Rand Paul Exclusive: Arm the Kurds To Battle ISIS and Reward Them With Kurdistan

[juleswin]

Ummmmmm.....Why the hell do you want the Kurds to fight Syria and Turkey? Last time I checked Turkey was a NATO ally. And Syria was an ally in the war on terror until Bush decided that they weren't simply because they didn't agree with his stupid invasion of Iraq.

It gives one a reason to open news bases in the new Kurdistan, maybe US boots on the ground? more weapons made and sold at US tax payers expense to the US created country. This is stupidity beyond belief cos if the Kurds try to take any land of value, the Sunnis, Kurds, Druz, Christians, Alawites in Iraq, Syria would rise up against them and it would be massacre 2.0 just like the time we encouraged the Kurds to rise up against Saddam.

And there's probably be no incentive to rise up and take mineral free lands seeing as they get royalties from Iraq oil sale and have an autonomous rule agreement with Syria and Iraqi governments. This is just calling for further destabilization of the region. Who ever is advising Rand on foreign policy is an idiot.

Syria is an ally of Russia and Iran and the wounded Syria wont be wounded forever. They will be coming for whats theirs when the time is right.

 

[Chieppa1]

Wrong. Read again and read further. The Kurds are buying oil from ISIS and selling it to Turkey. ISIS doesn't need to buy oil from anyone. They are sitting on a shitload of oil. And if the Kurds needed an outlet to sell their oil they sure as hell wouldn't need to sell it to ISIS.

Iraq is bordered by six countries: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait and Turkey. ISIS moves oil and fuel across some of these borders with tanker trucks for sale beyond its borders. Turkey’s southern corridor, Iraq’s northwestern corridor and Syria’s northeastern corridor all contain crossing points. Iraqi Kurdistan is another favorite conduit for oil and fuel, to be sold to Turkey. The regional Kurdish government in Iraq recently arrested some of its own citizens along with a number of Kurdish politicians and security officials for acting as intermediaries in smuggling out oil and fuel on behalf of ISIS.

This is what happened. ISIS took over oil fields in Syria and Northern Iraq. ISIS needs help selling the oil so that they can buy weapons and refined fuel. (They have practically no refining capacity). Some unscrupulous Kurds are working with ISIS to sell ISIS oil to Turkey and Syria. Syria needs the oil because they are cut off from their own oil fields by ISIS and because the are under an embargo thanks to the idiots (traitors?) who have set up U.S. foreign policy. Seriously, folks are spending all of this time reading and reposting over and over again the "What ISIS wants" article and nobody is taking the time to understand how ISIS is funded. I don't give a crap what their goals are. Without money they die.

Also, the Atlantic article was ripped apart by experts in the field (i.e. Patrick Cockburn).

 

[juleswin]

Also, the Atlantic article was ripped apart by experts in the field (i.e. Patrick Cockburn).

Care to post a link of the rebuttal article? I need something to take away the really bad taste in my mouth from reading that silly apologetic excuse of article trying to rational the actions of lunatic invaders.

 

[jmdrake]

Good idea.

Kind of hard for us to control though. How do we stop other nations and foreign nationals from funding ISIS?

Lot's of the money is going through U.S. banks. Take all of the executives from any such bank and line them up and shoot them. But most of their money is coming from selling oil. We've bombed the oil refineries but that doesn't matter because ISIS is selling raw crude for cash and refined fuel. Bomb the damn oil wells. ISIS has no way to repair them. The reason we aren't bombing the oil wells? Obama wants them in tact for a "post Assad Syria."

See: http://www.businessinsider.com/r-is...yrian-oil-flow-despite-us-led-strikes-2014-10
While the raids by U.S. and Arab forces have targeted some small makeshift oil refineries run by locals in eastern areas controlled by Islamic State, they have avoided the wells the group controls.

This has limited the effectiveness of the campaign and means the militants are able to profit from crude sales of up to $2 million a day, according to oil workers in Syria, former oil executives and energy experts.

Washington wants to preserve parts of Syria's oil infrastructure with the hope that they can be used after the war if Islamic State and the forces of President Bashar al-Assad are defeated, a U.S. official said near the start of the bombing campaign.

Seriously. ISIS is making 2 million dollars per day selling oil and we won't take out their oil infrastructure? We are not serious.

And frankly I have no problem against snatch and grabbing a few Kuwaitis. Those bitches owe us big time and they have the nerve to fund ISIS? Seriously, the Newsweek article I posted named these people by name. We can kill little children in drone strikes and call it "collateral damage" but actual terrorist money men, that we KNOW about are able to walk around free like they haven't a care in the world. These oil playboys are punks and would fold as soon as a little pressure was put on them. Of course....this isn't going to happen....because this crap is all fake in the first place. The only reason ISIS exists is because Obama wanted to overthrow Assad and the American people were not behind him. ISIS comes out of nowhere, goes crazy, and all of a sudden 80% of Americans are pro war. Most are ready to drone little kids but few are ready to stare down the money men.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Wrong. Read again and read further. The Kurds are buying oil from ISIS and selling it to Turkey.

Here's what I read:

Which makes ISIS’s oil empire its Achilles’ heel. “ISIS has at least 40,000 fighters and fully armed convoys—we’re talking about hundreds of vehicles—plus, they need to produce enough fuel to satisfy their local populations,” says al-Khatteeb. “That calls for at least 70,000 to 80,000 barrels a day of refined product.” A more comfortable wartime supply, he says, would be even more—around 170,000 to 200,000 barrels a day.

ISIS is able to produce only around a fifth of its oil fields’ total capacity in Iraq and Syria, so ISIS is probably getting help from its oil-rich neighbors, says al-Khatteeb. Cohen has confirmed this, saying that, despite their hostility to ISIS, the Kurds in Iraq, Turkey and Syria have all done deals with ISIS, often through middlemen.

Iraq is bordered by six countries: Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait and Turkey. ISIS moves oil and fuel across some of these borders with tanker trucks for sale beyond its borders. Turkey’s southern corridor, Iraq’s northwestern corridor and Syria’s northeastern corridor all contain crossing points. Iraqi Kurdistan is another favorite conduit for oil and fuel, to be sold to Turkey. The regional Kurdish government in Iraq recently arrested some of its own citizens along with a number of Kurdish politicians and security officials for acting as intermediaries in smuggling out oil and fuel on behalf of ISIS.

So ISIS needs refined products (gasoline). They sell or trade oil on the black market for gas. Saying "the Kurds" are buying oil from ISIS is not very accurate. It's all black market. You might be able to say that some outlaws in the Kurdish region are involved, but they are being arrested and prosecuted by the Kurdish government. I'd guess that the Kurdish officials (and military) are already doing everything they can to stop money (and gas) from going to ISIS.

War profiteering is one thing, but aiding the people who are currently and actively shooting at you would not make much sense, unless you are nothing but a criminal.

 

[Chieppa1]

Care to post a link of the rebuttal article? I need something to take away the really bad taste in my mouth from reading that silly apologetic excuse of article trying to rational the actions of lunatic invaders.

I believe Scott Horton had a few authors on about the article. I know the Atlantic ran a response here.

Also this from a muslim perspective.

The Patrick Cockburn thing I can't find. I know Horton had on his usual crew of super journalists discussing the issue if you want to dig through his archives or podcast on Itunes or his website. Kind of sad how little play his show gets with amount of actual knowledge that spews forth from it on a daily basis.

 

[69360]

Ummmm....the Kurds are buying oil from ISIS. So....how are they going to sell oil to us? By buying it from ISIS?

That's not exactly accurate. The Kurds, Turkey and Assad are buying refined fuel from ISIS controlled refineries. There are no refineries in Kurdish controlled territory. The Kurds have crude oil to sell, lots of it actually, already pumped out of the ground even. But the US actively blocks them from selling it, going as far as to force tankers to turn away from port.

 

[jmdrake]

That's not exactly accurate. The Kurds, Turkey and Assad are buying refined fuel from ISIS controlled refineries. There are no refineries in Kurdish controlled territory. The Kurds have crude oil to sell, lots of it actually, already pumped out of the ground even. But the US actively blocks them from selling it, going as far as to force tankers to turn away from port.

You've got it backwards. ISIS has no refining capability. ISIS sell crude to the Kurds who procure money and refined fuel for ISIS. It's all in the link I provided. If you wish to dispute my references the come up with some of your own.

 

[idiom]

Ummmmmm.....Why the hell do you want the Kurds to fight Syria and Turkey? Last time I checked Turkey was a NATO ally. And Syria was an ally in the war on terror until Bush decided that they weren't simply because they didn't agree with his stupid invasion of Iraq.

Reading for content, I said I don't think they should. I don't think the US should arm them. You seriously think you can arm the Kurds to fight Isis then expect them to hand the weapons back and go back to being abused second class citizens as soon as ISIS is defeated?

This is very typical of American foregin policy, seeing nothing in context, and making no provision for the day after.

It would be the Warsaw Uprising all over again.

 

[jmdrake]

Here's what I read:



So ISIS needs refined products (gasoline). They sell or trade oil on the black market for gas. Saying "the Kurds" are buying oil from ISIS is not very accurate. It's all black market. You might be able to say that some outlaws in the Kurdish region are involved, but they are being arrested and prosecuted by the Kurdish government. I'd guess that the Kurdish officials (and military) are already doing everything they can to stop money (and gas) from going to ISIS.

War profiteering is one thing, but aiding the people who are currently and actively shooting at you would not make much sense, unless you are nothing but a criminal.

A distinction without a difference. Those who are "war profiteering" are "aiding the people who are currently and actively shooting at them." Regardless, the overall point is that the Kurds don't have surplus oil to sell. More on this aspect of the story.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/s...-among-those-buying-isis-oil-official-n232381

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/19/-sp-islamic-state-oil-empire-iraq-isis

Note, I'm not pointing this out to put down the Kurds in general or even the minority that are involved. But considering how much ISIS oil is passing through Kurdish hands, you have no way to tell how much you would be enriching ISIS through an "oil for weapons" program.

 

[juleswin]

Reading for content, I said I don't think they should. I don't think the US should arm them. You seriously think you can arm the Kurds to fight Isis then expect them to hand the weapons back and go back to being abused second class citizens as soon as ISIS is defeated?

This is very typical of American foregin policy, seeing nothing in context, and making no provision for the day after.

It would be the Warsaw Uprising all over again.

Where do people come up with this idea that the kurds are treated like second class citizens? They have an autonomous region in Syria and Iraq (not in Turkey) where they govern themselves. Also the whole region have been suffering from this monster called ISIS the west have unleashed on the people there. How come we seem to care more about the Kurds? How about the Christians? the druz? the jews?, the Alawites? and other minority groups in that region.

I don't know for the life me what makes the kurds anymore special than the other minority groups in the area. And why many Americans seems to think they owe them anything.

 

[idiom]

Where do people come up with this idea that the kurds are treated like second class citizens? They have an autonomous region in Syria and Iraq (not in Turkey) where they govern themselves. Also the whole region have been suffering from this monster called ISIS the west have unleashed on the people there. How come we seem to care more about the Kurds? How about the Christians? the druz? the jews?, the Alawites? and other minority groups in that region.

I don't know for the life me what makes the kurds anymore special than the other minority groups in the area. And why many Americans seems to think they owe them anything.

Why do they need autonomous regions? Oh right... ongoing low-level genocide.

 

[juleswin]

Why do they need autonomous regions? Oh right... ongoing low-level genocide.

The whole region is facing Genocide from ISIS. People forget that Syria is majority Sunni and they are taking the brunt of the death in the war. There is nothing special about the Kurd situation. They are in the same boat with the rest of the groups being attacked by ISIS.

 

[twomp]

Where do people come up with this idea that the kurds are treated like second class citizens? They have an autonomous region in Syria and Iraq (not in Turkey) where they govern themselves. Also the whole region have been suffering from this monster called ISIS the west have unleashed on the people there. How come we seem to care more about the Kurds? How about the Christians? the druz? the jews?, the Alawites? and other minority groups in that region.

I don't know for the life me what makes the kurds anymore special than the other minority groups in the area. And why many Americans seems to think they owe them anything.

Right wing propaganda. The Kurds went from being terrorists to poor victims who are the only freedom fighters in the region. You can thank the GOP and right wing media for that. Besides, our government doesn't really want to get rid of ISIS. If ISIS were gone, they would have to come up with a new boogyman to scare the people into obedience.

 

[Tod]

Flip-flopper

 

[idiom]

The whole region is facing Genocide from ISIS. People forget that Syria is majority Sunni and they are taking the brunt of the death in the war. There is nothing special about the Kurd situation. They are in the same boat with the rest of the groups being attacked by ISIS.

Yeah this week. What about next week?

 

[jmdrake]

Reading for content, I said I don't think they should. I don't think the US should arm them. You seriously think you can arm the Kurds to fight Isis then expect them to hand the weapons back and go back to being abused second class citizens as soon as ISIS is defeated?

This is very typical of American foregin policy, seeing nothing in context, and making no provision for the day after.

It would be the Warsaw Uprising all over again.

I'm just going by what you said. Again.

I love this from Rand. One cannot expect the Kurds to fight ISIS, and fight Syria, and fight Turkey, and then just go home when America is done using them as Cannon Fodder.

You either go all in, or you stay the hell out.

I do not expect the Kurds to fight anybody but ISIS. If they go after the Syrian army they're hurting not helping, the situation despite the lies Obama and McCain and Lindsey Graham and Charles Krauthammer of Fox news and Cynthia Amanpour keep forcing down the throats of the American people. And if they attack Turkey they are asking for it. They should use their weapons to defend their autonomous region in Iraq. That's their "homeland." That's the refuge from genocide. Attacking Turkey is inviting genocide. And frankly from that perspective, Rand's suggestion that Turkey give up territory is inviting an attack on Turkey. Cannon fodder? Please. ISIS is bunch of CIA inspired punks. Also I believe in the right of self defense applies to the Kurds as much as to anyone. Frankly I believe all of these ventures should by funded through private funds. Rand could sponsor a "moneybomb" to by guns for the Kurds. (Pun very much intended). But if we are going to supply any group with weapons it's better to give them to the Kurds than to the on again/off again ISIS allies that are the FSA.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

I'm just going by what you said. Again.

I love this from Rand. One cannot expect the Kurds to fight ISIS, and fight Syria, and fight Turkey, and then just go home when America is done using them as Cannon Fodder.

You either go all in, or you stay the hell out.

What I do love about Rand, at his verbal dancing devious best, is hs crazy jujitsu reconstructive way of throwing neocon/war party talking points back them, in a way that either mouse-traps their rhetoric, or blows up the mouse traps outright. One example is "we need to ensure the safety and security of Israel in the region," to which Rand might reply "we certainly do, and one of the best ways to do that is to stop destabilizing the region by creating a more extremist jihadi Wonderland than the one we started with." That is, stop meddling and expanding military action everywhere, which is what is fostering the Muslim extremism and blowback.This mousetraps the "Israel's security" talking point.

Six months ago, the war hawk talking point was "let's arm Iraqis to combat ISIS, since they are eager to take on the enemy, so they can fight the battle themselves." Then, it seems like the SECOND that support was approved, the rhetoric got ramped up to "oh my, it's not working, so we need to put boots on the ground, and go all in!" Just like Bay of Pigs, the militarists commit us part way, then say later (when things go south) that we're betraying the success of the mission unless we escalate. In both instances, the hawks probably knew the locals couldn't succeed---they were just used to prop the door open for more US intervention.

Rand is aware of this pro-war ramp up tactic, so by advocating an approach that has already clearly failed in the last six months, he's drawing attention to the mousetrap, thereby blowing it up. At the least, he gets another chance to wax hawk-like rhetorically, to insulate him from being characterized as weak or "isolationist." In substance, the notion won't be implemented, since it already was. Defacto outcome is, his proposal results in no net increased intervention. The way to understand Rand's utterances is to look to the defacto result, not whether it sounds good on principle.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

While the raids by U.S. and Arab forces have targeted some small makeshift oil refineries run by locals in eastern areas controlled by Islamic State, they have avoided the wells the group controls.

Taking out an ISIS controlled refinery in Syria...

US-LED COALITION AIRSTRIKES HIT IS-HELD REFINERY

Coalition warplanes bombed a refinery near the Syrian town of Tel Abyad on the Turkish border late Sunday, lighting up the night sky with an enormous fireball, activists said. The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the strikes killed some 30 people.

The U.S. military's Central Command said in a statement Monday that coalition aircraft struck an IS "modular oil refinery" near the town of Kobani on the Turkish border. Kobani is 50 kilometers (30 miles) from Tel Abyad.

The Islamic State group, which controls about a third of Syria and Iraq, sells black-market oil to help fund its conquests, making makeshift refineries and other fuel-related facilities in IS-held territory frequent targets for coalition jets.
...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/09/isis-german-killed_n_6830302.html

 

[idiom]

I do not expect the Kurds to fight anybody but ISIS.

They have been fighting everyone for 30+ years.

If the US comes in and says 'we will support you' then you are leading them on if you don't mean it. They will fight harder and over-stretch themselves if they believe support will arrive. Then when it doesn't, they will be slaughtered.

Much better for them to do what they can to maintain the status quo and hope ISIS directs their attention in other directions.