Cabal
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Where does your plan intend to receive this money from?
Rand Paul: Obama Cutting Tomahawk Missile Makes No Sense
- Thread starter green73
- Start date
Where does your plan intend to receive this money from?
r3volution 3.0
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If your point is that all taxation is illegitimate, I agree.
kcchiefs6465
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By all means, lay out your plan.
What does ~ 150B look like with regards to America?
You'd probably alleviate some concerns.
Also, what do you do about the wounded veterans? Their care alone is going to cost more than 150B (though I understand that it is not tallied in the DOD budget).
r3volution 3.0
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The $150 billion I cited doesn't include the VA.
Last fiscal year the VA cost $140 billion.
I'm not sure how/if that can be cut, I just haven't looked into it.
This is a summary, ask me for further details/justification.
Total Cost = $152.344 billion per year
US Navy
Force
- 242 SSN
- 189 SSK
- 9 SSGN
- 14 SSBN
- 4 LSD
- various surveillance aircraft (see below)
Cost
- O&M + procurement/life per Virginia-Class SSNGN/BN = $132M x 265 = $34.98B
- O&M + procurement/life per AIP SSK = $40M x 189 = $7.56B
- O&M + procurement/life per dock landing ship = $53M x 4 = $212M
- per E-6 = $56.613M total cost x 16 = $906M
- per P-3/P-8 = $27.676M total cost x 167 = $4.621B
- 132 crew SSN/GN/BN, 27 crew SSK, 413 crew LSD, 1:3 tooth:tail = 121,901 personnel
- current personnel total is 432,000 with budget of $29.021B
- new personnel cost = 28% x $29.021B = $8.125B
- USN MILCON FY14 baseline = $1.565 billion
- USN R&D FY14 baseline = $10.016 billion (FY14 less items clearly not submarine-related)
- Total = $67.985B/year
US Air Force
Force
- 17 F-22 squadrons (of 25 each)
- 6 A-10 squadrons (25 each)
- 90 C-5 (capable of lifting 3 divisions 4000nm in 4 days)
- various surveillance aircraft (see below)
Cost
- O&M + procurement/life + crew and support personnel per F-22 = $16.248M x 425 = $6.905B
- O&M + procurement/life + crew and support personnel per A-10 = $4.784M x 150 = $717M
- O&M + procurement/life + crew and support personnel per C-5 = $26M x 90 = $2.34B
- per E-3 = $66.792M x 32 =$2.137B
- per E-4 = 56.452M x 4 = $226M
- per RC-135 = $66.792M x 22 = $1.469B
- per WC-135 = $66.792M x 2 = $134M
- per U-2 = $3.5M x 26 = $91M
- USAF MILCON FY14 baseline = $1.156B
- USAF R&D FY14 baseline = $25.702B
- Total = $40.877B
US Army
Force
- 6 reserve divisions
Cost
- US ARNG FY14 baseline = $15.415 billion (includes personnel, O&M, MILCON)
- US Army FY14 baseline procurement (for its 18 divisions) = $15.961B / 3 = $5.32B
- US Army FY14 army baseline R&D = $7.989B
- Total = $28.724B/year
US Marine Corps
Force
- 21 infantry battalions with support (equivalent of 1.75 divisions)
Cost
- USMC Green FY14 baseline (for its 3 divisions) = $25.3B / 3 x 1.75 = $14.758B
- MILCON and R&D within naval budget
- Total = $14.758B
Last edited:
kcchiefs6465
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Thanks for posting that, Revolution.
Interesting, as I'd never really considered what I'd prefer to keep and what I would not. Not as detailed as you have, anyways.
My $150B figure came from the CATO Institute, who was sourced in a book I'd read. There was also a study conducted in '97 or '98 that concluded an adequate military budget, to fight a war twice as large as Desert Storm, was around $275B (my reference isn't handy but I don't think I'm too far off on that source). I also looked at the 1996 budget, which wasn't too long ago when I was considering my position, and I generally assume that at least 50% of a given budget is wasted away in bureaucracy, embezzlement, and fraud.
You are correct though, I should look into the matter more deeply. I don't encounter many who could even tell me what the B-2 is, let alone how much the total cost is per aircraft, but on the off chance I do, I'd rather have a more detailed analysis of what to keep and what to ax as well as specific reasoning why.
Of course, it all should be voluntarily funded and the people who do not wish to pay for it should not be extorted to pay for it. If it doesn't get funded, it doesn't get funded. I'm not particularly worried about another country invading here. The countries close haven't the means and the countries far would not have the means for long (it would be a quagmire the likes to make Afghanistan look 'winnable'). Aside from how devastating it would be for them. It's just nonsensical.
And as well, spending as they've been spending, we ought to be good for a while (I guess if we ever truly find out the magnitude of their crimes, we can determine that for sure). Encouraging free trade and acting from a sense of humility would benefit the world enough. Us being the beacon of hope and freedom would also cause limitations on what dictators and tyrants are able to do to their people. Perhaps their people would not take it. Perhaps the tyrants could be justly overthrown without US complicity in the propping up of them.
This authoritarianism is incompatible with the sustainability of this planet.
Interesting, as I'd never really considered what I'd prefer to keep and what I would not. Not as detailed as you have, anyways.
My $150B figure came from the CATO Institute, who was sourced in a book I'd read. There was also a study conducted in '97 or '98 that concluded an adequate military budget, to fight a war twice as large as Desert Storm, was around $275B (my reference isn't handy but I don't think I'm too far off on that source). I also looked at the 1996 budget, which wasn't too long ago when I was considering my position, and I generally assume that at least 50% of a given budget is wasted away in bureaucracy, embezzlement, and fraud.
You are correct though, I should look into the matter more deeply. I don't encounter many who could even tell me what the B-2 is, let alone how much the total cost is per aircraft, but on the off chance I do, I'd rather have a more detailed analysis of what to keep and what to ax as well as specific reasoning why.
Of course, it all should be voluntarily funded and the people who do not wish to pay for it should not be extorted to pay for it. If it doesn't get funded, it doesn't get funded. I'm not particularly worried about another country invading here. The countries close haven't the means and the countries far would not have the means for long (it would be a quagmire the likes to make Afghanistan look 'winnable'). Aside from how devastating it would be for them. It's just nonsensical.
And as well, spending as they've been spending, we ought to be good for a while (I guess if we ever truly find out the magnitude of their crimes, we can determine that for sure). Encouraging free trade and acting from a sense of humility would benefit the world enough. Us being the beacon of hope and freedom would also cause limitations on what dictators and tyrants are able to do to their people. Perhaps their people would not take it. Perhaps the tyrants could be justly overthrown without US complicity in the propping up of them.
This authoritarianism is incompatible with the sustainability of this planet.
phill4paul
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Slide the role of the Air Force back to the Dept. of the Navy. The Navy pilots are better anyway, just ask Danke. Get rid of the standing Army. Get rid of regulations barring citizens from arming themselves. Easily reduced by half.
NIU Students for Liberty
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Except I can control who I'm aiming for with a Glock.
fr33
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No it really isn't. It would be more like blaming the cost of bullets in target practice for a shooter's poverty. In any case I shouldn't have to fund his hobby. I have no problem with tomahawk missiles themselves. I just have a problem with being forced to pay for someone else's stockpile of them.
GunnyFreedom
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My proposal is first and fundamentally an operational and policy transformation. It incorporates a proper noninterventionist foreign policy with an upgrade in operational strength. It also provides a structure from which, if we choose so someday, America can reconstitute the Popular Militia. It starts with an upgrade in operational response.
Build a network of secret, semi-secret, honeypot, and public military installations in CONUS, at strategic points along our borders, and on multiple locations within all our possessions and territories. Build a specialized 'structure' of military installation and call it a 'launch pad.'
Each installation having space enough for three battalions of any kind of infantry mechanized and specialized, or combat engineers. One battalion is "in the chamber" for a month, one stays at the ready, the other is off duty and on stand-by. When you are "in the chamber" you are basically at war. You can have a full battalion of men airborne and ready to land in force in an hour and on a hair trigger. Basically poised with bayonet fixed. The reserve relaxed to a ten hour fix, and the stand-by at 36 hours to deploy. Run four units through the process. One is always "completely off" for a month.
Network these installations and transport units like data packets. Build Brigades Regiments, Corps and Armies "in the static" of these installations, with a mobile HQ that skips from pad to pad at 6-month breaks. These secret, semi-secret, honeypot, and public military installations being in some cases wide open to the public and in others so hidden the NSA doesn't know about it. Some are crazy camouflage and out in the open somewhere to thrill the conspiracy people too. You don't have to actually move battalions through them, you can host companies, or just platoons in the three 'cells' at each launchpad.
When you do exercises, you get the launchcall and land at 29 stumps or wherever, a formed brigade or whatever.
Actively treat all units as data packets in a large computer network, and comm traffic them around like lightening. Have 5-10 super-launchpads that can hold whole divisions and use them as router switches for the information flow of the personnel and equipment around these launchpads.
The end result being the ability to assemble 10-12 Armed Divisions of any kind of force, anywhere on the planet, in 18-24 hours.
Fill out that structure with the personnel, equipment, and unit structure already existing. Pull all US Army presence back to US, possessions and territories. Deploy US Navy Ships or re-purpose Aircraft Carrier (group) to accomplish the same process with Marines afloat. Acclimate soldiers, sailors, Marines, and command to the new process, and then start opening things like national guard armory posts, retire much of the active duty to the citizens militia, and have the members vote the chain of command.
Over 14 years draw the active portions down to a skeleton of elite super-elite warrior machines; but keep an enormous public action --- similar to "Civil Air Patrol" but grounded to the County and a popular election for County militia commander. Maybe a vote of officers for District, and a vote of commanders for State?
Open high-speed low-drag training tactical training to the public. Basically say Joe the plumber get a weed up his ass and wants to go to Ranger School. Let him. Let him flunk out or pass. WHatever. Apparently an Angel carried him through because now he wears a green beret around his local militia post. Airborne, whatever, any training the military offers. And make a structure like Civil Air Patrol but with real guns.
Now, you put your bean counters on top of this to develop a 'readiness' metric, and tune the transition down from active to militia as 'readiness' increases from a popular availability to immediate war.
Having pared the salaried manpower down by some 70%, and spending MORE on training and militia services, uniforms equipment devices weapons etc you effectively triple the size of your Army while paying half as much.
NOW you start running militia units through launchpads on a volunteer basis to make later integration simple in the event of war. The militia then makes a small skeleton of personnel who are basically "full time" and embed with the skeleton of "Active Duty" and in the event of a Real Freakin War these active militia filter back home and help create the transition into active units of war.
At the end of the day, you have....faster and more coordinated response....More force concentration in more places at a faster rate...a more immediate response time.....an exponentially larger reserve....and a public militia of sovereign men and women that will not be conquered by any government, foreign or domestic.
NOW you are stronger and faster in every way, and you are paying maybe 40% of what you were, and the American Public is better off, with any Joe Schmo being able to take any military school they want at any freakin time they want it. (Member of the public militia depending)
And here we solve even more problems. Say homelessness and hunger. Eat a meal brother, just stand watch on this barracks for 8 hours and we'll give you a cot and a locher that's all yours, and showers and whatnot. It basically eliminates involuntary homelessness and hunger too.
Imagine, every Joe a Rambo, and a meal for every belly and a roof for every head that wants one. From a free-market Constitutionalist paradigm. A national defense in the trusted hands of the best citizens militia ever imagined by the mind of man. The ultimate power over martial force back in the hands of the People where it belongs.
Including militia costs you are less than half current DOD. And you end of stronger and faster and a better America.
Build a network of secret, semi-secret, honeypot, and public military installations in CONUS, at strategic points along our borders, and on multiple locations within all our possessions and territories. Build a specialized 'structure' of military installation and call it a 'launch pad.'
Each installation having space enough for three battalions of any kind of infantry mechanized and specialized, or combat engineers. One battalion is "in the chamber" for a month, one stays at the ready, the other is off duty and on stand-by. When you are "in the chamber" you are basically at war. You can have a full battalion of men airborne and ready to land in force in an hour and on a hair trigger. Basically poised with bayonet fixed. The reserve relaxed to a ten hour fix, and the stand-by at 36 hours to deploy. Run four units through the process. One is always "completely off" for a month.
Network these installations and transport units like data packets. Build Brigades Regiments, Corps and Armies "in the static" of these installations, with a mobile HQ that skips from pad to pad at 6-month breaks. These secret, semi-secret, honeypot, and public military installations being in some cases wide open to the public and in others so hidden the NSA doesn't know about it. Some are crazy camouflage and out in the open somewhere to thrill the conspiracy people too. You don't have to actually move battalions through them, you can host companies, or just platoons in the three 'cells' at each launchpad.
When you do exercises, you get the launchcall and land at 29 stumps or wherever, a formed brigade or whatever.
Actively treat all units as data packets in a large computer network, and comm traffic them around like lightening. Have 5-10 super-launchpads that can hold whole divisions and use them as router switches for the information flow of the personnel and equipment around these launchpads.
The end result being the ability to assemble 10-12 Armed Divisions of any kind of force, anywhere on the planet, in 18-24 hours.
Fill out that structure with the personnel, equipment, and unit structure already existing. Pull all US Army presence back to US, possessions and territories. Deploy US Navy Ships or re-purpose Aircraft Carrier (group) to accomplish the same process with Marines afloat. Acclimate soldiers, sailors, Marines, and command to the new process, and then start opening things like national guard armory posts, retire much of the active duty to the citizens militia, and have the members vote the chain of command.
Over 14 years draw the active portions down to a skeleton of elite super-elite warrior machines; but keep an enormous public action --- similar to "Civil Air Patrol" but grounded to the County and a popular election for County militia commander. Maybe a vote of officers for District, and a vote of commanders for State?
Open high-speed low-drag training tactical training to the public. Basically say Joe the plumber get a weed up his ass and wants to go to Ranger School. Let him. Let him flunk out or pass. WHatever. Apparently an Angel carried him through because now he wears a green beret around his local militia post. Airborne, whatever, any training the military offers. And make a structure like Civil Air Patrol but with real guns.
Now, you put your bean counters on top of this to develop a 'readiness' metric, and tune the transition down from active to militia as 'readiness' increases from a popular availability to immediate war.
Having pared the salaried manpower down by some 70%, and spending MORE on training and militia services, uniforms equipment devices weapons etc you effectively triple the size of your Army while paying half as much.
NOW you start running militia units through launchpads on a volunteer basis to make later integration simple in the event of war. The militia then makes a small skeleton of personnel who are basically "full time" and embed with the skeleton of "Active Duty" and in the event of a Real Freakin War these active militia filter back home and help create the transition into active units of war.
At the end of the day, you have....faster and more coordinated response....More force concentration in more places at a faster rate...a more immediate response time.....an exponentially larger reserve....and a public militia of sovereign men and women that will not be conquered by any government, foreign or domestic.
NOW you are stronger and faster in every way, and you are paying maybe 40% of what you were, and the American Public is better off, with any Joe Schmo being able to take any military school they want at any freakin time they want it. (Member of the public militia depending)
And here we solve even more problems. Say homelessness and hunger. Eat a meal brother, just stand watch on this barracks for 8 hours and we'll give you a cot and a locher that's all yours, and showers and whatnot. It basically eliminates involuntary homelessness and hunger too.
Imagine, every Joe a Rambo, and a meal for every belly and a roof for every head that wants one. From a free-market Constitutionalist paradigm. A national defense in the trusted hands of the best citizens militia ever imagined by the mind of man. The ultimate power over martial force back in the hands of the People where it belongs.
Including militia costs you are less than half current DOD. And you end of stronger and faster and a better America.
GunnyFreedom
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No, I think I would pass a Constitutional Amendment for the Air Force, and fund them similar to the Navy. Make them smaller, and integrate them also with a militia model to form an air militia. It would not be as complete as the ground militia already described, and the active component would be way larger, BUT one of the keys of Air Power is also bandwidth. A more elite group of "Civil Air Patrol" works more closely with the active component of the USAF. Maybe actually the current Civil Air Patrol itself tweaked heavily.
GunnyFreedom
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And what if you were friends and drinking buddies with the commander of the local public militia Tomahawk battalion? Would that make the justice work?
GunnyFreedom
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Yes, my method would take a little more spending up front, an investment into the infrastructure and training of a 'new kind of Army' that is both better and stronger, and 65% cheaper too. and 100% more American.
GunnyFreedom
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Commander of County is a Bird Colonel. The County Commander of militia is voted for on the public ballot alongside the Sheriff. Everybody who votes, votes for the commander of the County Militia.
A one-star general is friendly with several counties and executive structure and interfaces/coordinates trains with facilitates things.
All of the County Colonels vote for a two-star District Commander
All Colonels and Two-Stars then vote for State Commander who wears four stars.
Three Stars appropriated to staff and divisions and macro-structure command.
Militia posts are public property and paid out of the federal and State treasuries.
Set up like National Guard posts, but more elaborate.
Make a public "Civil Air Patrol" organization for adults with real weapons.
Make it a REAL public militia of sovereign and free public persons according to popular will.
------------------
DOD spending transition to militia and retire out active to civilian to build the thing
Grow the free volunteer militia to 3x current manpower of armed forces. Draw down salaried Battalions, Retain the names of Divisions and Armies and Corps and Battalions and even companies. Maybe a Company is ten of the most elite soldiers what ever marched under the American flag. It is still a Company. It's purpose is to "dock with" an incoming Militia Company in a time of catastrophic war.
A Captain is a liaison with the local militia; helps coordinate and organize structures into larger and more strategic forces for more powerful foes.
Training between these and militia with regularity, but never in continuity. Twice a year on exercises, preferably, and maintain a friendly remote relation by phone and data.
Staff and Master-sergeants the best soldiers science and money can produce on this durn planet. Say 5 to 10 of them in a 'company' and they embed with local militia to spread their combat expertise.
Draw real units down to skeletons without retiring actual units and commands. They exist even if they are only a few persons. Make those FEW persons the absolute best soldiers the planet Earth has ever produced, and by-gum mean it.
Retire your real trained soldiers out to the free popular militia of sovereign persons. Have the County elect the commanders. Run the program like Civil Air Patrol for adults
Pay for it with federal money.
Pay for weapons, training, tactical uniforms, equipment. Share the cost with the State. Turn your free volunteer unpaid militia into a real by-gum 21st Century Army hand of death.
Once this process is working, then (continue to) shrink your active component down to about 20% of it's peak size.
In another 20 years, if the process is working very well, reduce active component to 10% and maintain there in perpetuity.
Federal funds are still totally funding the adult civil air patrol like public militia, open and free to all citizens legal to bear arms.
Any US Citizen can participate. Or even stay on pst.
And a homeless person can stand an 8 hour watch, and have a safe place to sleep, a locker to keep his worldly goods, showers, and a hot meal. Gain trust, go up in rank, build relationships, clean up, gain employment, prosper and so on.
And you are still way under half current US DOD spending.
And if China invaded, we'd raise up the biggest and strongest Army the world has ever seen, virtually overnight. Already spread throughout the land by County. It's literally the best of all possible worlds.
A one-star general is friendly with several counties and executive structure and interfaces/coordinates trains with facilitates things.
All of the County Colonels vote for a two-star District Commander
All Colonels and Two-Stars then vote for State Commander who wears four stars.
Three Stars appropriated to staff and divisions and macro-structure command.
Militia posts are public property and paid out of the federal and State treasuries.
Set up like National Guard posts, but more elaborate.
Make a public "Civil Air Patrol" organization for adults with real weapons.
Make it a REAL public militia of sovereign and free public persons according to popular will.
------------------
DOD spending transition to militia and retire out active to civilian to build the thing
Grow the free volunteer militia to 3x current manpower of armed forces. Draw down salaried Battalions, Retain the names of Divisions and Armies and Corps and Battalions and even companies. Maybe a Company is ten of the most elite soldiers what ever marched under the American flag. It is still a Company. It's purpose is to "dock with" an incoming Militia Company in a time of catastrophic war.
A Captain is a liaison with the local militia; helps coordinate and organize structures into larger and more strategic forces for more powerful foes.
Training between these and militia with regularity, but never in continuity. Twice a year on exercises, preferably, and maintain a friendly remote relation by phone and data.
Staff and Master-sergeants the best soldiers science and money can produce on this durn planet. Say 5 to 10 of them in a 'company' and they embed with local militia to spread their combat expertise.
Draw real units down to skeletons without retiring actual units and commands. They exist even if they are only a few persons. Make those FEW persons the absolute best soldiers the planet Earth has ever produced, and by-gum mean it.
Retire your real trained soldiers out to the free popular militia of sovereign persons. Have the County elect the commanders. Run the program like Civil Air Patrol for adults
Pay for it with federal money.
Pay for weapons, training, tactical uniforms, equipment. Share the cost with the State. Turn your free volunteer unpaid militia into a real by-gum 21st Century Army hand of death.
Once this process is working, then (continue to) shrink your active component down to about 20% of it's peak size.
In another 20 years, if the process is working very well, reduce active component to 10% and maintain there in perpetuity.
Federal funds are still totally funding the adult civil air patrol like public militia, open and free to all citizens legal to bear arms.
Any US Citizen can participate. Or even stay on pst.
And a homeless person can stand an 8 hour watch, and have a safe place to sleep, a locker to keep his worldly goods, showers, and a hot meal. Gain trust, go up in rank, build relationships, clean up, gain employment, prosper and so on.
And you are still way under half current US DOD spending.
And if China invaded, we'd raise up the biggest and strongest Army the world has ever seen, virtually overnight. Already spread throughout the land by County. It's literally the best of all possible worlds.
GunnyFreedom
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Oh yeah, and sorry Mrs Feinstein, Joe the Plumber gets a machine gun. And yes, it has the shoulder thing that goes up.
Last edited:
fr33
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Probably not while considering the reasons for it (or lack thereof).
*edit: well after thinking about it, I think you've attempted to catch me in the contradiction where I'm willing to make donations to the local volunteer fire department.
But there is some important factors missing. Never has there been a need for me to donate to missile launchers unlike with the fire department who opposes a real enemy of mine. Funding the current tomahawk program, like Rand says to do, has never benefited me. It's been nothing but a waste that has led to me being more despised than I've earned. That's why it's easy to oppose it.
Last edited:
kcchiefs6465
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That's just a generalization. A perhaps errant one at that.
I am for ending the entirety of corporate welfare.
Cut the DOD's budget to a level that is able to be paid via donation, lottery, or other voluntary methods. Allow people to opt out.
This is a diverse crowd. One might see some strategic advantage in Cruise missiles, other may see a tool for war criminals and profiteers to commit more war crimes/atrocities while bilking the general public out of millions of dollars, while some others might pragmatically argue that Rand Paul has to pander to a certain base to ever have a realistic chance at nomination. I guess it just depends on how you look at it.
By the way, I'm not sure if you've forgotten, or simply haven't had the time to respond, but when you get a chance, I am sure many would like to hear/debate your responses. I am curious myself as to your responses to Bryan's questions.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...uring-the-1950-s-when-the-top-tax-rate-was-91
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...ialized-medicine-quot-have-better-health-care
etc.
jmdrake
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FYI it is possible to build your own cruise missile for about $5,000 in COTS parts. http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile/
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