement on the Ukraine situation:

Submitted by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute,

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-24/ron-paul-leave-ukraine-alone

Last week Ukraine saw its worst violence since the break-up of the Soviet Union over 20 years ago. Protesters occupying the main square in the capitol city, Kiev, clashed with police leaving many protesters and police dead and many more wounded. It is an ongoing tragedy and it looks like there is no end in sight.

The current conflict stems from a divide between western Ukraine, which seeks a closer association with the European Union, and the eastern part of the country, which has closer historic ties to Russia.

The usual interventionists in the US have long meddled in the internal affairs of Ukraine. In 2004 it was US government money that helped finance the Orange Revolution, as US-funded NGOs favoring one political group over the other were able to change the regime. These same people have not given up on Ukraine. They keep pushing their own agenda for Ukraine behind the scenes, even as they ridicule anyone who claims US involvement.

A recent leaked telephone conversation between two senior government officials made it clear that not only was the US involved in the Ukrainian unrest, the US was actually seeking to determine who should make up the next Ukrainian government!

Senator John McCain, who has made several trips to Ukraine recently to meet with the opposition, wrote last week that the US must stand up to support the territorial integrity of Ukraine, including Crimea.

Why are US government officials so eager to tell the Ukrainians what they should do? Has anyone bothered to ask the Ukrainians? What if might help alleviate the ongoing violence and bloodshed, if the Ukrainians decided to re-make the country as a looser confederation of regions rather than one tightly controlled by a central government? Perhaps Ukraine engaged in peaceful trade with countries both to the west and east would benefit all sides. But outside powers seem to be fighting a proxy war, with Ukraine suffering the most because of it.

If you asked most Americans how they feel, my bet is that you would discover they are sick and tired of the US government getting involved in every crisis that arises. Certainly the American people want none of of this intervention in Ukraine. They understand, as recent polls have shown, that our interventionist foreign policy is only creating more enemies overseas. And they also understand that we are out of money. We could not afford to be the policemen of world even if we wanted to be.

And I bet if we asked the Ukrainians, a vast majority of them would prefer that the US — and Russia and the European Union — stay out their affairs and respect their sovereignty. Is it so difficult to understand why people resent being lectured and bribed by foreign governments? All we need to do is put ourselves in the place of the Ukrainians and ask ourselves how we would feel if we were in the middle of a tug-of-war between a very strong Canada on one side and a very strong Mexico on the other. We would resent it as well. So let’s keep our hands off of Ukraine and let them solve their own problems!
 
Who actually said it was "okay?" I sure as hell didn't. Did ANYONE? No? In that case, how can you act as though Ron Paul supporters at large have subscribed to such a view, unless you're just looking for excuses to start shit with people?

Specifics, please, without the melodrama?
Why bother. I actually have seen posts saying the Russian should march to Brussels. If can't see it you never will because you believe exactly the same way.
 
Why bother. I actually have seen posts saying the Russian should march to Brussels. If can't see it you never will because you believe exactly the same way.

You really have jumped the shark...Mini-Me is one of the most concise, thought provoking and high quality posters here, and as far from a "neocon warhawk" as the man in the moon.

Get a fucking grip...
 
Why bother. I actually have seen posts saying the Russian should march to Brussels. If can't see it you never will because you believe exactly the same way.

They're not in this thread. Where are they, and more importantly, about what percentage of forum posters have demonstrated those kind of views? Probably an extreme minority? Moreover, where do you get off telling me what I believe? Have you considered the possibility that you've grown jaded, and you're exaggerating things due to confirmation bias?
 
Last edited:
You really have jumped the shark...Mini-Me is one of the most concise, thought provoking and high quality posters here, and as far from a "neocon warhawk" as the man in the moon.

Get a fucking grip...

I think that's the first time anyone ever called me "concise," but thanks, and right back at you. :D
 
Ron's statement on the Ukraine situation:

Submitted by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute,

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-24/ron-paul-leave-ukraine-alone

Last week Ukraine saw its worst violence since the break-up of the Soviet Union over 20 years ago. Protesters occupying the main square in the capitol city, Kiev, clashed with police leaving many protesters and police dead and many more wounded. It is an ongoing tragedy and it looks like there is no end in sight.

The current conflict stems from a divide between western Ukraine, which seeks a closer association with the European Union, and the eastern part of the country, which has closer historic ties to Russia.

The usual interventionists in the US have long meddled in the internal affairs of Ukraine. In 2004 it was US government money that helped finance the Orange Revolution, as US-funded NGOs favoring one political group over the other were able to change the regime. These same people have not given up on Ukraine. They keep pushing their own agenda for Ukraine behind the scenes, even as they ridicule anyone who claims US involvement.

A recent leaked telephone conversation between two senior government officials made it clear that not only was the US involved in the Ukrainian unrest, the US was actually seeking to determine who should make up the next Ukrainian government!

Senator John McCain, who has made several trips to Ukraine recently to meet with the opposition, wrote last week that the US must stand up to support the territorial integrity of Ukraine, including Crimea.

Why are US government officials so eager to tell the Ukrainians what they should do? Has anyone bothered to ask the Ukrainians? What if might help alleviate the ongoing violence and bloodshed, if the Ukrainians decided to re-make the country as a looser confederation of regions rather than one tightly controlled by a central government? Perhaps Ukraine engaged in peaceful trade with countries both to the west and east would benefit all sides. But outside powers seem to be fighting a proxy war, with Ukraine suffering the most because of it.

If you asked most Americans how they feel, my bet is that you would discover they are sick and tired of the US government getting involved in every crisis that arises. Certainly the American people want none of of this intervention in Ukraine. They understand, as recent polls have shown, that our interventionist foreign policy is only creating more enemies overseas. And they also understand that we are out of money. We could not afford to be the policemen of world even if we wanted to be.

And I bet if we asked the Ukrainians, a vast majority of them would prefer that the US — and Russia and the European Union — stay out their affairs and respect their sovereignty. Is it so difficult to understand why people resent being lectured and bribed by foreign governments? All we need to do is put ourselves in the place of the Ukrainians and ask ourselves how we would feel if we were in the middle of a tug-of-war between a very strong Canada on one side and a very strong Mexico on the other. We would resent it as well. So let’s keep our hands off of Ukraine and let them solve their own problems!
ant that is what differentiates RP from many of his followers. He knows the US is interfering but he also knows Russia and the EU are as well and calls on them all to stay out.
 
Ron's statement on the Ukraine situation:

Submitted by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute,

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-24/ron-paul-leave-ukraine-alone

Last week Ukraine saw its worst violence since the break-up of the Soviet Union over 20 years ago. Protesters occupying the main square in the capitol city, Kiev, clashed with police leaving many protesters and police dead and many more wounded. It is an ongoing tragedy and it looks like there is no end in sight.

The current conflict stems from a divide between western Ukraine, which seeks a closer association with the European Union, and the eastern part of the country, which has closer historic ties to Russia.

The usual interventionists in the US have long meddled in the internal affairs of Ukraine. In 2004 it was US government money that helped finance the Orange Revolution, as US-funded NGOs favoring one political group over the other were able to change the regime. These same people have not given up on Ukraine. They keep pushing their own agenda for Ukraine behind the scenes, even as they ridicule anyone who claims US involvement.

A recent leaked telephone conversation between two senior government officials made it clear that not only was the US involved in the Ukrainian unrest, the US was actually seeking to determine who should make up the next Ukrainian government!

Senator John McCain, who has made several trips to Ukraine recently to meet with the opposition, wrote last week that the US must stand up to support the territorial integrity of Ukraine, including Crimea.

Why are US government officials so eager to tell the Ukrainians what they should do? Has anyone bothered to ask the Ukrainians? What if might help alleviate the ongoing violence and bloodshed, if the Ukrainians decided to re-make the country as a looser confederation of regions rather than one tightly controlled by a central government? Perhaps Ukraine engaged in peaceful trade with countries both to the west and east would benefit all sides. But outside powers seem to be fighting a proxy war, with Ukraine suffering the most because of it.

If you asked most Americans how they feel, my bet is that you would discover they are sick and tired of the US government getting involved in every crisis that arises. Certainly the American people want none of of this intervention in Ukraine. They understand, as recent polls have shown, that our interventionist foreign policy is only creating more enemies overseas. And they also understand that we are out of money. We could not afford to be the policemen of world even if we wanted to be.

And I bet if we asked the Ukrainians, a vast majority of them would prefer that the US — and Russia and the European Union — stay out their affairs and respect their sovereignty. Is it so difficult to understand why people resent being lectured and bribed by foreign governments? All we need to do is put ourselves in the place of the Ukrainians and ask ourselves how we would feel if we were in the middle of a tug-of-war between a very strong Canada on one side and a very strong Mexico on the other. We would resent it as well. So let’s keep our hands off of Ukraine and let them solve their own problems!

Ron Paul is always a pleasure to read. I just hope he's right in his optimism about changing public attitudes toward all of this meddling.
 
Back
Top