Rand is supporting gun control, I'm done supporting him

unknown said:
Principles of freedom aside, it is absolutely naive to believe these watch lists are comprised of just "terrorists".
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I never said they were.

At which point does it become an issue for "liberty minded" people.

Watch lists that continue to grow in perpetuity, when the list hits 5 million, 10 million, a 100 million?
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For the 4th time now, it's not the list which is the problem, it's what's done with the list.

If no unjust action is being taken against anyone on the list (e.g. preventing them from buying a gun without a hearing), there's no problem.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
I never said they were.


For the 4th time now, it's not the list which is the problem, it's what's done with the list.

If no unjust action is being taken against anyone on the list (e.g. preventing them from buying a gun without a hearing), there's no problem.
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But they are already used to restrict people's activity (flying), to travel/move freely.
 
Matt Collins said:
You're free to be as ignorant as you want to be.
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I'm not ignorant. You're just lying.

You're like that guy I knew in college who bragged about getting hit with tracer fire while defending his uncle's castle, but didn't have any scars from it.
 
I never thought I'd see the day where Matt Collins became the voice of uncompromising principle.

Have some of you people lost your ever fucking rabid ass minds?

This bill is trash, and Rand should have nothing to do with it.
 
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r3volution 3.0 said:
For the third time, keeping a list of possible terrorists =/= violating the rights of anyone on that list.

It's perfectly possible to have a watch list, and only take any action against people on that list through due process.
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So that's your idea of freedom?
 
Anti Federalist said:
I never thought I'd see the day where Matt Collins became the voice of uncompromising principle.

Have some of you people lost your ever fucking rabid ass minds?

This bill is trash, and Rand should have nothing to do with it.
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I haven't looked into who voted or didn't vote for the bill, but one thing that was mentioned was that it is possible that a lot of strong gun control advocates didn't vote for this bill because they didn't think it went far enough and maybe Rand knows we will end up with something much worse if this one doesn't pass. So by voting for this one, which he knows won't pass anyway, but it will give him more sway when he argues against the next, much worse gun bill.

I don't know what his strategy is or what he is trying to do here - I do believe that if it were up to Rand we would have more gun freedoms that we currently have.
 
dannno said:
I haven't looked into who voted or didn't vote for the bill, but one thing that was mentioned was that it is possible that a lot of strong gun control advocates didn't vote for this bill because they didn't think it went far enough and maybe Rand knows we will end up with something much worse if this one doesn't pass. So by voting for this one, which he knows won't pass anyway, but it will give him more sway when he argues against the next, much worse gun bill.
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I think that's right.

If there were no political implications, I wouldn't vote for this bill, and I suspect Rand wouldn't either.

...though as I say libertarians of good conscience can disagree on this, it's not inherently unlibertarian (just unnecessary IMO).

But there are political implications. This very modest proposal helps neutralize the genuinely menacing things being proposed by the left.
 
r3volution 3.0 said:
What exactly is your objection?
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Because to have such a list, it means that you have investigated this person on some level, and found something "questionable" in their background (and we know how government defines that) in order to place them on that list.

I don't find clandestine government investigations and "watch lists" to have any place in a free society.

But I guess I must have fallen on my head when I got out bed this morning...idiot me, thinking we lived in anything even remotely resembling a free society.
 
Anti Federalist said:
Because to have such a list, it means that you have investigated this person on some level, and found something "questionable" in their background (and we know how government defines that) in order to place them on that list.

I don't find clandestine government investigations and "watch lists" to have any place in a free society.
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Since investigations cannot, by their nature, be made public, the implication is that there should be no investigations at all.

Is that your position?
 
Anti Federalist said:
I never thought I'd see the day where Matt Collins became the voice of uncompromising principle.
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I've always been uncompromising... but minor things that don't matter, don't matter.


Voting for gun control isn't minor, and it does matter which is why I can't tolerate it, even if it is from Rand. If Ron did the same thing I'd be calling him out too.
 
Anti Federalist said:
No "pre crime" investigations, of course not.
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What do you mean?

The FBI should only investigate people after a crime's been committed?

There should be no effort to uncover criminal plots before they're carried out?

If so, why? Whose rights are being violated?
 
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