Rand Paul: Trump's tariffs will hurt Americans...

9/11 was caused by trade restrictions on Iraq? That's a new one but I'll give you credit for a fresh idea. I'm up by like 1000 points but I'll put up a point on the board for you for that one. Well done.
[MENTION=849]jmdrake[/MENTION] upon further review, unfortunately I have to revoke this point I gave you.

The trade restrictions on Iraq were done by the UN as punitive sanctions.

It's a strong argument against globalism, but that argument doesn't really apply to US tariffs, especially non-punitive ones.
 
In the real world there's a strong correlation between free trade and prosperity.

One other thing I would point out, is that free trade is typically great for poor nations. Poor nations benefit hugely from free trade. China for example is where it is today because of free trade. India is where it is today because of free trade.

So yea, if you're poor and you don't participate in free trade, you're gonna stay poor, at least relative to your peers.

This is because free trade acts as a global equalizer of economic wealth. But that also means that it results in a wealth transfer from the rich countries to the poor. I have proven that this is a real phenomenon, in another thread (link).

The United States started the 20th century with a massive economic advantage compared to other nations. Absolutely massive economic advantage. Over the past 124 years though, as free trade increased to unprecedented levels, that economic advantage has almost entirely eroded. China and India for example, have not only caught up, but in some ways they are beginning to surpass us economically. And while that's been happening, the US has been economically stagnating.

That's cus of free trade.

If it was merely a matter of a "rising tide raises all ships" that would be great, but that's not what's been happening.
 
Last edited:
That's kind of the whole point, that free trade has a strong tendency to create entangling alliances.

Switzerland traded freely and managed to stay neutral in both WW I & II. So the opposite of what you're arguing is actually true. Trying to "contain" this country or that country is at the heart of every scenario that ChatGPT generated for you.

So it's not exactly conflation, to point that out.

Ok. But why was the US shipping weapons to Great Britain? (The answer is, its economic ties)

No. That's your conclusion. The German market was bigger than the British market in 1914.

I completely agree, without entangling alliances, the US would have not have needed to get involved. But the US did have entangling alliances, and the US had entangling alliances because of its economic ties.

Wrong. See the example of Switzerland.

That's like saying, well if Timmy wasn't so fat he wouldn't have had a heart attack. But how did he get so fat? Eating too much chocolate.

We can all agree that if Timmy wasn't a fat $#@! he would be more healthy. And while chocolate is fine in moderation, it's hard to say that chocolate had nothing to do with Timmy being fat.

Silly conclusory argument. Trump's trade war with China is actually more akin to the chocolate Timmy is eating. In each example you gave the war came from a restriction on a potential trading partner that was considered "bad." (Germany in WW 1 and 2 and Japan in WW 2 were not a democracies. Vietnam and North Korea were and are communist etc.) In each of those cases there were trade restrictions on the "bad" countries which is exactly what Trump is wanting to do with tarriffs.

ChatGPT wrote that and I decided to keep that in to see if anyone was actually reading. (Good job!)

I also left it in to maintain intellectual honesty, as it is a valid point - embargos can lead to war. But keep in mind, if there wasn't trade to begin with, the embargo wouldn't have been needed at all.

So....is your argument zero trade period? Not the Trump postion of "tarrifs on the bad guys" but just don't trade with anybody? Basically become imperial China? Ummm....okay. I thought we were talking about the Trump tariffs.

Well, that's kind of what happens when entangling alliances are a direct and predictable consequence of free trade.

Timmy eats a lot of chocolate, Timmy gets fat.

Except it isn't. The Trump tarriffs are the chocolate. But your argument seems to be "Don't let Timmy eat a damn thing!" Ummmm....okay. That's a guaranteeed way to get Timmy to lose weight.

Cause, and effect.

Yes. If Timmy goes on a starvation diet he will definitely lose weight. Eventually he'll starve to death, but before that he'll lose weight.


If only little Timmy were healthy, he would still be with us. But it had nothing to do with the chocolate, I swear!

Not if you starve him to death.

Poor Timmy, but it's definitely not the chocolate's fault

So...let Timmy starve to death. Got it.



Oh look, it's poor Timmy again.

Got it. No food whatsoever for Timmy.


9/11 was caused by trade restrictions on Iraq? That's a new one but I'll give you credit for a fresh idea. I'm up by like 1000 points but I'll put up a point on the board for you for that one. Well done.

It's not a fresh idea. Ron Paul talked about this as early as 2011 and likely even earlier.

Here's Ron Paul talking about sanctions against Iraq being an act of war.

https://www.eurasiareview.com/29112...ockades-are-acts-of-war-oped/#google_vignette

Many people have the misconception that sanctions are an effective means to encourage a change of behavior in another country without war. However, imposing sanctions and blockades are not only an act of war according to international law, they are most often the first step toward a real war starting with a bombing campaign. Sanctions were the first step in our wars against Iraq and Libya, and now more sanctions planned against Syria and Iran are leading down the same destructive path.​

And here's Ron Paul talking about our wars in the middle east leading to 9/11 and those wars started off with sanctions.

 
One other thing I would point out, is that free trade is typically great for poor nations. Poor nations benefit hugely from free trade. China for example is where it is today because of free trade. India is where it is today because of free trade.

So yea, if you're poor and you don't participate in free trade, you're gonna stay poor, at least relative to your peers.

This is because free trade acts as a global equalizer of economic wealth. But that also means that it results in a wealth transfer from the rich countries to the poor. I have proven that this is a real phenomenon, in another thread (link).

The United States started the 20th century with a massive economic advantage compared to other nations. Absolutely massive economic advantage. Over the past 124 years though, as free trade increased to unprecedented levels, that economic advantage has almost entirely eroded. China and India for example, have not only caught up, but in some ways they are beginning to surpass us economically.

That's cus of free trade.

So you don't think the fact that we changed from mostly capitalistic with small government to mostly socialistic with massive government had anything to do with us not being able to make anything?
 
[MENTION=849]jmdrake[/MENTION] upon further review, unfortunately I have to revoke this point I gave you.

The trade restrictions on Iraq were done by the UN as punitive sanctions.

It's a strong argument against globalism, but that argument doesn't really apply to US tariffs, especially non-punitive ones.

And who went to the U.N. to demand the sanctions? The U.S. of course! Anyway this is all irrelevant because apparently you don't want trade at all. Starve fat Timmy to death!
 
So, according to heritage economic freedom index, which has trade freedom as a significant part of its score, countries with free trade get high scores?

Imagine that :cool:

Those are the top 10 and bottom 10 in trade freedom only. Overall freedom index was not factored in. It's up to you to decide if there's a correlation between the top 10 and bottom 10 in trade freedom.
 
Switzerland traded freely and managed to stay neutral in both WW I & II. So the opposite of what you're arguing is actually true. Trying to "contain" this country or that country is at the heart of every scenario that ChatGPT generated for you.

I said that free trade has a strong tendency to create entangling alliances.

Sure, Switzerland may have skated by World War I and World II, but look at where are they now? Yep - entangling alliances.


No. That's your conclusion. The German market was bigger than the British market in 1914.

They were probably about the same size but it wasn't even a matter of which market was bigger. When the war broke out in Europe, trade with Germany was cut off, but the US continued to trade with Britain, because those trade routes were still open. This led to the US contributing supplies to Britain, to reinforce the trade routes, which of course led to Germany's submarines, closing those trade routes, which of course led to US involvement in the war.

The US could have stopped trade at any point in that sequence and the US would not have needed to go to war. But it didn't stop. Because it's a fat fucking Timmy and it loves that trade chocolate yum yum yum.

So....is your argument zero trade period? Not the Trump postion of "tarrifs on the bad guys" but just don't trade with anybody? Basically become imperial China? Ummm....okay. I thought we were talking about the Trump tariffs.

My position is pretty simple:

Free trade has pro's and con's and these should be weighed accordingly.

If we can't have an honest debate that acknowledges simple realities that free trade can lead to war, just as tariffs can lead to war, then how am I supposed to trust that the proponents of free trade are doing so in a manner that is considerate of these risks?


Except it isn't. The Trump tarriffs are the chocolate. But your argument seems to be "Don't let Timmy eat a damn thing!" Ummmm....okay. That's a guaranteeed way to get Timmy to lose weight.

Free trade and tariffs are both chocolate.

Yes. If Timmy goes on a starvation diet he will definitely lose weight. Eventually he'll starve to death, but before that he'll lose weight.

Fat people can go a surprisingly long time without eating and still not starve.


Not if you starve him to death.

So...let Timmy starve to death. Got it.

How about a more moderate position: maybe a little less chocolate?
 
And who went to the U.N. to demand the sanctions? The U.S. of course! Anyway this is all irrelevant because apparently you don't want trade at all. Starve fat Timmy to death!

And why did they go to the UN to demand the sanctions? Because of entangling alliances. And why did they have entangling alliances? Because they grew reliant on foreign trade.

I'm not even sure what is so controversial about the above statements. Is it just pure stubbornness to avoid admitting that trade with other nations can have negative consequences?
 
So you don't think the fact that we changed from mostly capitalistic with small government to mostly socialistic with massive government had anything to do with us not being able to make anything?

I think free trade -- or "free trade", because none of it was free trade by Ron Paul standards -- contributed greatly towards building that socalistic, massive government.

It was our trade agreements, that led to the world being on the fiat US dollar, which led to our ability to print massive money, which led us to where we are now.
 
98h9zk.jpg
 
And why did they go to the UN to demand the sanctions? Because of entangling alliances. And why did they have entangling alliances? Because they grew reliant on foreign trade.

I'm not even sure what is so controversial about the above statements. Is it just pure stubbornness to avoid admitting that trade with other nations can have negative consequences?

Actually the reverse is true. The U.S. sought "entangling alliances" because the U.S. wanted the rest of the world to go along with their little scheme.
 
Actually the reverse is true. The U.S. sought "entangling alliances" because the U.S. wanted the rest of the world to go along with their little scheme.

And why did the US want the rest of the world to go along with their little scheme?
 
The U.S. was shipping weapons to Great Britain. That's why Germany started sinking our ships.
Now ask why we took a side.
We had far more trade (and thus other entanglements) with the UK.
A mere 5% of Germany's imports and but 7% of Germany's exports were with N. America (that would include Mexico and Canada as well)

One of the outstanding features of this war is its amazing demonstration of the economic power of England. Once Sir Walter Raleigh said that the nation which controlled the shipping of the world controlled the trade of the world and so the world itself. Sir Walter Raleigh stated the principle; the proof was in the great European War.
England at the outset of the war owned over half the merchant shipping in the world. This she withdrew from all service that might aid her enemies. She controlled the marine insurance business. The withdrawal of English companies from participation in the underwriting of risks on German-American trade was one of the obstacles to the recovery of that trade. The London discount market, through which most of international trade had been financed, was withdrawn from the service of England's enemies.
All this was a legitimate use of British economic power. For a belligerent to forbid trading with the enemy is as old as Tar itself. But England went further than this. We see uses of her power that strike us as more novel. The British naval power was used so to threaten with starvation the neutral nations of Europe that they agreed not only not to allow goods to pass through their territories in transit to Germany, but they even agreed not to supply Germany with their own products. Neutral merchants submit their books to English accountants who satisfy themselves that none of the neutral imports are resold into Germany.
Early in the war the British cut the German cable, leaving us largely dependent on British and French cables for communication with northern Europe. When Italy entered the war, our dependence was complete. No message to European neutrals is allowed to reach its destination if the British censor imagines that it refers to a transaction that may be benefiting Germany. Sweden has complained that this exercise of the censor's imagination has seriously impaired her legitimate trade with us. In August, 1915, the packers were in Washington complaining of the cable censorship. They complained that, after creating the Netherlands Oversea Trust and designating it as the sole consignee for our exports to Holland, Britain was refusing to let our cables reach even the Trust.
These cases represent unprecedented interference with the course of neutral trade. And yet Americans do not excite themselves unduly because of what Britain is doing to Denmark or Holland, even though it is our exports which are there being subjected to British supervision.
Another set of cases comes nearer. Some of them are detailed in this chapter. Rubber from the British empire was withheld from the American trade until Americans signed an agreement not to manufacture rubber goods---from any rubber whatever---for the enemies of England. So with wool. So with tin.
Because of a blockade which we do not recognize, we are cut off from imports from Germany, and we face serious industrial disturbance through the failure of the potash and dyestuffs supply.
We already have seen that the Admiralty forced our copper exporters to place in its hands the direction of our copper trade. The Liverpool Cotton Exchange now apparently blacklists all Americans who do not sign an agreement not to deal with the enemies of Britain.
It is indicated by Great Britain to the steamship lines carrying our exports that American shipments to neutral countries, if approved by British consuls, are less likely to be detained. Steamship lines refuse to take shipments until they are so approved. British consuls in American ports are engaged in accepting affidavits from American shippers that none of our exports for neutral countries will get through to Germany; though in our official protest to England we assert that for us to accede to the purpose of the ineffective British blockade would be to violate our neutral obligation to trade with both belligerents.
It is impossible to reach this point without feeling that our American sovereignty is involved.
More at: https://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/Clapp/Clapp5.htm





How exactly are you putting "an embargo on Japanese goods" in the "free trade" category? :rolleyes:
Same question, same answer.



Hmmmm.....trying to "contain communism" in North Korea led to war and now Trump is trying to "contain communism" in China and that's different because......? Another entangling alliance masquerading as "free trade."
There is no free trade with communist countries, they use trade warfare.
Free trade and its necessary dependencies require that communism be contained or suppressed, or that we submit to communism.



Yet another entangling alliance. Funny enough, once we "lost" the Vietnam war, Vietnam eventually because a tourist destination and exported wonderful goods and services to the U.S. like...flappy bird. (Being faecetious on flappy bird). Still, trade wasn't the problem. Entangling alliances were.
Entangling alliances created by trade ties.




The entangling alliance of the petro-dollar combined with the entangling alliance of the U.S. at first encouraging Saddam to invade Iran and then the Saddam being upset because Kuwait was undermining the price of oil when Saddam needed it to be high to pay off his Iran war debt.

https://adst.org/2016/09/sparking-iraqs-invasion-kuwait-loans-land-oil-access/

Interestingly enough Israel supported Iran during the Iran / Iraq war. Another entangling alliance. (Oh what a tangled web we weave!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Iran_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war
More trade created entangling alliances.


The CIA wanted the opium fields the flourish again to fund their dirty wars. (Another entangling alliance). Unocal wanted a pipeline. And there are rare earth minerals. Not sure what any of this has to do with tarriffs though. :confused: The U.S. would be better off without the CIA's entangling alliances.
More trade imperialism seeking resources cheaper than they could be obtained at home to benefit the rootless cosmopolitan international trade class and their pursuit of global government.



Trade restrictions on Iraq likely motivated Osama Bin Laden to attack the U.S. Again the issue was the restriction of trade coupled with entangling alliances which fueled terrorism leading up to 9/11, 9/11 itself and the U.S. response to 9/11.



500,000 Iraqis, most of them children, dead from U.S. restrictions on trade.

So @Matt Collins might not have articulated the point in the most elloquent way, but he is correct. Free trade, real free trade, tends towards peace. But if you're going to pretend that embargos and/or CIA black market ops are somehow "free trade"....well that's kind of disingenous.

We interfered in Iraq's trade, that's entirely different from protectionist tariffs.
And, again, the reason we did so was because we were entangled in trade for cheap foreign oil and other trade connected entanglements.

International trade on any significant scale causes wars, it has throughout history.
And when it doesn't it causes integration and drift towards centralized tyranny and global government, like the EU.
 
So you don't think the fact that we changed from mostly capitalistic with small government to mostly socialistic with massive government had anything to do with us not being able to make anything?
Why were we able to do so without an immediate collapse and revolt?

Because we could import cheap slave labor goods to mask the decline of our economy.
 
Now ask why we took a side.
We had far more trade (and thus other entanglements) with the UK.
A mere 5% of Germany's imports and but 7% of Germany's exports were with N. America (that would include Mexico and Canada as well)

One of the outstanding features of this war is its amazing demonstration of the economic power of England. Once Sir Walter Raleigh said that the nation which controlled the shipping of the world controlled the trade of the world and so the world itself. Sir Walter Raleigh stated the principle; the proof was in the great European War.
England at the outset of the war owned over half the merchant shipping in the world. This she withdrew from all service that might aid her enemies. She controlled the marine insurance business. The withdrawal of English companies from participation in the underwriting of risks on German-American trade was one of the obstacles to the recovery of that trade. The London discount market, through which most of international trade had been financed, was withdrawn from the service of England's enemies.
All this was a legitimate use of British economic power. For a belligerent to forbid trading with the enemy is as old as Tar itself. But England went further than this. We see uses of her power that strike us as more novel. The British naval power was used so to threaten with starvation the neutral nations of Europe that they agreed not only not to allow goods to pass through their territories in transit to Germany, but they even agreed not to supply Germany with their own products. Neutral merchants submit their books to English accountants who satisfy themselves that none of the neutral imports are resold into Germany.
Early in the war the British cut the German cable, leaving us largely dependent on British and French cables for communication with northern Europe. When Italy entered the war, our dependence was complete. No message to European neutrals is allowed to reach its destination if the British censor imagines that it refers to a transaction that may be benefiting Germany. Sweden has complained that this exercise of the censor's imagination has seriously impaired her legitimate trade with us. In August, 1915, the packers were in Washington complaining of the cable censorship. They complained that, after creating the Netherlands Oversea Trust and designating it as the sole consignee for our exports to Holland, Britain was refusing to let our cables reach even the Trust.
These cases represent unprecedented interference with the course of neutral trade. And yet Americans do not excite themselves unduly because of what Britain is doing to Denmark or Holland, even though it is our exports which are there being subjected to British supervision.
Another set of cases comes nearer. Some of them are detailed in this chapter. Rubber from the British empire was withheld from the American trade until Americans signed an agreement not to manufacture rubber goods---from any rubber whatever---for the enemies of England. So with wool. So with tin.
Because of a blockade which we do not recognize, we are cut off from imports from Germany, and we face serious industrial disturbance through the failure of the potash and dyestuffs supply.
We already have seen that the Admiralty forced our copper exporters to place in its hands the direction of our copper trade. The Liverpool Cotton Exchange now apparently blacklists all Americans who do not sign an agreement not to deal with the enemies of Britain.
It is indicated by Great Britain to the steamship lines carrying our exports that American shipments to neutral countries, if approved by British consuls, are less likely to be detained. Steamship lines refuse to take shipments until they are so approved. British consuls in American ports are engaged in accepting affidavits from American shippers that none of our exports for neutral countries will get through to Germany; though in our official protest to England we assert that for us to accede to the purpose of the ineffective British blockade would be to violate our neutral obligation to trade with both belligerents.
It is impossible to reach this point without feeling that our American sovereignty is involved.
More at: https://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/comment/Clapp/Clapp5.htm






Same question, same answer.




There is no free trade with communist countries, they use trade warfare.
Free trade and its necessary dependencies require that communism be contained or suppressed, or that we submit to communism.




Entangling alliances created by trade ties.





More trade created entangling alliances.



More trade imperialism seeking resources cheaper than they could be obtained at home to benefit the rootless cosmopolitan international trade class and their pursuit of global government.




We interfered in Iraq's trade, that's entirely different from protectionist tariffs.
And, again, the reason we did so was because we were entangled in trade for cheap foreign oil and other trade connected entanglements.

International trade on any significant scale causes wars, it has throughout history.
And when it doesn't it causes integration and drift towards centralized tyranny and global government, like the EU.

Nothing in your wall of text has anything to do with protective tarriffs. Not unless you think protective tarriffs on British goods somehow would have changed anything.
 
unless you think protective tarriffs on British goods somehow would have changed anything.

It begins to penetrate.

And even if America couldn't produce its own rubber or something at the time it still demonstrates that it was the trade ties that got us involved on one side or the other.
Less trade ties=less wars.
 
I've been hoping that someone would make the Ron Paul argument, but noone has even tried. Here's a hint:

"Managed trade, not free trade, of course creates trade dependencies and entangled alliances and leads to wars. Free market free trade however, ----- and this is the part where you educate me on how "free market free trade" is different, in such a manner that it doesn't create trade dependencies (or even, significantly fewer)".

I have an open mind. I'm willing to be educated on the subject, if anyone does have any legitimate answers, rather than stubborn outright refusals that trade of any kind can have any negative effects (which even Ron Paul disagrees with).
 
Back
Top